David Mantell

A nice live poster from the FR3 era, 1986, filched from Bob Plantin's page. All your favourite soon to be stars of Eurosport New Catch (well the French "home team" ones anyway) and plenty of future stars of the IWSF.

Ha, I belong to the Commonwealth so technically I can say whatever I want. Amen. That's how it works here as well. For now! It's not really about where you're from. It's about what wrestling you were reared on as a novice fan.

Well I know of two Marty/Caswell rematches and my favourite Saint/Faulkner 1-1 draw was a rematch from an earlier NC. Faulkner and Mick McMichael got about 8 bouts out of a variety of finishes. I'm fine with that as long as they don't then turn round and say that for decades the combined UK (or even European) wrestling industry and its public were Getting It All Wrong.

Like I said, the alternative would have been a 1-1 draw which possibly shut the door on a potential rematch. To be honest though, I get so engrossed by the action in that bout that the finish doesn't feel that important to me. It's just how it was brought to a halt.

They don't have to be British, they just have to open their minds to how other fans have other definitions of good or bad.

It's a way of curtailing what would otherwise be a 1-1 Broadway. But the "oh what a pity, it was all going so splendidly" aspect really meant something to these fans and would have them calling out for a rematch ASAP, whereas a straight up draw would just leave fans accepting them as equals, end of story.

Can they? Or are they just applying their own preconceptions to a style that doesn't fit them?

This is the issue- I don't agree that there is a one size fits all approach to analysing and grading different pro wrestling styles from across the globe. Re. "Pallette" my point there was that certain finishes that you dismiss as awful. (Knockout, DQ, No Contest) fans of those other wrestling cultures may regard as highly effective and therefore should not be condemned out of hand when they occur in those other styles of pro wrestling.

How to do DQs effectively. (Even better than the Cool Cat Vs Buffalo bout) Ulf Herman is in a handicap against former enemies Jones and Murphy. Actually less of a handicap tag and more of a Four Horsemen beatdown angle with the two English constantly kicking Herman while the ringside MC calls on them to SCHTOP! SCHTOP!! Heman does occasionally get an advantage but double teZming brings him down again. Gradually the referee and MCs -and the audience's patience is worn thin by this and when the ref DQ the team after they give him an extended ringside beatdown, the MC gives them a LONG lecture in his broken English about what an utterly disgraceful shameful pair of naughty boys they are! "JONES! MURPHY!! YOU ARE DISQUALIFIED!! YOU ARE DISQUALIFIED!!" Felling as well be hung for a sheep than a lamb, they then beat down the ref. "YOU WILL GET NO WAGES!!!" shouts the MC so they thump him too and go backstage to no doubt grab their money and make it a police issue. The audience are left in no doubt that these two are a disgrace to wrestling and deserve absolutely nothing and have gotten what they deserve (unless they have since resorted beyond ring villainy to actual civil crime.) A badly beaten up referee raises the hand of a badly beaten up Ulf. Referee and babyface have won the match but lost the fight but at least have the public support to hold their bashed-in heads up and celebrate common decency and honest citizenry. ****†************* By the way, at the start Herman cuts a promo at what appears to be Haumarkt in Vienna prior to a show. I wish we could have had a promo from Jones and Murphy also - Jones became a much better talker after his UK heel turn in 1992.

Well to be fair I've come across plenty of Americans who accept and enjoy European, especially British wrestling and accept that it is a different beast. And I've met many fellow Brits who treat "old school" as some sort of crime against Smartness on a par with Bob Backlund getting the WWWF title in 1978 If a long haired Led Zeppelin fan were criticizing it for the lack of virtuoso guitar pyrotechnics and the songs only being 3:minutes long then yeah that would be unreasonable. Calling CTC a poor reheat of the Clash's first album without the spirit or chemistry of the original (less still the original 1977 UK Vinyl tracklisting before Epic watered it down for Americans by chopping out Deny, Cheat, Protex Blue, 48 Hours and the original White Riot) is however a fair cop. Better analogy - using Corporate, sorry, Combat Rock as stick to beat CTC is unreasonable since CTC was intended as a backlash against Combat Rock (Such was the intention of the horrible production, an attempt to do punk lo fi). However. using the original UK 1977 vinyl version of the first Clash album as a stick to beat CTC is fair game since CTC is a poor attempt at doing another punk album.

See, this was one of my favourite bouts ever, but would you write it off on account of the No Contest (Refused TKO) finish?

If a long haired Led Zeppelin fan were criticizing it for the lack of virtuoso guitar pyrotechnics and the songs only being 3:minutes long then yeah that would be unreasonable. Calling CTC a poor reheat of the Clash's first album without the spirit or chemistry of the original (less still the original 1977 UK Vinyl tracklisting before Epic watered it down for Americans by chopping out Deny, Cheat, Protex Blue, 48 Hours and the original White Riot) is however a fair cop.

Okay.how about this from page 1: Emphasis on that line because OJ and myself go into a more detailed debate about this on this thread here: It's not particularly you, it's more a general disagreement I have with fans brought up on American wrestling, even Brits brought up on WWE. Although yes OJ and myself have gone hammer and tongs about it. The whole eye of the beholder thing is why I felt inclined to warn against lists of top matches but there is one on that page 1 for you.

Yes, this is more like it! Doc and Robbie were not yet the Liverpool Lads in 1988 although they had tagged up together as teenagers on the holiday camp circuit in 1984-1985. Doc made his one ITV appearance around this time while Robbie was immersed in the Golden Boys tag team with Regal. (Referee is another Liverpool lad, All Star boss Brian Dixon). They still have a fine match here with Dean realty rolling out from Robbie throws, from a side chancery and a whip. Robbie rolls to untwist armbars but Doc keeps his grip and develops the lever into an armscissors and and armhank. Doc even keeps control through a Brookside monkey climb, scissoring the wrist for good measure and using the arm force cross buttock and pin attempt. He even regains the arm after withstanding a leapfrog into snapmares, a reverse scoot through the legs , a fireman's carry, repeated headlock attempts. Brookside takes over with an ankle lock. developed into a leglock while Doc tries to regain the arm. After they get up for some running action, Robbie drop toehold trips Doc into a figure four toehold with cross face (again, almost an STF) then a Boston Crab. Doc reaches the ropes and It's back to running action as Robbie scores two bodychecks and Doc a Great Muta reverse shoulder lock. Robbie waistlocks Doc Dean into a folding press for a 2 count and inner forearms him (clothesline was a new word in 1988) for another pin which Doc bridges out of. Doc rears out of Robbie's full nelson and sunset flips him for a 2 count of his own and then two more tries with a leapfrog into double leg takedown folder and another held by the legs from which which Robbie crawls free. Robbie goes from headlock to upper armlock working on the shoulder then back to headlock then into a further nelson pin attempt which Doc bridges out of beautifully (despite the recently worked-on shoulder). Doc nearly gets a KO with a backdrop, Robbie flying bodyscissor throws Doc and hooks the legs but Doc "bascules" (as French commentators called it) Robbie straight into the corner pad - talk about Running Out Of Mat. Doc tries another cross buttock and press pin with the arm from earlier, Robbie tries a backslide, both only get 2, Doc rolling off the backslide nicely. Doc misses another cross buttock and Brookside flying tackles him for another couple of 2 counts. Robbie drop toeholds into another figure 4 toehold and goes for the facelock - almost that STF but doc resists, keeping flat on the mat. Robbie tries for a KO with a Rude Awakening and a pin with a Russian Leg sweep, Doc bridges out. Doc drops Robbie backwards. Robbie doubles up Doc with a knees and then German suplexes him finishing it off with a bridge to get the three for the win. A fine classic technical match to remind us how much better the late Ian Doc Dean could be than that Germany throwaway with John Kenny and also that later period Reslo was not just about cages. chains, razzmatazz and other such imported Americana, there was a solid backbone of classic s identification British wrestling there.

Dealing with dancing first - in Dave Taylor and Alex Wright's case it was a German idea that white meat babyfaces should be dancing pretty boys rather like the spare members of a boy and. Blame it on the cultural impact of Take That and Boyzone. Here, I think Orig was trying to do his own version of Flesh Gordon 's skimpily dressed dolly birds in late 80s/early 90s France. There was a lot of cultural interest in the 90s running into the 00s in fab N groovy seventies kitsch, from clubs like Plastic Palace People to the Flares nightclub chain to movies like the Austin Powers series. It even found its way to WCW with Mike Awesome's "That 70s Guy" character. What's slightly more odd is giving him the Des Moines name and billing him from Canada - most fans in Britain knew exactly who he was! Danny seems to be a bit of a hybrid here - he turned heel on Doc and Robbie iBrookside in Croydon nearly a year earlier and has his Dirty Dan leotard on but is introduced as Danny Boy and not doing very much in the way of heeling - he gets a mixed reception from fans, some of whom knows what he's been doing lately, most of them just know him of old and cheer him although Disco/Doc is clearly the favourite. (Dean had his own heel past - teaming with Jimmy Ocean in France on New Catch- ironically against Danny!). Danny doesn't really do anything illegal here, in fact at the end he and Dean shake hands like good sportsmen, so I would have to conclude that Danny has reverted back into blue eye mode for this bout. There are a few bits of good technical wrestling - a Doc Dean folding press which Danny smartly crawls out of, Danny reversing a Doc figure four headscissors into a Frank Gotch figure four toehold and then switching to a facelock, now if only he'd kept hold of the toehold and made it an STF!!! - and some nice aerial bits such as one powerful dropkick from each man and Doc's winning flying bodypress at the end. Mostly it's a battle of power as the now bulkier Collins (who over the next year or so will relinquish the World Middleweight and British Heavyweight Middleweight titles and unseat Alan Kilby for the British Light Heavyweight Championship) pounds away of Dean like he was Ax or Smash of Demolition and Dean gamely returns fire. I wanted to post a good scientific Doc Dean match as an antidote to the bout with John Kenny on the German thread. This has its momeybut it's not quite what I was after. How about ...

Similar remarks apply. George Burgess who died last year first got attention as vulnerable loser the Jamaica Kid getting squashed by Kendo Nagasaki in summer 175 and a heel Big Daddy in February 1976. By the mid/late 80s he had put on weight and age and become Jamaica George, mid carder for hire, but on Reslo in Wales and in Germany hecwad Cool Cat Jackon- most likely Orig's idea. Brehney (or Buffalo Beany as British promoters called him) doesn't even bother to wrestle much in this bout, he just constantly attacks CCJ with a leather belt until the referee gets fed up and disqualifies him. ITV would probably have refused to show it. It's good in that it illustrated a DQ Being applied after a wrestler proves his inferiority through being unable or unwilling to compete and conform to the rules. Another promo at the start, this time from Jackson. FAO British accent spotters , he's doing a rural Somerset accent from the Southwest, the one the rest of the world knows as the Pirate Accent (Arrrrrr........). A little bit odd to hear a blck guybdona rural West Country accent, but it is what is is.

Another bout that could just have easily been on a Brian Dixon or Orig Williams show of the same period. Or even a WWF undecardTen minute start of the show match to get them in a good mood. Next to no technical wrestling (and Doc Dean who was British Welterweight Champion at the time was capable of better) but it made the crowd happy. Kenny does a promo at the start very much in the style of ITV promo's of 1987-1988 which does go to show that this is not just bootleg fan cam but officially sanctioned footage probably meant to be resold at the merch stands.

It seems to be the problem with fans brought up on American Wrestling that they will condemn British matches for reasons that do not apply and would have been alien to the original British audiences. The insinuation seems to be that the whole of the British and indeed the European business was somehow "getting it wrong" - to which I have to ask why is the American way of doing wrestling just assumed to be the correct definitive way?

It would be more an issue if you were criticizing them based on cultural expectations that did not relate to the original context. If you are enjoying them, go ahead and enjoy it. I did A Level Spanish at school and studied Golden Age Spanish literature as part of the course. We did Pedro Calderon De La Barca's La Vida Es Sueno from the 1600s. Our teacher forbade us from reading ahead of him because we had all studied Shakespeare in English classes but Spanish theatre of that same period was based on very different principles (a strong emphasis on poetic justice for example) and he did not want us mistakenly applying Shakespeare's rules to Calderon. Or more to the point he did not want us thinking Calderon was a rubbish playwright whose plays didn't make sense and who should have taken some tips from a "REAL" writer like Shakespeare.

That was rather the point as far as the original audiences for European wrestling, especially the devout fans, were concerned. Especially with British wrestling which at its best was about, as Kent Walton said, "skill and speed combined" - lots of clever micro details coming hard and fast. Even those fans who just wanted "rough and tumble" between a good guy and a bad guy were made to feel like they OUGHT to appreciate the skilful clean bouts and that it would make them not just a better wrestling fan but a better person too to acquire the taste for more sophisticated wrestling rather than mere "vugar" crowd psychology. With France they developed a different style, particularly in the tag matches but also among the lighter weight wrestlers like Michel Saulnier, Le Petit Prince and Vasillious Mantopolous that emphasized agility rather than technical ingenuity, although again combined with speed. "Il est tres SOUPLE" seems to have been the highest compliment the French TV commentators could pay to a wrestler. Germany/Austria is an odd case. At the time the Home Video releases started being filmed circa 1979/1980 there appears to have been an older generation around including Axel Dieter Senior, Achim Chall, Jorg Chenok, Roland Bock etc who relied on a slow rigorous style that involved getting a hold and milking it for every last possibility of adjustment of leverage and every last drop of emotion. Mile Zrno appears to have been the youngest who worked this style. After that, there was a revolution in the German/Austrian style when Steve Wright permanently relocated to Germany and began teaching the young generation including his son Alex the British technical style. Consequently by the mid 90s there was a blossoming wave of young technical workers like Ulf Herman. Ecki Eckstein etc similar to that in Britain a decade earlier with Danny Collins, Kid McCoy etc. French and German/Austrian fans seem to have appreciated British-style clean technical sportsmanly bouts but it was not so much part of their staple diet as it was for British audiences. All the European territories had tropes which tend to confuse a fan brought up on American wrestling, not least the wider pallete of finishes with, for example, a countout being called a Knockout and presented as a better and more emphatic way to win than two falls or submissions. Similarly the use of a technical knockout as a shorter alternative to the time limit draw, or the slow build towards a disqualification of a heel through acquiring three public warnings/Avertisements/yellow cards. These were NOT seen as cheap finishes, they were seen as legitimate and accepted as satisfactory by the audience. Another example of this is much of what American fans write off as "Rest .Holds". In Europe especially in Britain, more often than not, these are the set up stage for a clever skillful escape hold. A side headlock on the mat in Britain is not just a cover for the work coming to a stop, it is the set-up for a clever handstanding move to lever oneself out of the headlock - and often into a hold of ones own for the opponent then to escape from and continue the chain. All three territories seem to have made a major concession to sheer commercial appeal in the 1980s - in Germany the boom in CWA title matches pitting an increasingly obese Otto Wanz against numerous visiting Americans. In France it was a more general trend towards gimmickry and cartooniness (compared to some eras of Memphis wrestling especially the early USWA) of which Flesh Gordon, despite having been a decent worker back then, has come to be seen as the embodiment. In Britain it was the subordination of the entire Joint Promotions product to being a feeder for Big Daddy and his lopsided kiddy-friendly tag matches. The three "extinct" territories of Mediterranean Southern Europe - Spain. Italy and Greece - each had their own styles and tropes although we have less footage of these to get our heads around the styles.

It boils down to whether you view British Wrestling- and the other old school European territories- as Defective or Different? You can insist on judging it through the eyes of American fans or you can understand how it was consumed by indigenous European fans.

@WingedEagle the above illustrated the problem of making definitive recommendation lists. European and North American wrestling fans were educated by the respective promoters to have different expectations of what constitutes "Good wrestling" - sometimes there can even be variations between different European countries or different US/Canadian regions.

France and Britain had quite different styles of tag wrestling. The 30-40 minute tag match with all 3 falls scored in the last 10 minutes is a peculiarly French thing. In Britain they were 20-25 min with the falls evenly spaced- Big Daddy tags are the most extreme manifestation of the Babyface* Hot Tag in the entire worldwide history of pro wrestling. * should be blue-eye in the UK

Jorg Chenok, son of 50s star Karl Von Chenok, former European Welterweight champion on at least one occasion when he turned up as "Baron Von Chenok" to the 1985 FA Cup Final TV Tapings to lose said title to Danny Collins (the title would be Collins's passport to regular touring of France and Northern Spain with the FFCP and EWF.) According to Ken Walton however, Chenok had been champion for four years and four defences after winning the title from Wolfgang Saturski (whom we saw facing Yasu Fuji several pages back. Here he is up against countryman Markus Bucholz. We get a nice tasty title sequence with flaring red graphics at each other and trading verbal barbs before agreeing to med and a fat German bloke in the locker room followed by the two opponents pointing at each other, trading insults before agreeing to meet in the ring . Bucholz looks like a young Robert Duranton. Chenok is older, has lost his moustache and appears to have a combo,ver. Young Markus dominates the older man with big flashy moves like cross buttock throws, feet first landings from throws by Chenok., bodychecks etc. Chenok takes over with a battery culminating in a kneedrop from which he gets a Nine ciount. Chenok dominated large portions of the match using roughhouse but legal tactics with Bucholz mfiring back now and then with some nice escapes from headscissors and a Victory Faulkner distraction trick or two, but with the old man still dominating until after an eternity of nearly being knocked out over and over again, out of nowhere young Bucholz pulls out a folding press pin. The first time he gets two before Chenok kicks the ropes. So hecadjusts his position,mtries again and gets the pin. Old versus young bout with ok LD having it all its way dragging it down to an Axel Dieter Sr generation bout until the sudden win for Young at the end. Bucholz really should have had more of a chance to show what he could do.

By 1992 German/Austrian audiences were accustomed to the idea of Marty Jones as a heel teaming with members of the Riot Squad. We have already seen 1990 footage of Jones and Finlay teamed together as heels. In Britain this was a new idea after old archenemies Jones and Finlay, forced to team together at Croydon, got on surprisingly well as a team, leading to a change in philosophy for Jones from quiet sportsmanly champion to arrogant boasting "World's Number One." This then could have been a typical hot main event or upper card match on an All Star show in Britain at the time. The future Wildcat Robbie's first non-Nagasaki induced heel turn (on Doc Dean) was still three years off - at this stage Robbie and Doc were the same white meat blue eyes in the German speaking world as The Liverpool Lads were in Blighty. There's not much in the way of technical chain wrestling exchanges here, Doc Dean rolls out of a Marty Jones armbars then follows up by using a whip to force a bad landing for Jones. Early on there is a fair amount of side headlocks being broken open into top wristlocks, skips over each other while coming off the ropes. Mostly however it's a dirty tactics fest rather than a brawl. The villains bash their way out of holds rather than do clever escapes. Murphy punches his way out of a sunset flip without getting a yellow card (Fit Finlay got a public warning on ITV for doing this to Johnny Saint. Still it's better than it just being ignored like when numerous American white meat babyfaces at the time punched their way out of a heel hold and we're supposed to accept it as clean wrestling. Even more ironically, the Liverpool Lads get a yellow card each for twin scooting dropkicks to the baddies. The falls are all pretty good. Skull gets the opening submission with his Gator hold on Doc Dean, with thread. He's been bashing the good Doc around so much before the first fall that once the opener is delivered, it looks for a bit like Dean has gone down for a TKO, Robbie is kneeling over him tending to him until the referee orders him out of face Doc being DQd. Doc recovers and eventually he and Robbie get an equaliser with a rocket launcher a la Midnight Expres. Doc nearly gets a decider with a moonsault into flying bodypress.and finally Jones takes the first but breaks the second of two Monkey Climbs by Robbie. Landing him in the ropes and finishing him with a face first (tombstone) piledriver. Not much science but plenty of action. The next year Skull and Robbie were back in Germany, the latter with a BBC Video Diary camera, warring early in the evening before packing off to sing karaoke together later each night. Breaking kayfabe was never so much fun!