David Mantell

Which style are you referring to? Osprey's high flying stuff or Old School British Wrestling? If you mean the latter then grrr, frankly. 😄 (unless you're serious in which case you and I need to have a debate)

From Bob Plantin's FB page "Two Frenchmen, for a championship from the world, in Spain _GILBERT LEDUC vs RENE BEN CHEMOUL" (autotranslated) Also on there Quasimodo/ the promoter of LCDR and the great Victorio Ochoa! I expect "Font" was Salvador Font (see profile - and IIRC a clip or two - on page 2 of this thread).

I shall be posting separate matches involving both Tony Spitfire and Jack Starz to the British and German threads at the weekend and you can judge for yourself. I have seen both live and saw Tony working as a ring announcer less than 2 months ago. Nino and Jordan I have not seen in the flesh but have seen plenty of on Youtube, particularly on my Smart TV, to the point where they are regular current TV wrestlers in my life.

The salient point.

Add structure - the classic structure of an American wrestling match is (1) Initial babyface pop (2) Heel Heat (2) Babyface comeback into face win or heel screwjob win. However, when you have two blue eye (babyface) teams (or solo opponents) in a clean sportsmanly match, this obviously becomes redundant.

On a general level Mason, Allmark, Breaks, Bryant and others including Robbie Dynamite (Berzins), Tony Spitfire, Jack Starz, Harry Sefton and Nino's younger brothers Xander and Leland have perpetuated the Traditional British style into the 21st century whereas Osprey and ZSJr are just two guys who fit the bill of what is deemed trendy by the US indie cognoscenti and who just so happen to b3 British. Teenage Mason was the hot prospect Old School British Wrestling needed in the mid 90s, regarded by some as the last great product of the old time system of brining up talent in the game, (FOOTNOTE: some would argue he shares that distinction with Jason Cross and Justin Hansford and I could add a couple more mid 1990s names like Stevie Bee and Robbie Michaels, but anyway ...) a light in the seeming oncoming darkness of tribute act hell By the Noughties he had the reputation of being able to have a great match with even the proverbial broomstick (no less than Chic Cullen has used those terms in private correspondence to me when discussing James) and charming good guy while equally capable as both a thuggish villain and a slightly edgy tweener on the verge of getting upset with a situation and going heel. Dean Allmark was in 2001 the frontman of a crew of around half a dozen teenage rookies from the Staffordshire area whose hardcore promotion GBH was shut down by the local council and who were retrained from scratch by All Star veterans into an entire new generation of Old Schoolies. If Mason kept the lights on, the Staffs gang banished the darkness permanently. The charismatic and boyish Allmark quickly became star turn of this crew and a natural top blue eye for All Star for many years. His long running feud with fellow Staffs crowder Robbie Dynamite was for several years the natural match of the night on many All Star shows. Mason and Allmark's style meshed well enough for them to have state of the art Grad Brit matches. While some saw mason go into paranoid heel mode others remained technical masterpieces to the climax Jordan Breaks is a blossoming retro wonder, a serious scholar of the less flashy lights of yesteryear - such as his namesakes Mike "Flash" Jordan and Jim Breaks. Often breaking out in the modern era spots and sequences last seen decades earlier and breathing new life into them. Current British Lightweight Champion Nino Bryant is the heir apparent to the lineage of the great parade of TBW wonderkids in the 70s/80s like Bobby Ryan. Dynamite Kid (whom the curly mopped Nino physically resembles.) Davey Boy, Danny Collins, Kid MCoy etc. Able to on the one hand have speed and skill masterpieces for his title and on the other to be the raging fuming underdog in his feud with heavier arrogant heel Tate Mayfairs. The emergence of his kid brothers Xander and Leland have allowed Nino to walk his first miles in the shoes of the experienced veteran helping to build a younger generation, jobbing a trophy tournament final his his brother and giving him a competitive title match before ultimately retaining, germinating the next generation.

Damn, was planning to review this one at the weekend, but it seems I've already done it. Never mind, I've got a great alternative lined up.

I personally get tied of him and Zack Sabre Jr being shoved down my throat as the best this country has while James Mason and Dean Allmark - and more receontly Jordan Breaks or Nino Bryant - get overlooked or even deliberately ignored. But that's just me.

I'd go beyond what OJ says and put it forward that structure and pyschology were not native characteristics of Old School Western European wrestling cultures like they were of American/Canadian wrestling and that it is necessary to backpedal on the strict requirement for structure and pschology in order to appreciate Trad Euro, especially Trad Brit, the way an original fan of these territories would have appreciated them. That's not to say that such ideas never found their way across the Atlantic, but when they did they were very much an exotic outside influence. I do love Saint/Faulkner from Oldham 1981. It's the bout I post to WWEers on Facebook to stretch their perceptions of what wrestling can be.

The referee is the unsung blue eye/babyface of the 1972 Street/Breaks match, keeping control of these two notorious villains and getting a good technical 1-1 draw out of them with only 1 public warning seconds before the end.

Thanks for that, will check it out. I've already got a 2019 EWP match earmarked for the German thread for this weekend but this can slot in for the weekend after. Paco Ramirez sounds an interesting opponent - a complaining Spanish heel, Gerard "Flesh Gordon" Hervé's debut French TV opponent in 1979 IIRC. Interesting to see if Street is the babyface or if it's heel vs heel like the Breaks match.

I only know of one (vs Axel Dieter Senior 1981). He's almost a babyface there. He still does his act but it's almost like him and Axel are politely flirting with each other as an expression of sportsmanship! AFAIK the only other pre America bouts in circulation are: (1) The Hells Angels (Street and Bobby Barnes) vs The Dennisons (Alan Dennison and Sid Cooper) 1960s 8mm fading colour fancam (2-4) World Of Sport/ midweek late evening ITV vs Jim Breaks, Mick McMichael and Dave Barrie (son of Les Kellett who faced Barnes on the same broadcast) (5) Jackie Pallo Promotions home video cum pilot for a (declined) share of ITV coverage - teamed with Steve Kelly to lose to Pallo And Son (Jackie and JJ) In both the last bout and the German bout with Axel, Street has a beard which was later cropped down to form the muttonchop sideburns he sported in 80s America

Here in Britain you can tell peoples' age by asking them who Fit Finlay's sidekick is. Young 'uns say Hornswoggle. Old 'Uns say Princess Paula. Probably also true in Germany/Austria. Finlay's feud over the World Mid Heavyweight Championship with Marty Jones - including his defence against Steve Logan mk2 were MAGNIFICENT as was a Clean Match putting an on-his-best-behaviour blue eye (babyface) Finlay Vs fellow blue eye Davey Boy Smith in 1982 as an eliminator for a shot at Alan Kilby's British Heavy Middleweight Championship title. (Finlay went heel again to win the actual title but lost it back to Kilby in a return match, this cycle happening a total of 3 times)) During 1985-1990 Finlay was given a push as a bully boy heel, part of which involved a feud with him and Big Daddy stalking each other at shows. During this period Finlay had a tendency to "work strong" and his technical skills went out of the window as he brutally beat down on lighter opponents. Jackie Turpin (brother of tragic boxing champion Randolph Turpin) got a decent match out of him, so did Johnny Saint and Chic Cullen (who won the belt off Kilby the course of losing the British Heavy Middleweight title to Finlay) but the other main outcome of this period was one of his poor helpless victims, 18 year old British & European Welterweight Champion Danny Collins who began a slow mission to get revenge. This started with Danny suffering some narrow competitive loses to Finlay such as at Croydon 1988 (for the "Mick McManus World Of Wrestling" videotape) culminating in 1989 with Danny winning the said Brit H-Mid title off Finlay - a year too late for ITV - plus a coda in 2012 when middle aged veteran heel Dirty Dan Collins took it upon himself to beat down on rookie Fit Finlay Jr at a Croydon show "as payback for all the beatings your dad gave me!" Finlay and Paula split up in real life in about 1991ish when Finlay was British Heavyweight Champion. He later had a great match at a 1992 Euro Catch Festival with Jushin Liger (formerly Flying Fuji Yamada in the UK). Finlay and the UK Skull Murphy (Peter Northey , son of 60s star Charles "Roy Bull Davies" Northey) were a pretty hot heel tag team in the early 80s and they had a passable reunion in the early 90s, mostly on Welsh Language TV. Ike all good heels of his era, he had a one night blue eye stand against mega heel Kendo Nagasaki circa 1990. Finlay's ring act with Paula pussywhipping him for losing falls - was a big hit with British audiences at the time although apparently many American fans find it unsettling.

I like this one a lot (despite the silly lady having hysterics at ringside.) British Accent trainspotters take note - that's a Northamptonshire (East Midlands) accent from Mr Joyce at the end - "Johnny Saint beat me FAYER and SQUAYER!"

Okay, I posted a vlog about the CWA to the German thread and an interview documetary about Popoff and his Catch memorabilia collection to the French thread so what to post for this one? Peter Thornley, the man behind the mask of Kendo Nagasaki has recently uploaded (and probably isn't done with yet) a bunch of interesting monologue videos about various old colleagues, contemporaries and stuff in the locker room to do with other wrestlers of which he was an onlooker/observer. They make for an interesting testimony - here are the ones most relevant to this thread:

I personally vote him vs Marty Jones first fight at the RAH but you won't like the No Contest Refused TKO finish, OJ.

I think there are one or two more on @sergeiSem's old Youtube channel, possibly vs people like Haystacks or Kirk. I'm not logged into my own Youtube account so looking up his old channel would be a bit of a mission, especially at work with 4min of break left. I'll check it out tonight.

Another one from old gramps himself Popoff/Theo Pouzade/Domingo Valdez. A young whippersnapper vlogger goes visiting Eric Lacroix's manager on New Catch Season 2 and tag partner on that one last FR3 broadcast in early 1991 at his home/makeshift gym/shrine to the good old days. No footage, but vintage posters GALORE (And ditto anecdotes in French from the man with the LE ZEBULÓN moustache himself. Speaking of vintage kids TV from diverse Euro nations, Popoff is no relation to Miss Popoff out of Rentaghost. ) Okay. that's a CWA Vlog on the German thread and this on the French thread. I guess I shall have to find an equivalent for the British thread.

I shall have to check back for that but with Barnes or even more so his former Hells Angels partner Adrian Street this was par for the course and more part of Barnes or Street's acts than Faulkner's.

Defunct Championship Wrestling have done quite a good piece on the CWA here.. Only real flaw is that they talk of traditional German/Austrian wrestling having died out in 1999. The EWP picked up the gauntlet and kept the scene going, eventually rebranding as the CWP in 2023. Also as we have discussed the older, rival VDB carried on until 2005

Okay, I said on the French thread I'd give the Royals versus two real dirty heels a go, so here goes. From Wembley Arena, about an hour or so before Big Daddy Vs Giant Haystacks and nearly a decade before the WWF UK Rampage with Ultimate Warrior and Undertaker headlining and totally outdrawing Hogan Vs Slaughter. Interesting point about heels Bad Boy Bobby Barnes and Cyanide Syd Cooper. They were of course on opposite sides of a 1960s 8mm (faded) colour fancam of the Hells Angels Vs The Dennisons, our only footage in circulation of either team. One of only 6; Street bouts pre America that we havecand one of only three heel Dennison heel bouts we have before the improbable saving of Alan's soul by one Tommy Billington. Back then they still had the same gimmicks in 1981 but Barnes was Beautiful Bobby and Sid was Hell In Boots. First Session: The Royals ask for a handshake but don't get one. Bell rings, Valkner easily rolls off a rather casual side chancery throw by Cooper. Vic Faulkner in arm ambarruns through a series of forwards rolls, backwards rolls and kip ups (including a kick off the middle ropes which Cooper just ignores like all Vic's ble eye opponents do , and finally a forearm smash which DOES rile Cooper tries a headlock then then uses his Mr Referee trick to roll out of Cooper's standing figure four leglock then roll back to get a legdive, turn Cooper over and get a full Boston Crab. Cooper flips him over into a double kneepress which Faulkner reverses I to a double leg nelson for 2 and a few 1s. Vic gets Sid whip a whip, leapfrog and a shoulderblock that takes both men down for the count. Cooper is up at eight. Vic does his usual spring up at 9 but Cooper is ready for this and pitches him to ringside. Vic is soon back through Cooper's legs, leapfrogging him and double leg diving him for a front folding press for 2, before tagging Bert. All this time against one of th3 most hated UK villains and a forearm smash is about like only thing "smug" "dickheaded" Faulkner did to humiliate Cooper. Cooper tries an over the shoulder armbar of Bert who is too tall for Sid, so Barnes tags in and gets to work with brawling with Ber, first in the corner the in the middle of the ring. Bert hiptosses Barnes who rolls back up as nicely as Vic did at the start. They interlock and Barnes gets a Japanese Stranglehold but Bert throws him off. Barnes still rolls off gracefully (I expect Street taught him how back in the day.) Bert gets a foot and has Bobby balancing on the other one. So he tags Sid who posts Bert, but Royal takes the impact well, scuttles through Cooper's legs and gets double legs but gets thrown off by Sid, talking a mild bump. Cooper charges but Bert sidesteps and gets Sidecwith a sideways folding press. Bobby kicks Bert off Sid, tags in and charges but Very catches Bobby in a lengthways surfboard . Barnes rolls backwards into a wristlock on each arm. gets his one permitted stomp in on Royal and stomps off. He attacks too early as Royal gets up and Royal takes advantage to crawl through Barnes'legs and forearm smash him. Unflustered, Barnes gets away, saunters to his corner, whispers some advice to Cooper and then goes back to Bert to do something nasty to his spine. He posts Bert then tries again but Bert reverses it. Vic tags in but Barnes stays on. The villains double team Vic but when Bret trips a charging Barnes then Vic dropkicks him out the ring, forearm smashes Cooper off the apron and backdrops a returning Barnes out to join him. Maybe this is what @ohtani's jacket was complaining about? The Wembley crowd seem as delighted with Cooper and Barnes being outside as when Haystacks (with Cooper in his corner) falls outside later that night. Barnes as back in and in a wristlever with the Royals doing the switching back and forth routine that good guys the world over do. Barnes gets a hammerlock and illegal punch to the kidneys. He corners Vic whom the heels work over until Max Ward intervened, leaving Vic free to elbow Cooper and shoulderblock Barnes, ducking out of the way of one flurry until Cooper comes in, whipping Royal offthecropes into a knee, side chancery throwing and body checking him before Royal sidesteps and throws him out to ringside then sidestepping him again with that returning charge to catch him from behind with a sideways folding press for the first fall. Second session. Bert and Sid resume. Sid posts Bert but Vic comes in, catches him and sends him posting back to get Sid, forearm smash him down, throw him forward, walk along his spine, scissor chop, double legs and slingshot into the Royals corner. Both sides tag. It's Vic's forearms Vs Barnes' concealed illegal punches until Barnes hiptosses Faulkner and tags Sid. The two rush the ropes until Sid drops down but Barnes steps over and stomps him, gets two , a dropkick,two flying headscissors and a folding press broken by a Cooper leg chop. The heels double team Vic with dirties in their corner until Vic ties him in the ropes, double leg slingshots Cooper to him. Bert tags in and gets an Indian Deathlock. It goes on like that until one Barnes illegal punch is in plain sight of the referred and earns him a public warning. Vic tries a rear snapmare but The Bod Boy nicely lands Vic on his behind.Both heels together get a hold on Vic, earning himself a second public warning. Barnes is still playing fast and loose, dragging Vic's arm down over the top rope and tagging Sid who gets a loose hammerlock on Vic. Young Faulkner reaches to tag Bert but to no avail Barbers tags back in, gets a scissor -held hammerlock an a leg assisted straight armbar. The total pressure on shoulders makes Vic submit. Third session. Vic gets a standing crossface as Barnes continues work on one arm with an over the shoulder armbar. Vic tries to tag Bert but he is too far away. Bert eventually drags in Vic by the legs, gets the tag and pounds on Cooper and twice throws him, getting a bump both times. Both sides tag Vic reverses a Barnes posting, gets two dropkicks in, sidesteps two charges from Barnes and backdrops and crosspresses him for the winning fall. A Royal Brothers tag victory to be sure, but I don't really see much cruel humiliation by Faulkner- unless OJ means the bits I highlighted for him. One slightly slapstick forearm and some equally clownish ej3ction of heels from the ring in rapid succession.. Is that real Smug humiliation?

Some more New Catch, this time from Season 1 in 1988 with Drew McDonald and Billy Samson making the respective journeys southwards across the English Channel/Manchester (via the length of Sassenach land) and westwards across the Rhine to be in Paris for the TF1 cameras. Drew is still sporting a shaved head from losing a hair match to Big Daddy on ITV months earlier. Sadly no sign of Doctor Monika Kaiser. (No need for the Nazi Fraud getup, her summer dress and red sunhat woud have done fine.). Samson may or may not be the guy who wrestled in Britain on ITV as Samson Ubo a couple of years earlier but he is billed here as Billy Samson from Bogota. Colombia (despite speaking German to camera) and claims in the pre-match promo to already have beaten Drew in his hometown. This broadcast is from a 1991 Eurosport rescreeneing with commentary by Peter Wilhelm of the CWA. Its starts as a brawl and means to go on that way until Monsieur L'Arbitre has had enough and demand some wrestling so Samson gets a snapmare into front chinlock. Drew like the total heel he is, goes for the ropes and gets some good heat for it (nice to see this still got a reaction from a French crowd in 1988). Drew gets a headlock but Samson breaks it into a top wristlock and takes him down into a guard armlock Again Drew goes for theft Drew gets a full nelson. Samson twice tries throwing Drew forward before the Mighty Scot switches to a side chancery throw and axehandle before the referee stops any followup. From there a Manchette contest breaks out until Samson shoves Drew down. He gets a legdive, trip and leglock, eventually making an upper legscissor down on the mat. Once again, Drew goes for the ropes - at least this time he struggles to get there rather than taking the lazy way out. Drew is up and limping. He gets a one sided pressure point on the "Colombian" who drops to one knee. Drew then gets a Headlock And Strangle (Sleeperhold) on Billy then an axehandle and deliberate chops on the mat. L'Arbitre doesn't particularly reprimand, just gives Billy a count. Drew gets a side chancery takedown into this time full pressure points, moving to one side then dropping an elbow - possibly just softening th3cshouldrr muscle by scrunching it up before a pounding. He drops a guillotine elbowsmash then back to work on the shoulder. Eventually he chokes Samson on the rope using his weight until Billy shoved him off. Despite Billy still being on the ropes, Drew gets the pressure points on again and drags him back for more such treatment before getting a Manchette and another guillotine elbowsmash. This time L'Arbitre prevents a follow down, giving Billy a 7 count until he is up and back in Drew's pressure points. Again Drew puts Billy in a H&S on the ropes, this time Billy tries rear snapmaring him forward to ringside, eventually managing it. Drew gets back in but a manchette, snapmare and dropkick send him back out. Samson side chanceries Drew back in and post him then gets a backdrop and splash for the one required fall (a favourite in 1988 of Kendo Nagasaki for opening/equalising pinfalls). If the Bogotá story is true then Billy is now 2-0 up. 1988 was also the year of Ken Patera Vs Dino Bravo in the WWF. If you liked that, you'll probably like this. Bland strength and brawling bout relying on the crowd favour/heat to get over. At least it was short to type..

A Quebecois versus a Belgian in the former West Germany. In a clean match., it's a handshake from the off. Let's see what SWC (let's call him that) can do technically without falling back on crowd working. Runde 1: They lock up for quite some time, get nowhere and hit the ropes. The next try, Franz gets a grovit. SWC eventually breaks off an arm and whips it but Franz rolls out nicely.(Some annoying pipe organ music starts playing, sounding not dissimilar to the old Merrie Melodies cartoon theme.) They lock up again and Franz gets a wristlever, driving SWC down.. Franz twists forward and instead of setting up for a rollout, SWC spread eagles in the mount. Franz briefly straddles him but makes nothing of it. SWC gets back up into a kneel and the two Interlock .Franz wins this test of strength and goes for the lengthways double arm press but SWC bridges up. The first time Franz overloads the bridge and gets a 1 before SWC pops up again. The second time, SWC slips in a knee and gets a curious one legged monkey climb. Franz gets a legdive into toe and ankle. He tries turning SWC into a single leg Boston Crab but only succeeds once he adjusts his grip further down, eventually getting a single toehold h3ld off to th3 side. He then switches to dropping a weakening knee on the held leg. Franz avoids a counterattack from the other leg and hanks the worked-on leg to pint towards the shoulders. He has the leg folding down into a possible double leg nelson when firstly SWC kicks out then th3 bell goes. For some reason, a caption card between rounds is match with the end credits music for ITV Wrestling 1987-1988 (jazzy arrangement of Carmen). At the time the bout took place, this music had been in use for less than 6 months. West Germany and the UK have/had the same 625 line PAL system so it would be easy to transport tapes for sale across the North Sea by mail or car ferry. Perhaps even the signal carried over like in the Netherlands. Or perhaps the tape was edited together years later, it would suggest the video vendors were aiming for a British market for their tape. Runde 2 and a sportsmanly high five, then SWC gets a sid3 headlock. Franz throws him off but the Canadian gets a bodycheck and a cross buttock into side headlock on the mat. Franz tries a crossface counter, a bridge up, rolling into the guard and a headscissors. None work. Eventually wedging out does the trick. (Months earlier Johnny Saint on ITV used this escape on a young Robbie Brookside.). But Sunny soon has him back on the mat courtesy of another cross buttock into side headlock. Franz works himself into a kneeling then standing position in the headlock. But SWC keeps his grip. Van Buyten throws him off and hiptosses him off the ropes but the Indian keeps grip of the arm and has a guard armbar still. FYB kips up and again throws SWC who again keeps the arm and pulls his man back into the guard armbar. Franz is up and going for the back of Cloud's neck, aiming for a grovit perhaps. Instead he vaults over SWC - who AGAIN pulls Franz down into the guard armlock. Franz could go for the ropes but instead turns 90 degrees and puts a boot under SWC's jaw to push upwards. In the end he kips up, briefly considers a grovit, tries for a THROW and YET AGAIN is pulled down into a guard armlock. Franz this time does get the headscissors although SWC easily enough snaps out and kips up. They single interlock and Buyten cartwheels to twist the arm, the first really agile move of the bout and the first reminded that this guy is a regular on French Catch TV.. Sunny tries to pull him down again but Franz splays himself out to get the better leverage. It works, now he has the guard armbar. But then the bell rings. That caption slide with that British TV theme music again. Runde 3. and SWC rallies with two quick snapmares, tries for a third but is cornered by Franz and given along bumping whip, a posting , a backdrop a slingshot into butt to the stomach and another slingshot which SWC counters with a sunset flip and double leg nelson for 1. Franz tries for a front folding press but SWC uses his legs to throw his man off sideways. SWC gets another two monkey climbs, both this time with both feet. Franz catches a third one and turns i5 into a backdrop. He gets a bodycheck, runs over the Indian. gets two flying headbutts and a flying tackle for the one fall required. @ohtani's jacket I think your copy was clipped to just the first two Runden as this copy has three and a clear finish. The first two rounds were worthy but slow - Franz knew Old German Wrestling and I guess Sunny knew pre-Eddie Quinn "Pink Wrestling" in Montreal some somewhere in there the styles meshed to create something less like human chess and more like an arm wrestling contest using the whole body. Then just at the end of Runde 2 the ACTION kicks in and the bout really perks up.

Amusing AI generated image found on Facebook of The Hart Foundation versus two blokes who are supposed to be Demolition but look NOTHING LIKE THEM. Actually this might be a good representation of what Demolition looked like in the collective unconscious of hardcore NWA/Road Warriors fans who wanted to see Ax and Smash die in the ring at the hands of a raging Hawk and Animal. Although funnily enough Barry Darsow had that look for a while in spring '87 once his post-Kruscher Krushchev stubble had grown out into a suedehead.