Kronos

Last night, I was watching Dusty v Flair, from I think Starrcade 84. Dusty was a fantastic talker, and he had a lot of charisma in the ring. Crowds loved him, especially when he would do his dances. But it cannot be denied that he had a less-than-optimum physique, and the look is so important these days for getting over. I wonder if a young Dusty Rhodes, given his look alone, would make it as a main eventer today? Would Vince even give him a look? The closest example I can think up would be Foley, I suppose. But he had to do some insane things to really make it big, from FMW Deathmatches to the HINC. Anyway, a little latenight idle speculation. . .

This statement is genius! I hope you don't mind if I steal it for a sig, giving you credit of course. . .

You may be right. I can concede that if it's what Danielson wants to do, then more power to him. Maybe he DOES like being the big fish/small pond. I shouldn't say he's an idiot for that decision alone. It just doesn't make sense to me, though. Most artists of whatever form WANT people to see their work, the more the merrier. I am certainly no insider, but I have read quite a few wrestling memoirs, and it would seem in my limited perspective that in this aspect they are not much different than other artists like singers, actors, or writers. Like I said, the promo was well-delivered, and I cheered it at first as well. They wouldn't boo him, you're right. But I just wonder how many of them have really thought about what their cheers mean? Once I stopped and considered it for the first time, I started to wonder.

For anyone who hasn't gotten their hands on this book yet: If you order this book through www.buy.com, you can use their "set up a new google checkout" and save $10. My order just now with the cheapest shipping was $10.40.

Which is an utterly insane and completely selfish mindset. I've never understood the idea of Sold Out. If you like these people, you want them to succeed, right? And you do realize that most niche indy art cannot succeed in the mainstream? So in order to get paid, they're almost by definition going to have to alter what they do in some way? I've always hated the creepy obsessive types who would rather have their favorite artists starving or working a day job just as long as they keep making their art in the specific way that they like. Lili Taylor was way better in indy films than she was in The Haunting, but the fact that she did that piece of crap and probably bought a house from it doesn't erase all the earlier stuff she'd already done. It's the same in wrestling with the ECW/ROH mentality, they'd rather have their favorite workers killing themselves in little shitty armories and not being able to pay their bills. Yes, exactly what I am saying! Listen to the pops Danielson gets on 6th Anniversary Show when he talks about how he and others have wrestled through injuries and pain just so they can work for ROH fans and what a pussy Nigel is for not wanting to have his head broken. (I know it was probably mostly a work, but the point remains.) Danielson says something about how he never took those big contracts he was offered because he'd rather stay here with these fans and earn the respect of real people. I call bullsh**. It's one of several options: 1. He was never offered a contract by WWE or TNA -- seems unlikely that at least TNA wouldn't call him for their X-Division. 2. He was offered a contract but turned it down because he likes being the biggest fish in a little pond. Or maybe he truly believes he is being true to his art by not going there. In which case, he's an idiot. The fans have such little respect for him that they cheer when he makes these comments. Just like they cheered Dreamer in the 90's. Watching that promo yesterday, which was actually pretty good from an audience standpoint, was the last straw for me and ROH. I began to really think about what it meant instead of just getting caught up in the emotion. It perfectly underscored exactly what we've been talking about concerning the sleaziness of the business in regards to throwing away wrestler's lives. No porn starlet would say, "Hey, I was offered big contracts by Vivid and Wicked to make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Besides the money, the conditions are better and the oportunity exists for my work to be seen by many, many more people. But I turned it down because I felt that working on bangbus.com was truer to my art. I wouldn't want to lose the respect of those fans."

Damn. Now I am just depressed. . . Yes, you are right. My brother is a major music guy -- think John Cusack in High Fidelity -- and he hates it when bands make it big that he loved as secret indy records. We all want our special favorites to be ours alone. And sometimes, it's true. Look at James Gibson, who is completely wasted/buried at WWE. I am sad that he doesn't get to share his talent with me and the world. But he lives far better now than he did as an Indy guy, surely, and who am I to begrudge him? I would never say he sold out.

Not saying it's right, but could it be that some of them have contempt for the group of fans who would prefer they got repeatedly dropped on their heads for $50 a night in a local national guard armory? I am thinking here of the "You Sold Out" chants at Foley back in the day. Or the way Mickie James is treated by some people over at the ROH and SHIMMER boards. You know what I mean? "I love Alexis Laree -- she's as good as any woman wrestler ever! But now, she's just a sold-out hack who's lost all of her talent since going to WWE. She wouldn't last 10 minutes with Daizee Haze. This Mickie person is not the Alexis we all knew and loved." From a standpoint of wrestlers trying to make a living and reaching the top of their industry, it's gotta be deuced frustrating to have the most vocal minority of the fans shit on them. I don't know that Hardy story, but since it's DVDVR, it may help to prove my point.

Well, I think your easy dismissal of that argument may be a bit strong, but I see what you mean. By giving money and encouragement to an industry we know is f***'d-up, we are helping to perpetuate the cycles. You are correct that the behind the scenes stuff is not necessary for fan enjoyment, and that could be cleaned up to be sure. So it's not an obvious answer. Thinking from a standpoint of messed up stuff demanded in the ring: I was watching the Triumph and Tragedy of World Class DVD, and there's a match from the 60's on there. I really enjoy it because I have begun to get into classic wrestling, but most fans would never sit through it because it's slow, long, and has no real high spots. They would much rather see Cena powerbomb Edge off a 16-ft ladder through two tables. When did that begin? ECW? Nitro's cruiserweights? The Attitude Era? That stuff sold as well or better than ever, and it's here to stay. As for me, I have begun backing away from ROH because more and more, it bores me. The constant crazy spots make my head tired, and the ROHbotness of the fans makes me uncomfortable. All of this talk about what it does to the wrestlers themselves has done nothing but encourage my opinion. (Course, I am a bit of a hypocrite because I find that I am beginning to watch puro, so what can you do? We're all multi-faceted in this crazy fandom world, eh? )

[ this may be the wrong thread, but it's as good as any] I have been reading this thread and the ones here and elsewhere about JR and about the Benoit book. I am not saying my world is shaken, because I was aware of so much of this crap and generally willfully ignore that stuff. By buying these DVDs and books and going to shows and talking up the game and even trading matches and tapes, do we not bear some responsibility for the sleaziness and pain? Obviously, we didn't make those guys anally rape trainees with fruit. But watch the crowds at ROH (or ECW, for that matter), and you will see that so often these guys act so sleazy because it impresses the fans. How am I not looking the other way at best or encouraging this dangerous behavior at worst? I am sure it's an old topic. I seriously doubt I am going to quit following wrestling because of a few pages of forcible reminders about how sleazy this business can be. I enjoy it too much. But it's been weighing on me the last day or so. Thought I would share. And btw, to the poster who questioned the influence porn has on viewers, perhaps as opposed to wrestling? First, wrestling as rule doesn't make people more violent (I don't think, unless you count small children). But I firmly believe -- and much of this is my own experience, so take what it's worth -- that watching a lot of porn will alter how one looks at the opposite sex. If I have been watching a lot of porn lately, I find myself shifting into overdrive mentally with just about every attractive woman I see, imagining her doing those things I have been watching. It's deeply disrespectful to these women to think of them as my own playthings. And before you counter with the excellent and valid argument that all guys think of attractive women sexually, I am simply saying that it's a matter of degree. Something changes, and not for the better. I shouldn't wonder if something kind of gets rewired in the brain. But that's wandering off topic. I guess I just mean that porn -- for all the good it does viewers and even if the top stars are treated better than wrestling performers -- still tends to have a wider negative effect on viewers as well as participants. Thus, porn is sleazier. And I can keep watching wrestling.

i had to come over here, too, for the same reason. pm goodhelmet. Not trying to hijack the thread, but I couldn't get the DVDVR guys to approve me, either. Their email is non-responding, and I can't PM them. Oh, well. . .

Yes, that may be the point. How can anyone look at Dave and not say he's on something? But he's not suspended. Damn these double standards. Regal is more entertaining in and out of the ring that HHH or Batista combined. . .

You may be right. However, as I recall, Hassan and Davairi froze in fear when he appeared. Had they continued to beat on Eugene while Hogan preened, it would have been awful.

SLL, I like your article. I wrote something along similar lines for a course paper. The paper was called "Myth, Parable, and Professional Wrestling", and it dealt with the idea that wrestling -- as theater -- tells truths through its use of Story. Myths in this context are the things we want to believe or wish were true, while parables are the harsh truths of reality. Example: I had opened the paper with Hogan's rescue of Eugene at Mania as one of my favorite stories in all of wrestling. I closed it with this one: I love this aspect of our sport because it shows that we can have so much more than just two super acrobats showing off (or is that jerking off?). When what happens in the ring and after the matches means something, then I find myself much more satisfied.

I think you're onto something here. Why doesn't Taker go for choke slams everytime? But sometimes they are constrained by dragging out the action a bit, which is not always a bad thing. This morning, I watched the first part of a Bret/Yoko cage match (the CHV version). In the first minute, Bret gets away from Yokozuna and climbs all the way to the top of the cage. He basically has to stop and wait for his slow opponent to catch up to him and pull him down so the match continues. That sequence reveals a major flaw in the match's pacing, which hurts the storytelling. If the story is that they are trying to escape the cage, then the fight should be believable and should include a hurried escape if possible. But because they needed a longer match, the obvious solution (like your finishers) has to be discarded. Still, better storytelling would have prevented that sequence from occurring. Here's where a good play-by-play guy makes all the difference, though I have not seen it put so bluntly. Heenan started saying "Whose side is he on?" when Hogan appeared at the founding of the nWo. That's ridiculous. No one was questioning Hogan's allegiances at that moment. But take someone like JR at his best, and you get each match coming across as a epic while not sounding overblown. I gotta freakin get this one!

Earlier today, I was watching Hart Foundation v Bulldogs in an early WWF match in the 80's (pre pink Harts). I found myself thinking that they were telling a good story, with Harts playing the bully heels doing everything they could to power and cheat their way to a win. The Bulldogs had the crowd in their hands, working the comebacks and getting huge pops. It made me think about the concept of storytelling. We use that word all the time, and I decided I was curious what sorts of things it means to you veterans (I am a reasonably new fan, despite my 34 yrs of age, having only started watching rasslin in about 2006). I am working as hard as I can to catch up, though! One of my favorite examples is Dragon/Storm at ROH "Better Than Our Best". In this match, which had little feud buildup, we have a perfect example of a cocky new guy who finds himself feted as best in the world trying to beat down the wily veteran who may or may not be past it. The nearly-30 minute pace is perfect for telling the story in a perfect old school manner, with the few semi-flashy spots used to great effect. One of the issues I find frequently in watching Indy wrestling especially (and why I find myself drawn these days to classic stuff) is because so often you just get two guys in the ring trying to impress each other and the crowds. They have no real reason for doing it, no storyline is communicated, and the high spots have begun to fall flat for me. So not sure what I am really asking in this thread now that I begin writing. I just thought it might be interesting to discuss this concept, in whatever direction it goes. [Plus, this board is kinda quiet and needs a few new threads! ]

I was loving this push he was getting! Dang it! Why do these guys have to self-destruct like this?

I don't know about Stevie, but I once faked a cold so I could miss work. . .

I hear Dave Meltzer isn't very fond of him. LOL! The more I think of it, the more I think he uses too many rest holds. What's the chicken wing thing, anyway? Would it kill the guy to throw in a standing moonsault or a half-nelson suplex now and then (or is that a suplait)? Sheesh. . .

Yeah, so, how bout that Bob Backlund? I saw him at The Garden, and I think that kid's got a future in this business. Course, he'll never beat the unbeatable Bruno, but he might still do okay. . .

More Regal! "God Save the Queen" -- LOL. What a masterful opening. I, too, am digging on RAW lately. Not only is the Regal thing rocking, but there's also the feud b/t the new mouth (Santino) vs the old mouth (Piper). And JR's face last week when Regal replaced him with Adamle. Genius.

RAW 5/5/08 Harry "Canadian Bulldog" Smith v JBL I have come to like JBL more and more over the years. I didn't like him at first, but I think his mic work as an announcer finally won me over. I am glad he's back in the ring, even if he does look pretty out of shape. That said, I have major questions about this squash. JBL cuts a promo about how the Hart Foundation is DEAD (!!!!). He tells Harry that Davey Boy can't save him. Bret can't save him. I almost expected him to mention Owen, but mercifully he didn't. I think insulting the poor kid's dead father may be over the top, even if they planned it in advance. Layfield then proceeds to beat the crap out of little Harry, who looks like a high school kid in there next to this hulking monster. I was praying that The Anvil would come waddling in and save Harry, but of course he didn't. What does this prove? JBL could have beat up any jobber and come across just as mean. But they took it too far in this segment, disrespecting the fans and the legacy of the sport and the poor kid's family. And this could have done major harm to Harry's young career. Bad for you, Bradshaw. Bad for you.

UNFORGIVEN 2006 I kinda thought this was a so-so card, but it's getting high ratings around the web. So I may go back and give it another chance. I thought the Nitro/Jeff opener was good followed by a tense promo with Matt, but the HITC match bored me. I just wanted to point out a couple of things that really struck me: 1. I am a fan of women's wrestling, and I am a fan of both Lita and Trish. But I thought this match mostly blew from a tech standpoint, what with Lita having to oversell Trish's slow motion head scissors and whatnot. It was a bit more physical than most diva matches, though. And when Trish busted out the Sharpshooter, I totally marked out! It was awesome and so unexpected! Loved it. 2. Orton's promo ruled! "All the crazy haircuts and apple-spitting won't change the fact that Trish Stratus is still a b****! And Carlito, I'm gonna make you mine." Genius. 3. TLC -- Gotta say, I have become more of a fan of Cena over the years. This match was filled with crazy spots, ending with a wicked insane blast through two tables. I'll be watching this one again! Both of these guys should be dead from this match. . .

Wow. Wow. Wow. Interesting piece of history here. . .