Voices of Wrestling - Daniel Bryan push, is August '13 the greatest month in wrestling history?

[Childs]

Yeah, April '94 was really something, with one of the best Carnivals ever, the Super J Cup, a top-notch WCW ppv and the great Lawler-Dream Machine brawl. If Wrestlemania XX had been two weeks later, we might have a runaway winner there.

 

Current NJ isn't really for me, so I can't imagine thinking this was the best G-1 ever, though they obviously dished up a lot of what their fan base digs. The '91 G-1 was the best from the era I like.

[Dylan Waco]

I will say this for August 2013 - it is at least conceivable that the best WWE match and it's runner-up, the best WWE tv match (Cesaro v. Zayn wouldn't necessarily be my pick but is in the converation), the best Japan match and it's runner-up, the best Lucha match and the best indie match (Gallows v. Davis is not my MOTY for the indie scene but it is arguable) all took place this month. Whether the quality reflects years of old is of course something that I would very, very seriously question. But given the world we live in it was/is a very strong month

[W2BTD]

Thanks for the recommendations. I will watch both matches. If you have any BJPW to pimp please do as well

This is the Big Japan match with the greatest amount of hype. Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ryuichi Kawakami 6/30 form Korakuen Hall

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClwN5RlPABA...ayer_detailpage

[W2BTD]

Blue Panther/Negro Casas/Atlantis v. Black Terry/Negro Navarro/Solar 8-16 CMLL

 

 

I thought this was great maestro style action. I know Dylan in his comments said he was fairly low but I think he would still consider it a good match. I would have this as one of 4-5 lucha MOTY so far and it is a good candidate for Casas being one of the top workers with his exchanges vs. Terry and Navarro.

 

Blue Panther, Rush, Super Porky vs Averno, Felino, Negro Casas - CMLL 8/17

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx29hfHLnhY

 

Casas vs. Rush has been a super feud and actually Joe I think a FOTY candidate that you guys were talking about on the pod. This I wouldn't classify as great but was a lot of fun and a worthy addition to padding the resume for August 2013.

I watched the Rey Hechicero vs Charles Lucero and hated it. Just not my style of wrestling. I will never be into chubby middle aged guys exchanging holds, it's the quickest way to lose me unless you are talking deathmatch. I'll leave it at that, I just don't like the style, so no point bashing it further.

 

I liked these six man matches you linked much, much more. Even though Black Terry is one of the last wrestlers on the planet I would ever choose to watch, I always enjoy the other five guys from the first match. I couldn't take my eyes off of Negro Casas in that one, and Blue Panther is one of my favorites of all time.

 

Why is Blue Panther wearing his mask?

[Dylan Waco]

It was his anniversary show and he asked to wear the mask for it.

 

That is an...interesting description of Hechicero v. Lucero (I am actually kind of puzzled how anyone could hate this match and like the old man maestros tag but I'll assume that just comes down to Casas) . I won't dwell on it either really, but I do wonder what on earth middle aged guys exchanging holds has to do with death match wrestling?

[Dylan Waco]

Just watched Okada v. Ibushi. I actually didn't hate it, but I can't call it a good match because Ibushi is sub-Naito in his selling. I understand he's a highspot heavy wrestler and that in and of itself isn't a negative (hell some of my absolute favorite current guys are highspot heavy guys), but if an entire match is built around you getting your neck/head worked over the least you can fucking do is hold your head/neck in between reeling off big spots. Ibushi can't even be bothered to do that. I will say the match is far better structured than it could have been and I agree that Okada's offense - while still not terribly impressive - was focused. I still think the Rainmaker is the one of the most cooperative looking spots in modern wrestling history and I really didn't like the nervehold/toehold thing but this was still better Okada then normal on scale. It's just that Ibushi isn't any good

[W2BTD]

It was his anniversary show and he asked to wear the mask for it.

 

That is an...interesting description of Hechicero v. Lucero (I am actually kind of puzzled how anyone could hate this match and like the old man maestros tag but I'll assume that just comes down to Casas) . I won't dwell on it either really, but I do wonder what on earth middle aged guys exchanging holds has to do with death match wrestling?

One has nothing to do with the other. The point I was trying to make was, 'middle aged guys exchanging holds' is one notch above 'deathmatch' for me in the pantheon of things style wise I can't get into. That's all. No direct comparison or anything.

[W2BTD]

Just watched Okada v. Ibushi. I actually didn't hate it, but I can't call it a good match because Ibushi is sub-Naito in his selling. I understand he's a highspot heavy wrestler and that in and of itself isn't a negative (hell some of my absolute favorite current guys are highspot heavy guys), but if an entire match is built around you getting your neck/head worked over the least you can fucking do is hold your head/neck in between reeling off big spots. Ibushi can't even be bothered to do that. I will say the match is far better structured than it could have been and I agree that Okada's offense - while still not terribly impressive - was focused. I still think the Rainmaker is the one of the most cooperative looking spots in modern wrestling history and I really didn't like the nervehold/toehold thing but this was still better Okada then normal on scale. It's just that Ibushi isn't any good

Where would you stand on Okada if he used any other finish in the world?

 

I think he does so many little things well, and his selling is far ahead of many of his New Japan contemporaries.

 

I think he blows Naito out of the water, curious to see where you stand here.

[WingedEagle]

I love Okada, and am excited to see where he goes as he matures and develops. Red Ink does nothing for me but he's got a diverse offense, and as already noted, is an incredibly willing and able seller. How can one criticize his finisher for being cooperative but not find the same flaws with much lucha? Perhaps I haven't seen enough but a lot of the matwork and finishes there aren't possible to pull off on even a dazed opponent. I also like most of the pimped lucha I see and love some of the high end stuff, but if cooperation is a flaw then lucha needs to be found pretty guilty as well.

[Dylan Waco]

Just watched Okada v. Ibushi. I actually didn't hate it, but I can't call it a good match because Ibushi is sub-Naito in his selling. I understand he's a highspot heavy wrestler and that in and of itself isn't a negative (hell some of my absolute favorite current guys are highspot heavy guys), but if an entire match is built around you getting your neck/head worked over the least you can fucking do is hold your head/neck in between reeling off big spots. Ibushi can't even be bothered to do that. I will say the match is far better structured than it could have been and I agree that Okada's offense - while still not terribly impressive - was focused. I still think the Rainmaker is the one of the most cooperative looking spots in modern wrestling history and I really didn't like the nervehold/toehold thing but this was still better Okada then normal on scale. It's just that Ibushi isn't any good

Where would you stand on Okada if he used any other finish in the world?

 

I think he does so many little things well, and his selling is far ahead of many of his New Japan contemporaries.

 

I think he blows Naito out of the water, curious to see where you stand here.

 

I thought Naito had a lot of potential pre-injury, but he really bothered me in the G1. I thought Suzuki carried him to a good match, but I agree that his selling was really poor as a whole and even worse than that he's a guy who really only has two speeds - dead out getting his ass kicked or sprinting through his spots. I criticize Ibushi for that above, but Naito at his worse is vastly worse in terms of pacing/tempo issues than Ibushi is. Coming into the G1 I would have said that Naito had more potential for what I look for than Okada but coming out no way in hell I could say that with a straight face.

 

I don't like Okada, but he does make an effort to sell - especially limb work. At times he does this very well, particularly within the confines of the style he works. I hate his finish, in large part because the countering of it so unbelievably phony looking that it drives me nuts. A different finish would help, though in general I don't think he's a terribly dynamic offensive wrestler.

 

Of the NJPW guys who I don't like Okada is above Tanahashi, Naito (at this point), Nagata and Karl Anderson for sure for whatever that is worth

[Dylan Waco]

I love Okada, and am excited to see where he goes as he matures and develops. Red Ink does nothing for me but he's got a diverse offense, and as already noted, is an incredibly willing and able seller. How can one criticize his finisher for being cooperative but not find the same flaws with much lucha? Perhaps I haven't seen enough but a lot of the matwork and finishes there aren't possible to pull off on even a dazed opponent. I also like most of the pimped lucha I see and love some of the high end stuff, but if cooperation is a flaw then lucha needs to be found pretty guilty as well.

What specific examples of spots in Lucha do you find overly cooperative? I look at something like the sequence around the tombstone in the Okada/Tanahashi G1 draw (which I actually thought was pretty decent as a match) and think "that is the fakest thing on Earth." I could see the argument for someone finding certain sort of Lucha matwork to be really exhibition like, but it is very rare that I see a mat based Lucha spot where I go "that is completely phony, to the extent that's not even credible within the world in which it operates." I say that a lot with your more convoluted sequences in NJPW

[WingedEagle]

Completely agree on Naito. I thought he was great in the title match last year vs. Okada but since coming back have not been at all impressed other than vs. Suzuki in the G1, and Suzuki can carry just about any stiff to a good match. I'm apparently in the distinct minority on Tanahashi on PWO as I think he delivers in big matches, but Naito's performance there was too cartoonish for me. I also love Nakamura but man did he and Naito miss or hold back on just about every strike in that match. Negative points to the cameraman for exposing things as much he did there as well, though they need to at least not scream at me that its fake.

 

Then again I enjoyed certain aspects of Ishii/Shibata (beginning and finishing stretch) but do not find much to love about the "let's take turns stiffing the hell out of and attempting to concuss one another" style. If these guys want to try MMA that badly they should go for it, but in the proper forum.

[WingedEagle]

What specific examples of spots in Lucha do you find overly cooperative? I look at something like the sequence around the tombstone in the Okada/Tanahashi G1 draw (which I actually thought was pretty decent as a match) and think "that is the fakest thing on Earth." I could see the argument for someone finding certain sort of Lucha matwork to be really exhibition like, but it is very rare that I see a mat based Lucha spot where I go "that is completely phony, to the extent that's not even credible within the world in which it operates." I say that a lot with your more convoluted sequences in NJPW

Which execution of La Magistral shouldn't be blocked or simply countered by the recipient throwing the protagonist off of him? How about every spot where the guy working underneath stands, waits and catches someone diving on him? Many cradles and pinning sequences in lucha seem so diagrammed, slowly executed and done to an opponent who's not even dazed, much less out on his feet that there's no way I can buy them as legit.

 

If we're extending it to tombstones, what about most Undertaker spots, GTs's, FU's/AA's, or similar spots that require one guy to be lifted and maneuvered into position for the move? Within the context of a fight -- caged or otherwise, they're almost all completely preposterous. I say that generally not minding it one bit. I'm just not clear where we draw the line as far as when cooperation is a bad thing as opposed to something acceptably overlooked.

[tim]

I more or less like Okada's finisher actually. He tends to hit it pretty decently when he actually connects and although a lot of the time the reversal sequences look like ballroom dancing or something (Okada REALLY needs to make his opponents duck rather than aiming too high, or worse practically leaping his arm over their heads) I think some have been pretty neat. His other offense though is awful, especially his painfully terrible submissions and his weird US-indie imported offense that feels incredibly out of place in the style he works and has actually killed heat during heated exchanges when he hits one because it's so outside the context of Japanese heavyweight wrestling.

[WingedEagle]

I've found he generally connects pretty well on the Rainmaker. He also throws a beautiful dropkick and has a nice elbow off the top. He's not bad at trading big spots when in with Tanahashi, but Red Ink and that awful drop into a bump on the neck that Goto (who I despise) has a version of both need to go. For a guy only so far into having a run of main event matches, that offense plus his selling is enough to leave me pretty optimistic about where he can go as a worker.