The "wrestling hype-machine"

[Coffey]

What does it take to be successful in professional wrestling? A lot of factors are thrown around: charisma, workrate, drawing power, etc. However, do any of them matter as much as simply having the company behind you? For example, let's look at WWE. "Stone Cold" Steve Austin wasn't anything too special when he was the "Ringmaster." At least popularity wise. He certainly wasn't a "main eventer" when he was losing matches to Savio Vega. After he cut the "3:16" promo at the King of the Ring in 1996, the fans caught on. Maybe a little before that even, people started to notice him. Even jaded fans were behind him after his submission match with Bret Hart at Wrestlemania 13. He was a good worker but didn't get a ton of time to shine. Injuries started to catch up to him and his ringwork dwindled, however he got more popular than ever. He was being fueled by the WWE machine. His merchandise was hot, ratings were good, people made money. He was successful.

 

I'm under the belief that it doesn't matter how many tools you bring to the table. The only thing that matters is if the company will give you a megapush. Then, it's successful if the fans accept it and it fails if they don't. Randy Orton, John Cena & Batista have all got the push recently. Cena was over on Smackdown, now his cheers are dwindling as he's growing stale. Orton pretty much got rejected doing anything that wasn't an RNN skit. He now gets "Jeff Hardy heat." Batista has seemingly been over for almost a year without a lot of character change. It might be because he's on Smackdown, which is taped and altered, or it could be because the fans haven't shit on him yet.

 

I was thinking of wrestlers that used to be on the WWF roster. Ted DiBiase, Mr. Perfect, Rick Rude, Ricky Steamboat, etc. None of them got a chance to carry the company with the top belt, despite them having almost all the tools (if not all of them) required to be a top performer. So, I'm just curious what you guys think about it. Does it matter in this day and age if a wrestler can work or not? If they can talk or sell or bump or whatever? You can talk about going out and "making something happen" all you want but if the promotion isn't behind you, it doesn't matter how over you get. Look at Christian. How does it pertain to non-WWE promotions?

 

This kind of ties into the "give new guys a chance" thread. If WWE were to megapush someone like Masters or Carlito, do you think it could be successful?

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

It's not just one thing that makes someone successful. If it was, then we'd see more success stories. I don't think that one can be successful without the other, in this regard. In the WWE, you need the company to push you to be successful. The push brings you to another level, it makes you important. But they can't just push anyone and acheive a high level of success. I imagine they could push anyone and acheive a moderate level of success, but the hype machine can only do so much, eventually the fans are going to see through it if the wrestler can't deliver.

 

The push can make a good guy great, and a great guy into a megastar. If done right. A person has to have strengths, and the push has to focus around those strengths. Brock Lesnar, for example. His was probably the biggest push the WWE has given someone in the past 5 years. He didn't catch on initially. But they kept pushing, and they kept pushing his strengths (which was, fittingly, his strength), and eventually he got over with the crowd to a high degree without being a great promo, which was the conventional standard at the time for a main eventer.

 

The WWE is hypocritical with their "you have to make it happen" stance, because the WWE limits their wrestlers on what they can do in the ring. A cruiserweight can't go out there, have a 13 minute match full of insane high spots, use garbage, juice, and then move to a big finish. Even if they were capable of doing it, even if they were willing to do it. But then again, a cruiserweight -or any wrestler- should at the very least TRY to do those things and get over. But make sure Vince is watching because Vince is a big mark for the pop. I think Vince would ignore all those things, the blading, the garbage, the high spots, etc. if the fans went nuts for it. The agents, however, since they answer to Vince and Vince has mandated certain things as being unacceptable, would ream any wrestler out over it. But it's worth the shot.

[Loss]

Regarding Rudo's point, they seem to want it both ways. They want guys to get over not on moves, but on an emotional connection with the audience through selling, body language, facial expressions, etc. I could accept that methodology if I thought they truly believed it, but every time they don't know what to do with the more talented aerial wrestlers, they get thrown in ladder matches, and then get scolded by Creative and Vince for going all out. They need to be consistent with their view.

 

I'll respond to Coffey's points later.

[Guest Some Guy]

What does it take to be successful in professional wrestling? A lot of factors are thrown around: charisma, workrate, drawing power, etc. However, do any of them matter as much as simply having the company behind you? For example, let's look at WWE. "Stone Cold" Steve Austin wasn't anything too special when he was the "Ringmaster."

He was something special. He just hadn't gotten the oppurtunity outside of a few months in ECW to really show it.

 

At least popularity wise.

True. Austin's strenghs as a performer were his ring work and promos. He was put in a bunch of squash matches and not allowed to talk. Once he was allowed to work longer competitive matches and talk he became incredibly popular.

 

He certainly wasn't a "main eventer" when he was losing matches to Savio Vega. After he cut the "3:16" promo at the King of the Ring in 1996, the fans caught on. Maybe a little before that even, people started to notice him. Even jaded fans were behind him after his submission match with Bret Hart at Wrestlemania 13.

True.

 

He was a good worker but didn't get a ton of time to shine. Injuries started to catch up to him and his ringwork dwindled, however he got more popular than ever. He was being fueled by the WWE machine. His merchandise was hot, ratings were good, people made money. He was successful.

He had from Survivor Series 96 through Summerslam 97 to shine as a worker and churned out some great matches and promos. Then he hurt his neck and came back even more popular than before.

 

I'm under the belief that it doesn't matter how many tools you bring to the table. The only thing that matters is if the company will give you a megapush.

That's certainly true. Talent can be denied the chance, it happens all the time.

 

Then, it's successful if the fans accept it and it fails if they don't. Randy Orton, John Cena & Batista have all got the push recently.

Yes, they have.

 

Cena was over on Smackdown, now his cheers are dwindling as he's growing stale.

Cena has become exposed for what he is: a poor worker with decent mic skills and good charisma. A heel turn and a refinement of his ring work would change that. Everything he does looks very sloppy, he needs to tighten that up.

 

Orton pretty much got rejected doing anything that wasn't an RNN skit. He now gets "Jeff Hardy heat."

Orton was over as the cocky heel member of Evolution. WWE killed his heat by having him turn face and then lose to HHH, in addition to putting the strap on him way beforehe deserved it. He got pushed too hard for the fans liking and then was turned into something that fans didn't want to see him as.

 

Batista has seemingly been over for almost a year without a lot of character change.

Batista got over because he was allowed to look good opposing HHH and he got to beat him 3 straight matches.

 

It might be because he's on Smackdown, which is taped and altered, or it could be because the fans haven't shit on him yet.

Batista may still get good pops, but attendence, ratings, and buyrate figures say that he is ot much of a draw for WWE.

 

I was thinking of wrestlers that used to be on the WWF roster. Ted DiBiase, Mr. Perfect, Rick Rude, Ricky Steamboat, etc.  None of them got a chance to carry the company with the top belt, despite them having almost all the tools (if not all of them) required to be a top performer.

DiBiase was a victim of circumstance with HTM refusing to drop the IC belt to Savage. Rick Rude was deemed too small for a run with Hogan. Steamboat scared Hogan. Back injuries cost Perfect the chance to be WWF champ.

 

So, I'm just curious what you guys think about it. Does it matter in this day and age if a wrestler can work or not? If they can talk or sell or bump or whatever?

Yes, it does matter if they can do all of those things or not.

 

You can talk about going out and "making something happen" all you want but if the promotion isn't behind you, it doesn't matter how over you get. Look at Christian. How does it pertain to non-WWE promotions?

Christian is a guy who did "make it happen" and they refused to push him anywhere close to where the fans wanted to see him because Vince long ago decided that he was just a midcard talent. His case is pretty sad because he went out and did what they told him to do. He got over without a push. He also carried Edge both in and out of the ring during their tag run and then had to watch Edge fail multiple times after getting big pushes.

 

This kind of ties into the "give new guys a chance" thread. If WWE were to megapush someone like Masters or Carlito, do you think it could be successful?

Masters, no. He just doesn't have it at this point. He needs a few more years to learn and they should not be spent on Raw. Carlito is going to run into a big problem sooner rather than later, in that he is a over as a heel but he loses all the fucking time and is not going to be seen as any type of threat to anyone as a result.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

Regarding Rudo's point, they seem to want it both ways. They want guys to get over not on moves, but on an emotional connection with the audience through selling, body language, facial expressions, etc. I could accept that methodology if I thought they truly believed it, but every time they don't know what to do with the more talented aerial wrestlers, they get thrown in ladder matches, and then get scolded by Creative and Vince for going all out. They need to be consistent with their view.

Not to mention that they usually will put a wrestler out for a 4 minute match and it's kinda hard to get over with the crowd in 4 minutes when you're told by agents to hit certain spots and not go outside the format. And especially when the crowd doesn't have any reason to care about you (because only a select few wrestlers are ever pushed enough for the crowd to get to "know them") and aren't willing to give you a chance right off-the-bat. And then you have to think about who you are trying to please - the fans, or the brass (answer: the brass). So you're fighting an uphill battle, with little time to win them over and lots of restrictions on what you can do, PLUS, you have another guy across the ring from you who probably has a different idea in how the match should go, plus you have a ref in there giving you cues. Talk about being handcuffed.

[Loss]

There are also frequent talent mismatches in the undercard, so there are probably a lot of situations where the better guy calls for lots of spots that he ends up not getting because the other guy gets confused or can't pull them off.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

And you don't want to make the mistake of stealing the show away from the big fish, who will see you as a threat and squash you before you know it. Can't be too successful.