Chris Benoit

[Guest Luds]

I wouldn't argue with you over Rude and Hennig but as a character, and a wrestler, Dibiase could have held the belt and not one person would have questioned it.

Certainly, DiBiase vs. Hogan with Hogan constantly getting the shaft due to Virgil getting Teddy DQ'd all the way to the SummerSlam/Mania title change would have been great. They could have simply postponed Savage/Hogan for a few months.

[Coffey]

Where I disagree is that his flaws aren't really as huge a problem as you're making them out to be, they're not terribly important...

See, this is also where I disagree because Benoit is in WWE. It'd be different if he were still wrestling in Japan or if he was in Ring of Honor. He's not, he's in WWE, where that shit certainly is important, dare I say the most important.

 

Benoit puts on great PPV wrestling performances. I can't dispute that. The problem is leading up to said PPV match, I have nothing that pulls me in and makes me want to watch his PPV match. I know I'm talking in circles, but that's my point. Benoit may be a good wrestler, or as you put it "Benoit is a wrestler who wrestles really well. That's his appeal. That's all there is to it." That's my problem: that's all there is to it. I don't care if Benoit wins or losses. I don't care if he gets screwed or gets revenge. I have investment or interest in his persona from a fan perspective.

[Guest TheNewAge]

That's as much WWE's fault as it is Benoit's, though. Wins and losses no longer matter in this company at all. That's not specific to Benoit, it's everyone. Don't blame Benoit for being the victim of a bunch of twits who don't know what they are doing.

 

Besides, you're acting as if Benoit comes out after a match, cuts a promo and puts you to sleep. That's not what happens at all. The guy doesn't even get a chance to develop his character, and it's a testament to him that he's still as over as he is.

[Coffey]

That's as much WWE's fault as it is Benoit's

I agree 100% but it's still a problem.

Wins and losses no longer matter in  this company at all.

I don't think that's completely accurate but I can see the argument being made. For example, people cared about Bobby Lashley winning or losing when he still had the undefeated streak going. People want to see the Great Khali lose.

Besides, you're acting as if Benoit comes out after a match, cuts a promo and puts you to sleep. That's not what happens at all. The guy doesn't even get a chance to develop his character, and it's a testament to him that he's still as over as he is.

Benoit has had chances in the past to get over on the stick and has failed, like you said though, he doesn't get a lot of chances because WWE don't have any faith in him. Just like Rob Van Dam and Bobby Lashley. They know they can't talk, so they don't let them talk too often.

 

Benoit doesn't come out and cut a promo that puts me to sleep, he just comes out and if I don't care about his opponent, I change the channel. It's different when it's a PPV but on TV, it's like, the match isn't going to be anything amazing and even if it's good, it'll be ruined by a commercial break, so I have no investment in his TV matches.

[Guest Luds]

That's the problem with the wrestling audiance today. Zero attention span. They're not actually wrestling fans, they're soap fans.

 

That's why a guy like Benoit who would have been champion for 3 years back in the 70's now can't get in the main event, and that's also why shit wrestlers like Chris Masters, Triple H, Randy Orton get on TV. Not on ring ability, just on the "character" that is written for them which they portray well and the push that the boss and the man banging the boss' daughter like.

 

There's no wrestling anymore, fans see 5 minute matches that all end with a chair shot except for the Triple H victory via pedigree.

 

That's WWE for ya.

 

The thing is that wrestlers CAN get over with zero mic skills. Look at Goldberg. He did it in WCW. But for that to happen, you'd need Trip to want to share the spotlight. That's like asking a turd not to smell...

[Coffey]

I don't think using Goldberg as your prime example is the best way to talk about wrestlers getting over without mic time. He started out 176-0, squashed everyone and even went over Hogan clean.

[Loss]

There's no wrestling anymore, fans see 5 minute matches that all end with a chair shot except for the Triple H victory via pedigree.

 

That's WWE for ya.

It's really not. Long, televised matches are more common in modern WWE than they've ever been in that company, maybe even more common than they ever have been in any nationally broadcast company. Four-six minute matches on TV have always been the norm. We went through a spell from 1998-2001 or so where the longest match on TV was an 8-minute main event, typically speaking, but we're long past that. Rey, Benoit, Finlay, etc have long matches on TV all the time. It happens on both shows too. It's part of the reason Benoit has gotten as over as he has in the past few years, because the TV format plays to his strengths.

 

WWE has more crap than any company. WWE also has more good wrestling than any other company. What makes watching the programming frustrating isn't the lack of good stuff so much as it is the good being drowned out by the bad so much of the time.

[Loss]

I don't think using Goldberg as your prime example is the best way to talk about wrestlers getting over without mic time. He started out 176-0, squashed everyone and even went over Hogan clean.

He was pushed and got over.

 

That's wrestling.

[Coffey]

...and even then, he still got some mic time. It was minimal, granted, but they (WCW) built-up the segment (Goldberg speaks...TONIGHT on NITRO!) and then Goldberg was short & sweet, but to the point (Who's next!?)

 

It stood out and people wanted to hear him talk. Of course, it was because they'd never heard him talk before, I'm sure, but it still was a decent way to, I don't know, "develop" his character?

 

I'm certainly not denying that Goldberg got pushed and was super, mega-over.

[Guest Luds]

...and even then, he still got some mic time. It was minimal, granted, but they (WCW) built-up the segment (Goldberg speaks...TONIGHT on NITRO!) and then Goldberg was short & sweet, but to the point (Who's next!?)

 

It stood out and people wanted to hear him talk. Of course, it was because they'd never heard him talk before, I'm sure, but it still was a decent way to, I don't know, "develop" his character?

 

I'm certainly not denying that Goldberg got pushed and was super, mega-over.

Exactly. That's how wrestlers were pushed throughout the 80's and 90's before squash matches of "heel" or "face" vs. jobber that you won't see again for 7 months on TV .

 

Vinny would just think of a new character, say Repo Man, have a few vignettes and have him pin 50 jobbers for 3 months before he ever got to work an established face. Or vice versa. Same thing on WCW/NWA.

 

Anyways, point is, it's possible to get people over without mic. Another example, Wrath. Kronik were quite popular in WCW's late days. All they did was squash jobbers with massive moves.

 

I'm not saying I want WWE TV to go back 20 years and only have heel/face vs. unknown jobber for 2h, but it certainly could help pushing people. The new technique for heels is to bring someone, have him win by cheating and keep it up (like Carlito). This isn't a way to properly push a heel. Just put him against jobbers for 2 weeks, have him destroy the jobber with his cool moves, say his catch phrase a few times and here you have it, a new heel. Having heels go over by cheating doesn't make them look good at all. Which is really my beef about WWE. Chair shots are so common now that they are as lame as a headlock.

[Loss]

They definitely need to cut down on the weapon shots and work on getting everyone's wrestling offense over. A clothesline at this point is sold the same way as HHH's sledgehammer. Using a weapon should be rare so it's a big deal when it happens.

[Guest Luds]

They definitely need to cut down on the weapon shots and work on getting everyone's wrestling offense over. A clothesline at this point is sold the same way as HHH's sledgehammer. Using a weapon should be rare so it's a big deal when it happens.

Certainly, I remember the days when the first TV chair shots were seen! Oh My God! A chair shot, the wrestler's dead!

 

Now in the current WWE it's impossible to win unless:

 

-You're Triple H (face or heel), then you can win via Pedigree and no one will ever get up from it.

-Faces: You hit the other wrestler with your finisher

-Heels: You use the ropes, a weapon, other heels help you or any other way to cheat.

 

That's why a started watching puro, any wrestler can put on one of their 3 or 4 finishers at any time and win the match. Why not bring that back in WWE? Sure, to have 3 or 4 finishers would probably mean that WWE needs to remove bans on certain moves as current WWE wrestlers can't even perforrm 4 moves overall! But What's wrong with having a heel pin a face without cheating? It wouldn't kill the face if it was common practice.

[Loss]

Well, I was watching the GH's Lawler comp (which I'll be talking about in MUCH more detail this weekend) and noticed that they got over Jos LeDuc's bearhug as something fierce by just having five men pull from either direction, while he was able to maintain his grip, selling the idea that 10 men couldn't break the hold. A bearhug. As a killer move. I know times have changed, but if a bearhug can get over as a death move, any move can get over as a death move, as long as it's pushed properly.

 

I think one of the things lost in modern wrestling is that you don't just push wrestlers. You push the announcers, the belts, the level of competition, the offense. You protect them and accentuate their strengths, just like wrestlers.

[Guest Luds]

Yeah but Loss, wrestlers aren't the stars, McMahon is the star. He's the main heel and he makes the wrestlers.

 

So only he may be pushed!