Hall of Fame Deep Dive: Miscellaneous

[Al]

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE/AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND/PACIFIC ISLANDS/AFRICA

Sypros Arion

L'Ange Blanc (Francisco Pino)

Big Daddy

John Da Silva

Roger Delaporte & Andre Bollet

Dominic DeNucci

Billy Joyce

George Kidd

Killer Karl Kox

Kendo Nagasaki

Jackie Pallo

Rollerball Mark Rocco

Johnny Saint

Ricki Starr

Adrian Street
Jose Tarres

Otto Wanz

 

Where to begin on this? It's awkward that the voters doing research on the French Catch footage also need to pass fair judgment on the British and Australian workers. I divided the group into three and I'll try and put it all together at the end.

 

FRENCH

Jose Tarres

L'Ange Blanc

Delaporte/Bollet

 

Tarres is probably the best candidate here. Blanc sounds impressive but a short peak. As an aside, it's interesting how well mask angles worked in old school wrestling.

 

BRITISH

Big Daddy

Johnny Saint

Rollerball Mark Rocco
George Kidd
Billy Joyce
Jackie Pallo
Kendo Nagasaki

 

Big Daddy is controversial. I look at current inductees like the Sheik. If it's over, it doesn't matter how poor the in-ring work is. George Kidd has an argument as the best lightweight of all time. (I wonder if that would open the door for pre-1920 lighter weight wrestlers.) Voters clearly favor work, Saint and Rocco both finished above 50% last time. I'm not enamored with them as candidates, but part of this exercise is to identify and promote the best choices. I don't think the ballot goes anywhere until Saint and/or Rocco are clear. Joyce and Nagasaki don't have momentum. Pallo might.

 

OTHERS
Dominic DeNucci
Adrian Street
Ricki Starr
Otto Wanz
Killer Karl Kox
Spiros Arion
John Da Silva

 

DeNucci may have used a racial slur to describe Obama in the White House but otherwise he's probably the best on here. Street was groundbreaking. Ricki Starr too. I feel like the entire ballot I would go up and down and say positive things, but elite? 

 

1. Big Daddy

2. Johnny Saint

3. Rollerball Mark Rocco

4. George Kidd

5. Adrian Street

6. Ricki Starr

7. Billy Joyce

8. Otto Wanz

9. Killer Karl Kox

10. Spiros Arion

[ethantyler]

Strongest section the ballot. Massive backlog that is very reminiscent of Mexico a few years back. 

1. George Kidd
2. Billy Joyce
3. Dominic DeNucci
4. Spiros Arion
5. Ricki Starr
6. Jose Tarres
7. Jackie Pallo
8. Kendo Nagasaki
9. L'Ange Blanc
10. Big Daddy

I voted for the top 3 this year. I voted for the top 4 last year. I can see myself voting for up to 6 in any given future year. 

George Kidd was the best of his weight division, influenced a plethora of future smaller guys, and was a mainstream star in Scotland (approx. 10% of the UK's total population is here - 5 million people). Dave thinks he's a no brainer; I can't go that far because we don't have enough attendance data on him - a common frustration for the UK candidates. Major TV star? Yes. Mainstream? Yes. Put butts on seats? I think so? 

Billy Joyce was also the best of his weight division - heavyweights. He's the missing link between HOFers Bert Assirati & Billy Robinson. Considered by the latter, and Karl Gotch, to be the best pure wrestler of his generation. No question about the in-ring ability or historical significance. Not a TV star because he was for the purist - a "real" wrestler. That raises questions about drawing power, but he was a 6x heavyweight champ so he must've drawn reasonably well. Lack of attendance data means, again, that we're left guessing here. 

Dominic DeNucci drew HOF calibre numbers in Australia from 1964-66, 1968, and 1970. 1964-66 specifically, you have an 18 month-ish stretch were he could be considered the top draw in the business worldwide. Between those years, Australia was drawing thousands (up to 9,000) on a weekly basis. That made it the hottest promotion in the world with the best pay. Jim Barnett, one of the promoters along with Johnny Doyle (who retired in 1967), confirmed that his number 1 guy was Dominic DeNucci. That covers a lot of names. No question in my mind he is a HOF level draw. No question he's historically significant (biggest star Australia ever had in the TV era). Questions over longevity are valid. He had 2.5 years that could be considered HOF level. Normally, I don't vote for guys with less than 3 years as a top 10 draw. I make an exception to the No.1 draw. He seems to have been the No.1 draw. So, he has my vote. Much stronger candidate than most think. 

Arion is interesting. Seems to be a top-5 all time draw in Greece, but that's mostly tours so longevity questions are valid. In Australia, Barnett said he was his no.2 guy but the data shows he really only drew in towns with big Greek populations. Did not have universal drawing power - big problem. Longevity? You're talking maybe 3 total HOF level years. Work was fine. Clearly historically significant for Greece. Overall, not good enough for this year. Might be for future years. 

Ricki Starr is hampered significantly by the lack of attendance data for his run in the UK & Europe as a whole. This guy had a great act, was a legit great wrestler, and drew big time. He was a beast in NY, very strong in LA, 4 unbeaten years in the UK, and seemed popular whenever he went into continental Europe too. My gut says HOFer but man, that lack of attendance data. I want objective confirmation of what I think I can see here. 

Phil Lions has made a strong case for Tarres. I won't step over his great work but suffice to say this guy was The guy in Spain and has the attendance data to put him into HOF level talk. I need more time to dig deeper, but in future I can absolutely see myself voting for him. 

7-10 are a step below for me and I could change my mind on them in any given year. Pallo was a major TV star, but his historical significance was mixed & work was average. Nagasaki is a personal favorite, but that alone is never going to be enough. L'Ange Blanc was a big deal for 2 years but, as I said before, less than 3 years is good enough only if you're in contention to be the no.1 guy in the world. He wasn't. Big Daddy was The guy in his era, major TV star, BUT this was during a time when ticket sales had collapsed (coinciding with the rise of Big Daddy btw), he sucked in-ring and his historical significance is clearly more negative than positive. He seems to get more support from clueless American reporters then he does British historians - Dave has confirmed this to me. Barring an incredibly weak ballot, I'm never voting for him. Negative historical significance + terrible in-ring = tough road ahead.    

I should disclose that I'm a UK guy. This section interests me more than the rest even though I do study the business worldwide and try to continue learning about, well, everything pro-wrestling. 

[ohtani's jacket]

If I could get one piece of footage out of the ITV Archives it would be a George Kidd match. I have no doubt that he is a worthy HOF candidate, I'd just love to see him in his prime and gauge how good he was. I don't recall him being on TV that often, and from memory, folks have said that when he did appear it was mostly showcase matches. I'm not sure if he was a huge TV personality. My image of him is a guy who drew folks to see him at the halls. It would be interesting to uncover who originated the George Kidd style and whether there were other pioneers. I was surprised by how much of Kidd's schtick Mantopolous uses in the French Catch footage. I'm assuming there is a George Kidd influence there.