Timbo Slice

Wow. This is crazy.

FUCK YES TAG MATCH.

God, Axel is just so bland.

Finish of the year.

I know there's arguments out there against how much a guy really draws in the modern age, but I never really saw Edge as a guy that people came to see more than anyone else. Much like Sasaki, there were always guys on the card that were the focal points, even if they high up on the card or even in the main event. I think I weigh drawing power more than other things when it comes to HOF, and Edge wasn't really that big of a draw. Hell, even Trips said so the other week. I don't see him as "top brand" champion, either. I saw him as a guy who was given the belt a lot as a transitional champ. In fact, here are his title reigns: WWE Title 1) 1/8-1/29/06 (Cena cash-in, Cena wins it right back) 2) 7/3-9/17/06 (Where he won the belt after RVD was about be released, transitions to Cena after a couple months) 3) 11/23-12/14/08 (Hardy's surprise replacement in Triple Threat, wins and then loses to Hardy in Triple Threat w/Trips) 4) 1/25-2/15/09 (Wins No DQ vs. Hardy, Lost in Elimination Chamber, only to go to WHC EC and win) World Heavyweight Championship 1) 5/8-7/17/07 (dropped due to injury) 2) 12/16/07-3/30/08 (Wins triple threat, sets up dropping belt to Taker) 3) 6/1-6/30/08 (CM Punk cash-in) 4) 2/15-4/5/09 (Jumps Kofi to take his place in EC, wins, loses to Cena in Triple Threat with Show) 5) 4/26-6/7/09 (Wins LMS vs. Cena, drops to Hardy in ladder match, CM Punk cash-in) 6) 12/19/10-2/15/11 (Wins Fatal 4-Way, stripped due to use of spear) 7) 2/15/11-4/12/11 (Beats Ziggler on same night to win title, vacates due to retirement) So out of all of the WWE title reigns that Edge has, one was to establish the MITB usage, one was so that there was an easy transition to Cena after RVD was a bonehead, one was so that the belt went from Triple H to Hardy without Hardy actually pinning Trips, and then to establish him back on the SD brand...while Trips got his win back without pinning the guy who won the belt in the first place. The WHC stuff is a bit better, where his first win could have really established him a lot better had he not gotten injured, and the second one set up him dropping the belt to Taker and the match went on last at WM. The rest of his reigns don't really do anything for me, especially the last two. Edge seems to be a guy to me who is "HOF talent" because he was a guy who created a lot of big moments in garbage-style matches and has so much TV on him that people who liked his style would make him easy to get into. In his earlier days, he was a hard worker, but was never the top guy in a match, having the benefit of working with Rey, Eddy, Angle, Benoit and the like. He was a good hand, he was semi-popular, but he wasn't a HOF guy in the sense that the WON HOF looks for. However, because there's a lot of new voters whose viewing is limited to wrestling in the last 10-15 years (as brought up earlier), he seems like another Ultimo Dragon pick.

It didn't kill Crocket's business because it worked the first time, and then they used it until they ran it dry. Which is why, after all these attempts at doing it by various means over the years with various promotions (and didn't get nearly as good a reaction), I don't get why they think it's still a viable option. It's completely contradictory to the end game. They're too caught up in the chase to realize that if nobody cares by the end of the chase, they've screwed up. They already screwed Bryan over, now they're going to continue to screw Bryan WHILE HE WINS. They keep crying wolf and then when he actually wins, it's not going to mean nearly as much. You have all these types of finishes that have been used for years and years, and within a month, you're doing a similar finish two PPVs in a row. They're not doing it nearly as well as they could be.

What sucks is that they're diluting what will happen when Bryan wins the belt for real. I understand the angle. I get why they're doing it this way, but if they don't figure out a different way to keep the belt away from Bryan, people are going to get over it because the window will close. There were a ton of different finishes they could do, and now they're gonna pull a bait-and-switch with the most over guy on the roster. It's like lining up every fan in the arena and kicking them in their collective crotches.

It's a cheap way to get the heat back, but man...not a fan.

Triple H coming in last in that poll is great.

With all the heels winning like this (Except Miz, big whoop), this is feeling very much like a Dusty finish-type end to the show.

Darren Young in Detroit doing a very recognizable Steiner spot is awesome. AND he apes Hero's spinning elbow off the ropes spot. PTP have really turned into something good. And Rollins is absolutely ridiculous.

Not enough Bobo love. Match was not what you would expect from those two. I still think Ziggler is trying to figure out how to be a face.

Ryback's refined his character in recent weeks and is now more than just some big dude. Him with Heyman is perfect.

Also, in 20 seconds, CM Punk made up for the crap on the show with that opening sequence.

It's like Johnny Ace is booking this like Baba. If he was booking.

Pretty sure the Heyman and Axel/Punk hype video has gone longer than the Divas match.

I liked that they really tried hard to put over the damage, but it was just not interesting in the least. Miz's offense is awesome for a heel but is CRAP for a babyface. He needs to turn back.

So Dylan starts this thread and doesn't include Chris Masters? Is this a socko account or something?

Basically all good wrestlers connect with the fans. Hell, there are plenty of bad wrestlers who connect with the fans. I don't see that as a positive. If that falls into the charisma category, then so be it, but guys like Toru Yano connect well with the fans and he's a bad wrestler. Is it offense? Is it selling? Is it technique? Is it his ability to pace out a match? I mean, the way I see Tanahashi, is that he has overtly flashy offense to the point where it's style over substance, he mostly sells only when convenient, he tends to let that flashy offense take away from the technique of doing simpler moves and paces out a match a lot like some other supposed "ring generals" who should let the other guy pace a match. Kurt Angle paced the majority of his matches horribly unless a guy like Taker or Eddy or Austin brought him down a notch or 20. Tanahashi's similar in that his best matches have been because he's let the other guy take the lead and Tanahashi fills in the blanks for the most part. People who go crazy over the Minoru Suzuki match from last year and credit Tanahashi for the work must have missed the other big matches Tanahashi had where the other guy was the better part of the match. The only match I can think of where Tanahashi really made things his and the match was great was the Goto match from '07, but that was also Goto's best match ever, so your mileage will vary there. And before anyone brings up Okada again, Okada has been the best part of all five matches they've had, and as good as Okada has been, he's not a top-flight wrestler quite yet. He's pushed as one, obviously, but he still has his own faults to work on. If someone makes the Okada thread, be my guest and we'll go through them. Now, Cena haters would be quick to point out that Cena's had plenty of big matches where he was "carried." The big difference between Tanahashi and him is that when it comes to his opponent, Cena is much more adept to balancing things out to match up who he's working with. He'll brawl with Umaga, he'll build an epic with Punk, Shawn or Rocky and he'll get technical with Bryan. In fact, compare the Suzuki match with the Bryan match and you'll see that Cena actually tries to work things into the match that give it a different feel from your normal Bryan match, and makes Bryan's big moments that much more important. Cena understands how to work a big match better than anyone in the world right now. Tanahashi just happens to work a lot of big matches. I think we're really missing something key in all these points people are or aren't making: Tanahashi is easily accessible to people who want to watch puroresu. He's easy to get into and because he's got so much on tape, people can seek out his big matches and enjoy him because he wrestles a different style than basically every WWE guy they see on TV each week. The people arguing against him have roots in older Japan stuff or are fans of different styles completely and since Tanahashi's style hasn't really changed for a while, people have soured on him over time or prefer some of his contemporaries to him instead (Shibata and Nakamura, for example).

I'll say this about Tanahashi. I do like how he paces and lays out a match. The main reason he's so loved is because he can get people into stretch runs pretty consistently. He makes things exciting more often than not. He doesn't have the best offense but it's not the worst. I've seen guys with worse offense (Like Edge, as Eric pointed out). He's normally crisp with moves like his frog splash and his suplexes. But the dude is pretty ridiculously charismatic. And he's flashy. I guess that's why people like him. One thing that hurts Tanahashi is that unless he totally hands over the match to his opponent, his worst tendencies come through (spotty selling, trying to overcomplicate his spots, blowing off psychology to get to the finish). The reason why the Suzuki match worked so well was that they built the match around Suzuki's traditional spots and Suzuki changed things up to keep Tanahashi's stuff looking fresh. The Okada stuff can get stale because Tanahashi chooses between arm and leg work, which Okada always wants to shrug off to get his offense in. And then if Okada responds in kind, Tanahashi can blow that stuff off, too. Why I like Cena is that he understands what his opponent wants to do more and gives him a lot more to work with. I've seen him work so many different types of matches up top just because he was facing different guys, whereas rarely do you see Tanahashi work to his opponent's strengths. That's another issue with this comparison. When we think of an Ace, we think of someone who, by definition, can get a good match out of anyone because of their elasticity. Tanahashi doesn't have what Cena has in that regard at all.

2009 - 8,865 (Sasuke and Chono appearances, Ibushi/Harashima main) 2010 - 8,800 (Tajiri/Dick Togo, Marufuji/Omega, Dino vs. Hard Gay/Real Gay, Harashima/Sekimoto main) 2011 - 8,660 (Ibushi/Devitt, Sapp/Dino, Kudo/Shuji Ishikawa) 2012 - 10,124 (Fujinami appearance, Minoru Suzuki/Takagi, Makabe/Harashima vs. Ito/Ishikawa, Ibushi/Omega main) 2013 - 8,500 (No special appearances, a lot of 6-mans, Dino/Ibushi main) and 9,000 (Akebono, Kensuke and Nakajima appearances, Okada/Ibushi, Irie/Harashima main) Might as well call 2013 17,500 drawn.

They've normally claimed about 9k since they started running Sumo Hall, for what it's worth.

For the time they wrestled, Yokota was so far above her contemporaries that it was a lot like the best in other sports (Jordan, Bonds, Rice). They were just so much better than anyone else that they looked even greater than when compared to greats across time. My perfect analogy is the 8/22/85 show, AJW's best show of the 80s for some, and while many put the Nagayo/Devil match as the match of the night, Yokota took the greener Lioness Asuka and crafted a fucking masterpiece. Everything was smooth as silk, made sense...it was incredible stuff. So if Yokota is the best of her generation, and you go along the lines with Chigusa, Bull, Hokuto, Ozaki, Aja, Kansai (?), Toyota, and Meiko, do any of the other eight shine brighter than their contemporaries like Jaguar did? I can see a case for Chigusa, as she basically owned the later half of the 80s. Bull ruled for the majority of the early half of the 90s before giving way to Aja completely, who then gave way to Toyota. But around that time, you had Hokuto being the most unique wrestler of her era and putting on these incredibly emotional matches (many that stand the test of time today), Ozaki and Kansai as the best non-AJW wrestlers of that era, Toyota taking that go-go-go style to another level for better or worse...then Aja took over the scene again in many ways for GAEA, who then helped make Meiko that last great joshi wrestler. Hokuto's match with Meiko did so, as well. Just by going through that timeline, I think you have Yokota as the clear front runner, followed by Chigusa and Aja. Hokuto is the wild card for a peak that was possibly the best out of any of the non-Jaguar candidates. Bull's longevity helps her, Toyota's polarizing style is really a love/hate thing...it's a very good topic. I think while probably the Top 5 is going to be some combination of no doubt candidates, making a Top 10 or Top 15 could make for some very interesting lists.

Well, supposedly, a 30-man tryout at the WWE Dev Center occurred a few days ago and Edwards and Richards supposedly were the cream of that particular crop. At the very least, ROH can do short term contracts for remaining dates with the belts, work yet another "We're going to the big leagues" angle, and it'll be fine. That July show sounded interesting, though.

I like Sasaki for the most part. A lot of his big singles matches from 2000 on actually stand up really well, and I've lightened up on the Kobashi match over time. Still a part of perhaps the best NJPW heavyweight tag match ever. Has two of the best Dome main events ever vs. Tenryu and Kawada. Kobashi match is basically a co-main event, too. Totally underrated tag wrestler in my eyes. Now, on the grand scale, do I put him amongst the best in Japan? I saw him in like that 4th/5th/6th tier or so when people were talking about the tiers of great wrestlers. In fact, I prefer him to someone like Hase, who is a contemporary and doesn't have Sasaki's resume when it comes to big matches. Granted, Hase never got the push Sasaki did, but from my recollection, Hase seems to be liked a lot more than Sasaki, which stemmed more from people still being big fans of his with the Steiners tags, his limited AJPW work and the Hashimoto title match.