Loss

Dave Meltzer is never wrong when it comes to news, actually.

I just e-mailed Meltzer and he cleared things up a little:

Oh boy. From the Torch: I'm hoping Meltzer will have more on this in the Observer. Or, maybe HTQ can answer, has he already?

We've had a mild slow down in traffic and I just wanted to get a feel for what it is you guys would like to see more of in the wrestling folder. By that, I mean, do you want to go back to doing the Thoughts On The Following Wrestlers posts every day? Do you want to talk about matches more? Do you prefer that we talk about current wrestling or past wrestling? Do you want more talk about Puroresu? About lucha? About the indies? Should we focus mostly on WWE? Basically, any feedback/suggestions you have on making the wrestling folder a better place can be put in this thread. Have fun.

If I had to pick one from the year, it's Juvi/Kidman from the 11/16/98 Nitro, which was a real **** match. I love how the crowd couldn't possibly care any less about the match early on, and they're on the edge of their seats by the end. Juvi regained the cruserweight title, carried the match and sold souvenirs in the stands, while Kidman hit his spots and sold his peril well enough. They had a lot of good matches in '98, but this was the best of them all, not counting the Starrcade three-way with Rey Misterio. Another standout is DDP/Sting from Nitro in March. I think they topped themselves on Nitro in April of '99, but Sting still had his best match in years here. They should have explored the Sting/DDP feud more than they did, because those two never had a bad match, even if they only had two matches. Page/Benoit never worked as well because Benoit wasn't allowed to do everything in his arsenal without making Page look second rate, but DDP and Sting were comparable in skill, and as a result had better chemistry. There's also the super fun Jericho/Eddy tags, even if most of the matches were fairly short. Jericho/Eddy v Benoit/Malenko from Thunder in 01/98 is the best five-minute match of all time, and I believe they had a rematch on Nitro that went a little longer. They also went 30 minutes on the Brian Hildebrand tribute show later that year, but I still haven't seen that match because it's so hard to find, and it's the match I want to see more than anything else I haven't seen honestly. I hope Jericho goes to Smackdown and teams up Eddy after Eddy turns heel, just because they could be the best tag team in ages. Just so it's known, Kawada/Kobashi from 06/12 is my MOTY, but I still haven't seen Tamura/Kohsaka from RINGS on 06/27. Matt and Jeff Hardy had a really great singles match against each other in OMEGA on 07/31/98. Matt was doing his Surge gimmick and Jeff was under a mask as Willow The Whisp. Match went about 35 minutes and was 2/3 falls, and saw some great selling from both. Believe it or not, it was a Hardy Boyz match where the selling was better than the offense! Worth seeing for Jeff's entrance alone. There's also a nice Hardyz/Thrillaz match from 12/98 that is in some ways better than the rematch in January of '99. I believe both matches are on the Hidden Menace Rising OMEGA tape, if it can be found anywhere at this point. (I have a master! Go me!) There's tons of stuff I am not mentioning, because WCW had such a great, consistent undercard at this point in time. The WWF's TV stuff was mostly lackluster, although there were a few nice matches, with Foley/Funk from May standing out the most.

Rock/Austin is worth seeing to see a nice ***1/2 match that no one ever talks about. Plenty of people talk about Misawa/Kawada from 01/99, and it's a fun match, but it stands out to me more than anything for the cringe moment that was the introduction of the Ganso bomb. That's why I call it "enjoyable for all the wrong reasons". I have to ask -- how come you haven't named any matches in any of these threads? Surely, you've seen something you've liked at some point that hasn't already been pimped to high heavens.

From Meltzer:

When wrestling became a lucrative business for both genders in the late 90s, the locker room hazing really should have stopped.

Good interview. I think they aimed high with the first diva search in terms of the quality of the women (Carmella excluded), because the end result is that they had a lot of women who were admittedly far too classy to be part of the wrestling business. I've heard it said by more than one person that Michelle McCool, for example, was WAY too nice and good-hearted to be anywhere close to a WWE locker room.

I'll get the WWF out of the way quickly, since they did a grand total of TWO matches I really liked that year, and they rarely get discussed. Steve Austin v The Rock - Backlash 1999 It's not exactly WM X-7, but it's still a hell of a rollercoaster with some really great nearfalls and tremendous heat. Rock is still learning at this point and Austin wouldn't return to top form until late 2000, but it's still a very smartly worked match with some interesting twists, even if it is overbooked toward the end. Very nice final blowoff to Rock's heel run. Steve Austin v Val Venis - WWF Smackdown 10/99 My apologies for not having the exact date on this. This is really a terrific wrestling match and reminds me of Bret/Hennig in some ways actually, with Austin as sort of a brawling Bret Hart and Val Venis in total Hennig heel mode. Austin sells like mad for him and there are some terrific chain wrestling sequences. It's a swank little match. Now for WCW ... WCW had an abysmal 1999 because of the booking, and they also lost $13,000,000, so it's not their standout year or anything, but there were some really awesome TV matches going on in the undercard until October when Russo came in. I'd recommend these from Nitro: 01/04 - Rey/Kidman v Juvi/Psicosis (Texas Tornado tag match) 01/18 - Jericho v Booker 01/18 - Juvi v Psicosis 02/08 - Rey v Blitzkrieg 02/22 - Bret v Booker 03/01 - Kidman v Psicosis 03/01 - Rey v Bigelow 03/01 - Benoit v Bret 03/15 - Rey v Kidman 04/05 - Rey/Kidman v Raven/Saturn 04/12 - Rey v Juvi 04/12 - Kidman v Psicosis 04/12 - Flair v Sting 04/19 - Benoit/Malenko v Scott/Steve Armstrong 04/19 - Rey v Juvi v Psi v Blitzkrieg 04/19 - DDP v Goldberg 04/26 - Sting v DDP 05/17 - Raven/Saturn v Benoit/Malenko 09/13 - Benoit v Malenko 10/04 - Bret v Benoit That would make a hell of a comp right there, actually. Basically, anything featuring Benoit in 1999 was gold, as he was on a roll, carrying anything he could find that called itself a wrestler to a good match. Rey lost a step, but was still better than most in the company. Juvi was tremendous in 1999. From Thunder: 02/18 - Jericho v Juvi Really good match with a hilarious pre-match angle where Jericho unveils Ralphus in a dress to show Perry Saturn what a real man looks like in a dress. Great heat with Jericho being a total dick and Juvi bringing loads of awesome highspots. Probably ***1/4 or so, which is good, considering it's a fairly short TV match. 02/18 - Benoit/Malenko v Horace/Brian Adams (Cage Match) This doesn't look like it would be much on paper, but it's a tremendous match, with Benoit standing out more than anyone, with a nice build to his epic first-ever dive off the top of the cage. 03/18 - Rey v Juvi Rey defends his new cruiserweight title. These two always worked well together. I think Juvi played a big part in Rey getting over as big as he did in WCW, giving him matches like this. Of what I've seen, the standout indy match that year was Hardyz v Serial Thrillaz from OMEGA on 01/29/99. Finding OMEGA tapes these days is nearly impossible, which is a shame, considering they were a really fun indy group while they lasted, and it's a good glimpse at guys like the Hardys and Shane Helms (and some guys who never quite made it like Mike Maverick) working without any real limitations. Jeff Hardy was a much more complete wrestler before becoming a sloppy spot machine in the WWF. The match in question is actually a nice, traditional Southern tag with some really crazy highspots toward the end. It does get pimped a lot, so I'm mentioning it only because I think it was the indy MOTY. I have some lucha sitting at home that Tim Cooke sent me a while back that I still haven't watched, from '99. When I do, I'll return to this thread if anything catches my eye. The Japanese companies really had average years considering the excellence of years before, so there's not anything I would really recommend going out of one's way to see in AJPW or NJPW. The Misawa/Kawada ganso bomb match in January is fun for all the wrong reasons, and Misawa/Kobashi from June has its moments, but isn't as good as their earlier stuff. NJ had such weird booking in '99, both in the heavies and the juniors division, that it's hard to point to anything there are great either. There's a lot of GAEA that gets pimped on a regular basis that I haven't seen. It would appear they had a good year. Anyone wanna add anything?

There is no one in the company, with the possible exception of Eddy Guerrero, who has had memorably good matches with bad opponents. Jericho is often criticized for not having ****1/2 matches with Big Show and Kane, as if anyone has. But if we're talking about Jericho's ability to carry slugs, witness his total carry job of Kane, almost against Kane's will, when he dropped the IC title to him in September of 2002; witness him getting passable matches out of Scott Steiner, Bill Goldberg and Kevin Nash in 2003; witness him carrying Hulk Hogan to his best non-Rock matches in over 10 years; witness him carrying Jeff Hardy at No Way Out 2003. And of course, Meltzer always refers to the phantom match where he got ***1/2 out of Viscera on a house show Dave saw live. Hell, Jericho got two decent matches out of CHYNA. If you want to criticize Jericho's carrying ability, be my guest, but if you're comparing him to his WWE peers, you'll have to explain when HHH, HBK (since his comeback), Angle and Benoit have had great matches with slugs since being in WWE.

But it does matter. I want to know, based on those matches, why you'd call Jericho a bad worker. I'll admit that he's not Benoit, but the whole point of a message board is to discuss things. Otherwise, why bring it up?

Does WWE not realize they are missing out on the biggest opportunity here by not turning all of this into an angle? Yeah, the potential for the situation to turn explosive is certainly there, but that's part of the appeal of it. The fans buy into this, and obviously, the casual fans know about it through word of mouth now, considering the MSG reaction, so they might as well make some money off of it. It would draw like gangbusters if they did it right.

I think it's fascinating how the old, beaten up and no longer sexy boy is more over than the cocky, womanizing rock star was in the 1990s. I guess it's because his character is more human now, but he's infinitely more likeable than he was as a babyface in 1996.

Jericho is ten times the worker Angle is but that is for another debate. Agreed. Angle is a better athlete, but Jericho is a better seller, is better at structuring a match, is better at creating drama within the confines of a match and is better at getting heat.

Coffey, what's your opinion on these matches? Chris Jericho v HHH - Fully Loaded 2000 Chris Jericho v Chris Benoit - Royal Rumble 2001 Chris Jericho v Chris Benoit v Eddy Guerrero v X-Pac - No Way Out 2001 Chris Jericho & Chris Benoit v Steve Austin & HHH - RAW 05/21/01 Chris Jericho v The Rock - No Mercy 2001 Chris Jericho v The Rock - Vengeance 2001 Chris Jericho v The Rock - Royal Rumble 2002 Chris Jericho v HHH - Wrestlemania XVIII Chris Jericho v HHH - Judgment Day 2002 Chris Jericho v Shawn Michaels - Wrestlemania XIX Now, overall, I think Jericho is very overrated as a worker (and am even having that exact argument at another board), but I do think he's one of the top five workers in WWE. On a global scale or an all-time scale, he's nothing special, but he's better than almost all of his WWE peers.

I think Marty hit the nail on the head. In Jericho's mind, I think "10 years ago" equates to his time in WCW, even if he showed up there only nine years ago. In the past, he made his feelings on Hogan's position in WCW quite known.

Remember, Trish is a bad person for not wanting to have sex with Viscera, and thinking Lita is a worthless slut. Yeah.

I'd rather see the second three-disc Flair set than the Warrior set, and I think the Flair set would sell better, if the sales of the first set were any indication.

I'm unable to find a good recap or transcript; I'm only finding tidbits here and there. Basically, Jericho said it was fucked up that Matt Hardy was at home rehabbing his knee and got fired for doing nothing wrong. He called it bad business on WWE's part. He was also asked about the focus staying on HHH, even when he's not champ, and Jericho said it's nothing new, because it happened to him, and Benoit, and Orton, and now it's happening to Batista. He said HHH is the guy they have all the time invested in, and personally, he would have liked to have seen things handled a little differently, but that overall, he's happy with his time in the company. He then said HHH is what Hogan was 10 years ago. He denied ever saying that he wanted out of the company when his contract expires this summer, but also said that he doesn't know what's going to happen. I think someone like Jericho is safe, like Van Dam, because they know if they released him, he could jump to TNA and make a huge impact, but I'm sure this is going to get him some heat.

SD needs Michaels, but they also need Jericho, Orton and Christian. I don't see many programs for Shawn on Smackdown unless he's turned heel.

Christian was fucking GREAT on the mic. With the strides he has made in the ring in the past 12 months, and his speaking ability, there's no reason they can't move him to Smackdown and program him with Cena. Putting Christian at that level is actually less of a leap than elevating JBL cold turkey was, and I think Christian stands a better chance of getting over, provided they let him establish himself before actually doing that match. He smokes Jericho on the mic at this stage of both of their careers. Jericho does seem motivated to work with Benjamin though, perhaps because he's the hot new star and the potential is there to have a good match. The song did suck, as Helmet said. Y2J is almost completely dead in the water. The crowd turning on Lita was glorious. Trish tried everything she could to keep them against her, and did everything right, but it didn't quite work. She's still the most compelling person on RAW. It's a shame they had to fire everyone who could be an opponent for her, and it's also a shame that they're making her get Viscera over. She deserves much better, and if this is all they have planned for her on RAW, switch her to Smackdown and let her lead heel after heel toward John Cena. The chemistry is there and it would get over well if over time a Vitamin C reunion took place with Trish leading the way as they together tried to destroy Cena. You can also do Jericho/Christian v Eddy/Rey, Jericho v Taker, Christian v Eddy, Christian v Rey, Jericho v Cena, Christian v Cena, Jericho v Rey, Jericho v Eddy, Jericho/Angle/Christian/JBL v Cena/Eddy/Rey/Show, Jericho v Show and tons of other matches I haven't even mentioned. Yeah, it would take a lot to reunite Jerichristian after all the feuding they've done, but if it was played out over time, with Jericho in Christian's shadow this time around, it could work out. It would also give both Edge and Christian a chance to get away from each other. The Heartthrobs suck. I have no clue why Meltzer and Cornette were singing their praises so highly. The gimmick is just like Kwee Wee's gimmick in WCW, and no one was calling Alan Funk a future megastar. Regal is a really great ring general, as it was obvious the 'Throbs were nervous and he was helping them keep their cool. Taijiri was total Taijiri-by-the-numbers, which is acceptable, but not anything great. Hogan's return was done properly, but it's depressing to me that this is what pro wrestling is, especially when I think of Ric Flair's place by comparison. Yeah, Hogan has always been in a different league as a star than Flair, but there's no reason that Flair couldn't have been protected in the same way as he got older so he could come back and get that huge return pop and one-time buyrate against other big names, working the occasional dream match. That's the way it should be, but Flair has been beaten down so much so consistently that I never see that happening, and it's too late to fix the problem now. Hogan/HBK ... yeah, it's a match of two big names, but there's zero chemistry in the characters there, and I don't think that's going to be a viable match for them this summer if that's what they're thinking. They'd be better off running Hogan/Hassan in singles after the tag match (if he's going to stay around, and you never know with Hogan).

Well, that's what Misterio wanted, so I guess that feud isn't over too. If they want to establish themselves as worthwhile performers, being paired with Eddy and Rey out of the gate won't hurt them.