Loss

I don't quite see it that way. I see it more as a case where "revisionists" (for lack of a better term) don't have diametrically opposed takeaways after from watching the footage from those who did at the time. It's more that the differences in opinion from generally established canon get more discussion because they warrant more discussion. But it's not like the idea that Ric Flair or Jushin Liger is a great worker is controversial in any corner of wrestling fandom online. Brock and Kurt are surprisingly high, no doubt, but I don't think that serves as a referendum on the entire process. We spend a lot of time talking about Shawn Michaels, Kurt Angle, Tiger Mask and Hiroshi Tanahashi because the opinions some hold are a little more rare. But it's not like our ideas about All Japan in the 90s, for example, are all that controversial -- be it here or anywhere online. Nomination threads are great, but sometimes they made cases for greatness that weren't necessarily quantified. To a novice, pointing out someone's greatness may mean anything from that wrestler being a number one contender to that wrestler being somewhere non-specific on the list, which is why quantifying it is important. I'll also add that individual threads for each nominee -- and this is just a thought I had today -- fosters siloed discussions of wrestlers when the whole purpose of the project is to make comparisons. Ultimately, I think the comparison threads probably were more fruitful in terms of getting others to compare like wrestlers with unlike wrestlers. You could argue that in terms of a new way to look at and think about wrestling, this list shows how tiny what we sometimes think of as our circle really is compared to Internet-based smart wrestling fandom at large. But I'm surprised that anyone wouldn't already know that, or expect the results to show anything but that.

There is no such thing as a "PWO favorite".

Dundee should appeal to workrate fans more than anyone else in Memphis. I think he's a terrific mat wrestler and cuts a hard pace. He's great at creating movement, sometimes even working in lightning-quick details that are really cool. Young Dundee could hold his own working a modern style.

Where did you have Owen? I think that somehow, in our sleep-deprived state, we didn't talk about him. Another casualty of my sloppy list. I realized I said, "Oh, I had him higher" when I didn't actually rank him. Owen, Choshu, Yamazaki, Bull ... not sure what I was thinking.

I have a lot of regrets about my list, and one of them is not ranking Bull Nakano. I think I still would have had her below Nakamura, though. I think she was a great worker, but even in having not seen as much, I do think Nakamura reached more transcendant heights than Bull really did as a singles champion. Some really great performances from her as WWWA champ from 1990-1992, but no true classic title defenses in my opinion, although a few came close to that level. Nakamura, other than Virus, is the guy that I ranked the highest having seen the least. I didn't get him at first because I thought his flailing just made him look sloppy. I do get him a lot more now. I loved the Ibushi and Styles match, and thought he hit a stride as a performer there that Bull never quite hit. A small sampling I know, but I felt confident enough to rank him high. I didn't enjoy the Sakuraba match as much, but I feel like I would if I watched it again now. I think I was expecting a fake shoot, then I saw Nakamura come out with his pomp and circumstance and it distracted me.

I think Owen was in some ways the best Hart brother, but I can't think of a better example of the difference between the terms "best" and "greatest" than in comparing Owen and Bret.

I don't think that is even close to Tamura's best non-Han match. Yeah, almost definitely not even in Tamura's top ten, although Han did surpass the Vader match without Tamura.

I know it's possible in theory, but how do you watch a lot of Han without seeing any Tamura? What specific matches are being watched in that case?

I'd have a lot more to say about Tamura's placement, which is not awful but is disappointing, if my bummed out quota wasn't already being filled entirely by Prince. Maybe in a few days.

I think that's part of it, but Muto also had the American run that is remembered pretty well. I wouldn't be surprised if we got some ballots with him as the only Japanese guy.

As I said in the reactions thread, Jericho was the ultimate jack-of-all-trades, master of none. He was just competent enough at every aspect of wrestling to be dangerous.

It's worth noting that by 1995 (maybe even 1994 -- but that may just be booking), Pillman was already showing signs of decline. The Badd match was a shocker, because it's not like Pillman had done anything to stand out for a long, long time before that.

When two guys are accustomed to always being the driver, starting the car can be tough.

I think it was a comment on Jericho finishing above him.

This is interesting because I think Jericho's greatest weakness may be working matches where the goal is for *him* to come out of it looking like a million bucks. That's not because of some idealistic selflessness or anything like that. But I think he can accomplish "We want people to love this match" or "We want this other guy to seem like he's ready for the next level" really well. But "We want you to look like a million bucks"? Ain't happening.

I actually thought it was a pretty solid match, probably a step better than the Jericho match in January. But not at the level I hoped. Still, I am just trying to encourage people to be self aware of their biases -- not even discard them, but acknowledge them. It's cool to rag on Jericho, and lately, it's deserved. It's not cool to rag on Sami Zayn, but by the same standard, it's only fair.

I am comparing first Raw match to first Raw match. The cries of Jericho being awful for not having a great match with Styles began after the first Raw match.

How many times has Zayn had a chance to have a great match with Styles? Not as many. But people were panning the first Raw match Jericho and Styles had pretty hard. Not much at all about the first Raw match these two had.

Answer this question and you're a goner. That goes for everyone.

Sami Zayn didn't have a great match with Styles either, but I'll note how quiet people have been about that.

Jericho is experiencing a career low at the moment, and I think that makes it easy to discard that he's had a terrific run in WWE. As I said on WWTP, his peaks as a star were rarely consistent with his peaks as a worker. I recently went through 2002-2005 Raw and found him to be the guy that was in some ways holding it all together -- as a babyface, as a heel, as a top star and as a midcarder, as both a singles wrestler and a tag wrestler. Watch the 2005 Elimination Chamber sometime (an underrated great match) and see just how much of that is in Jericho's hands. He gave Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, Scott Steiner and Goldberg their best early 00s WWE matches. He has weaknesses as a worker for sure and we all know what they are, but he managed to overcome that in a way that he became one of the premiere output guys in WWE history. I do feel like he never quite found a way to project himself as a star at the level everyone hoped for, but he did become arguably the best utility player the company has ever had, working up and down the card with everyone who has come down the pike in the last 15+ years. The ultimate jack of all trades, master of none.

Like Undertaker, most of the work was done for Hogan before the bell rang. All he had to do was be where he was supposed to be and not screw things up. Both had moments of being very good and even great sometimes. But their greatness overall seems to me to be largely the result of hype and positioning more than any skills or merits. There are exceptions, of course. There always are.

Hulkamania could only happen in the Reagan era. After the reality of civil rights, Vietnam and the sexual revolution, people just wanted to be told everything was fine and not to worry for a while. Hogan was transparently phony and insincere, but at least said and did all of the right things, which was all that mattered then.

Hogan shook his leg to sell bodyslams. Stop it with the good selling talk.

Crazy talk! And I do think influence matters on a list like this. It's not enough to make a case on its own, but it's something I think is an added positive.