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Mentioned before that these are recommended for Loss: 1975 Disc One 03/13/75 Jack Brisco vs Bobo Brazil 03/13/75 Baba/Tsuruta vs Dory/Terry 04/10/75 Jumbo Tsuruta vs Bob Orton 06/26/75 Antonio Inoki vs Tiger Jeet Singh 07/25/75 Destroyer vs Spirit 1975 Disc Two 10/09/75 Antonio Inoki vs Lou Thesz 10/30/75 Destroyer vs Stan Hansen 10/30/75 Giant Baba vs Kintaro Oki 12/11/75 Antonio Inoki vs Billy Robinson 1975 Open League Disc One 12/06/75 Opening Ceremony 12/06/75 Harley Race vs Dusty Rhodes 12/06/75 Abdullah vs Dory Funk 12/06/75 Giant Baba vs Baron Von Raschke 12/09/75 Hiro Matsuda vs Dusty Rhodes 12/09/75 Jumbo Tsuruta vs Horst Hoffman 12/09/75 Dory Funk vs Baron Von Raschke 12/09/75 Giant Baba vs Harley Race 1975 Open League Disc Two 12/13/75 Pat O'Connor vs Mighty Inoue 12/13/75 Destroyer vs Don Leo Jonathan 12/13/75 Jumbo Tsuruta vs Rusher Kimura 12/13/75 Giant Baba vs Abdullah 12/15/75 Pat O'Connor vs Dick Murdoch 12/15/75 Dory Funk vs Horst Hoffman 12/15/75 Abdullah vs Don Leo Jonathan 12/15/75 Giant Baba vs Jumbo Tsuruta 1975 Open League Disc Three 12/17/75 Mighty Inoue vs Hiro Matsuda 12/17/75 Destroyer vs Horst Hoffman 12/17/75 Dory Funk vs Don Leo Jonathan 12/17/75 Jumbo Tsuruta vs Abdullah 12/17/75 Giant Baba vs Rusher Kimura 12/18/75 Jumbo Tsuruta vs Dory Funk 12/18/75 Giant Baba vs Horst Hoffman 12/18/75 Closing Ceremony They are *not* all great or good matches. The one nice thing about them is that it does give you quite a few comps. You get to see what Dory does against Don Leo, Abby and Von Raschke to compare with what others did with Don Leo, Abby and Von Raschke. His match with Hoffman is a direct comp with Hoffman's matches with Destroyer, Jumbo and Baba. In general, Dory wins in all the comps and the Open League might be the most definative group of matches out there that show his skills as a top worker. Considering all the jokes I've aimed at Dory over the years, that's a pretty high compliment from me. On the "fun" scale, O'Connor vs Inoue is quite a bit of fun for matwork, and a good contrast to Inoue vs. Matsuda (and through it to Destroyer vs. Matsuda) and why some of us poke at the quality of Matsuda's matwork. O'Connor vs Murdoch heads in an entirely different direction (Stooge Dick), which can be entertaining in its own way. There are matches on these sets that "just don't work" that offer great contrasts to later match ups that show what happens when they're more in synch. I'm thinking of the Jumbo-Baba and Jumbo-Kimura here that contrast to the 1976 matches that, for whatever hiccups here and there than they might have, really kick the living shit out of their 1975 pairings. In directly, the same would go in comping the 1975 Baba-Rusher and Jumbo-Rusher with the 1977 Open Tag League Baba & Jumbo vs. Rusher & Kasatsu match, since that later tag match offers a fuller picture of a "heated interpromotional league match" done right that's only hinted at in the 1975 singles matches. It also puts the Billy-Inoki into its era context, which is even more refined by watching the 1976 matches Billy had with Baba and Jumbo. What you see is Billy and Inoki doing a fair amount of "cool stuff", but it also being disjointed with hard resets and Billy tending to work to his own drummer, especially when he seems to strongly go off the script down the stretch. I think interesting contrasts are the Dory-Horst match, where you have two wrestlers with widly different styles and Dory being forced to work very much out of his comfort zone. But in contrast Billy-Inoki, Horst and Dory seem to reach across their differences in style and working philosophy to craft a whole match that fits well together. And of course the Baba-Billy from 1976 is a match where the two lay out a wonderfully structured match that has plenty of time to breath (9:24, 6:08, 5:45), but remains nicely focused and tight. I could ramble on more about those various 1969-76 disks, along with the 1977-79 AJPW Tag League disks, and the original version of the 1977-79 non-league. They get a little confusing since sells both the older/original version of Frank's 70s video comps, and also the newer versions. I suspect that on some trader's lists there get all mixed up. But they are chalk full of a shitload of both quailty matches and also matches that are useful for comparing. John

Don doesn't look much better in any other matches. There are other Don matches from the Open League that makes it clear that his Agile Giant spots are pretty much the same spots in every match, a bit like Taker walking the ropes. They start coming across as staged as Flair taking the corner bump or being tossed off the top. There really isn't much beyond them. There's a 60s match with Bill Miller where he shows more working of holds in a single match than Don shows in all of his matches-on-tape combined. Don ends up being one of the more disappointing guys on tape. John

I'm not sure that's any worse than Ross when he was bottoming for the promotion. He'd parrot lines as if WWF/WWE fans were too stupid to grasp them. Lawler would as well. Announcing in this country sucks. It's as much due to the desires of the people behind the scenes giving them instructions than the announcers themselves. John

Sadly, this seems to be what the people who run the business want out of their announcers. Could Mike revert back to being the decent color man that he was at his best in WCW? Beats me. I wouldn't mind giving is a shot since the level of wrestling announcing sucks. Hard to tell how much of that is Tenay's fault. I suspect that RYDER has more influence over people's pushes and storylines over the years than Mike. John

I haven't seen Dave fantasy book in a decade and a half. I don't know if he could do it up and down a card for a sustained period. The other problem would be getting elements of the talent and the rest of "creative" to go along with him. There would be people out to kill things simply because it's "Dave's Idea". Dave is far more useful in his current role - someone who, if you get along with him, you can bounce ideas off of, get critism from, etc. Be it directly, or from someone else "in the room". John

I don't know exactly the "whos" as much anymore since I tend to think most of the people in the business have lost their minds. I think more in terms of "slots" rather than who. If I had a large bucket promotion rather than a multibrand clusterfuck like the WWE, I'd want people with some of the following general responsibilities: (a) Head Booker You need one guy at the top who ties into your own vision of where the company is headed. Big picture guy. Willing to delegate lesser details. Open to a variety of wrestling rather than a narrow "this is the right way". Loads of other things such as not looking to get his best friends into the company, etc. ( b ) Assistant Booker I think a Head needs a strong Assistant who can pull together the various details, making sure various things up and down the roster aren't conflicting. For example, you don't want to have Rey's good buddy Juve turning on him the same week (or even month) that you're running your Hogan-Orndorff turn. The Head has been working on and planning this Orndorff turn on Hogan for three months, and might not have the details of the Rey-Juve storyline in his head. The Assistant Booker needs to pull it together and tell the Juniors Booker that this is a bad time. Stretch it for next month, and redesign it so that it doesn't look like the exact same thing as Hogan-Orndorff. Etc. After that, it depends on the type of company you're running: © Tag Team Division I really like to see a vibrant tag division. I know that there are cost reasons why owners prefer 2 guys doing the work they would have to pay 4 to do. But when you watch a good old tag match, they are terrific and *easy* ways to fill space on TV and cards. They also allow other wise difficult to use wrestlers to be combined in a way where the parts are better than the whole. It's a division where wrestlers can be put to grow as workers and in getting over with the crowd. It's also a place where wrestlers can drop down into in a way to work a short storyline that explodes them back out of it, such as Lex-Barry. The thing is... you really need someone who is focused on keeping storylines going for your "six teams", of which 3-4 may be long term while the other 2-3 may be passing through, "thrown together" for storyline reasons, etc. You need a guy running it who, when the Head asks, "What are your long term plans for the Hart Foundation?" in mid-1985, he's got an answer. You need someone who also can take it when the Assistant comes to you and says: "The Head doesn't have a slot for Steve Williams right now, and he's got some issues as a worker as well. But he is high on him long term if he proves he can work and get over. Can you do something with him?" Can come back with: "Well, we've got Ted DiBiase, Mike Rotundo and Terry Gordy who can work their ass off in tags and are the sort of ring generals that Doc might learn from. None of them seems to have much of a program going at the moment. If you can get me one of those guys, I think it would be a good match. Ted can do interviews for both. If it's Rotundo or Gordy, we probably need a manager for them. With Rotundo, we might go the College Wrestler route, so maybe a "coach" or something for them to be the mouth piece. With Gordy, some manager who can get them across as southern badasses." That type of stuff on top of running a good division with storylines and matches. (d) Juniors Booker Similar to the tag division. I'm a fan of juniors wrestling, though size issues have morphed in the past ten years. Whether you need one depends on the size of the wrestlers in your company. But if you have a juniors division in a promotion otherwise dominated by heavyweights, someone needs to look out for them. (e) Developmental Head Booker (f) Developmental Assistant Booker There really isn't a reason for a company pulling in $400M to do a better job of this. Do these guys have to be "in the room" every week? No. But you want your Bookers up above to be aware of what they're doing, even in the sense of being made aware. You want communication there: "Billy Kidman is pretty close to ready to come up and join the Junior Division..." Etc. I wouldn't want to lay that entire developmental into one person's hands since they may just lose their minds. I also would have a decent sized roster there, so beyond the "trainer" gigs, I do think it's a task of two people working wither them and planning out the shows they'll be doing. (g) Head Road Agent I'd actually want my shows to be in line with my TV product, rather than the nonsense where people go out on the road and don't sell injuries. I'd also want my head person on the road to be able to work with the wrestlers on what's working at the house shows, and what's not. I *don't* want five different Agents telling them what to do. I want a single, clearly identified person to be in charge of the "show" side. Other agents and/or lackies can handle the mundane bullshit and keeping people out of trouble. This guy I'd actually want "in the room" so he knows where the promotion is headed. If on TV we're going to be having a wrestler work subtle heel for an upcoming turn, I want him to know about it and make sure the wrestler is working on it on the road and report back to us whether it's working or not. (h) two "writers" and/or "coaches" on the mic side I hate to say it, but things in wrestling could be written better. Wrestlers can learn better lines. Not everyone is a Foley. Some are Rock's who have immense natural potential on the mic, but need help. This is an aspect where people need help, both in what they're good at, and in understanding what they can't do. More than that, if you take a WWE Storyline With Potential like Jericho-Trish, you quickly realize that bookers need help too. It wasn't too complex of a storyline. There were a lot of different things they could have played off to stretch the storyline out, tie into prior and existing storylines of each, and have an solid payoff in the end. Among the many problems the WWE had with it is that they can't do "falling for each other" if their life depended on it. Look... I tend to visualize an ideal promotion as half All Japan and half New Japan in their primes. But I don't have my head buried so far up my ass that if I worked in the WWE in the "ideal" circumstances that I wouldn't try to figure out a what of using sex, fucking, love and jealousy better than the amatuer hour of the WWE and even ECW under Heyman. Getting writers who could flesh out Jericho-Trish is something I'd need. Getting writers who could flesh out the aPa and why I'm tossing Jacki (the one who managed Harlem Heat and could kick ass) with them is something I'd want if I'm planning on doing anything with the aPa. Two writers/coaches for a crew of 40+ "actors" really isn't much. Working with that number of other members in "creative". Is this a large "crew"? Sure. But you're talking about a $400M company with a slew of "talent" under contract both in the bigs and in developmental. It's 4+ hours of TV a week, a 3 hour PPV a month, constantly adjusting talent and storylines to keep both fresh. I've got a big picture long term plans that I want to headline the Mania Dome with Misawa vs. Kawada and give Kobashi his first win over Hansen in the semifinal, and how I want to get them there over the next six months of television. But to be honest, I can't quite figure out what to do with the Midnights and the Rock 'n' Roll now that their feud has played out. Jimbo - Tag Division is yours, figure some shit out. And since Arn & Tully are being phased out of the singles picture, what don't you do something with them. Yamada - you've had all the matches possible with Sammy, Pegasus and Black Tiger. On the other hand, those guys Ohtani and Kanemoto are chomping at the bits. Can you mix it up? What? You want to work with some of those indy guys too? Alright... write something up on your ideas, run a draft by Hiroshi, then give me a power point on it in two weeks. Now let's figure out if any of that talent in OVW is going to be ready to use after Mania Dome. Heyman... you got the floor... Yadder, Yadder. If you're a pissant promotion like ROH, I can see getting by with Gabe and a lackey or two. But like I say, $400M company with hundreds of hours of product on the to produce, along with hundreds of hours to produce at house shows. I'd want a team that can focus on having that product humming from top to bottom, with eyes on where to go several steps down the road. John

I don't know what to make of his longevity. I think in wrestling we've seen plenty of wrestlers who were on top for a long time and *weren't* great workers. Hogan is an example. Undertaker another. I'm not saying those two were/are horrid workers. Just that I don't think anyone is going to confuse them with the level worker that Jumbo Tsuruta is. John

We disagree. If I had a Yamada running my junior division, I'd want him in the room. If I had a Cornette running my tag division, I'd want him in the room. If I had an announcer with the depth of knowledge of Tenay, I'd want him in the room. Numbers aren't a problem. The quality of people, from top down, is the problem. The environment is a problem as well. John

I'm guessing you don't watch CSI very much. I happen to watch it all the time, including repeats far too often (which seems to eat into wrestling watching time). CSI doesn't have 60 straight minutes of dialogue. It doesn't even have a half hour of it. It actually tends to be, in its own way, as "action based" and stylized as a Miami Vice with dialogue often pushed down. I selected CSI as an example of that rather than a sitcom, which tend to be very dialouge based as slapstick has gone by the wayside over the years. CSI attempts to strike a balance between "dialogue" and "visual action". I frankly think it does a pretty decent job of it, which I why find it watchable. I disagree for a number of reasons: (a) there are *more* weekly wrestling shows in a "season" of wrestling than in season of a TV series: 52 vs. 24 ( on average, there are more hours in a weekly wrestling series than in a weekly TV series: 2 hours for SmackDown and Raw vs. 1 hour for a drama, and 1 hour for TNA vs. 30 minutes for a sitcom © wrestling has a far deeper roster of characters even than an "ensalmble" cast drama. Count the number of people on Raw (not just wrestlers, but backstage non-wrestling characters, and also announcers like Ross and Lawler who have "characters" that are part of the show) and then compare it with CSI. I'll be generous and allow in the "countinuing chararcaters" who don't get opening credits like each of the semi-regular cops, lab assistants and the second guy in the morgue. It still isn't close. One of the problems with "pro wrestling writing" is that all of those characters often don't have anything focused to do. Contrast this with the 1986 Great American Bash where up and down the cards were had wrestlers who had something to do. Many of them had multi-layered storylines. The MX were feuding with both the R'n'R and also the "James Boys", with Corny's side feud with Baby Doll. The R'n'R were feuding with the MX and the Andersons, with a side storyline opposite Flair. And on and on. It's one reason some of us are kind of fond of that period. Heck, even Boggie Woggie had a focused feud with Paul Jones' Army. It sucked, but when it came on the card, you knew what it was all about because TV had focused enough attention to it. These days, some have storylines, some don't, some have shitty storylines, some have passable ones, and frankly it's all in a blender where you don't really care about any of the storylines. I think you're looking too narrowly into what "writers" should be doing. Frankly, I think the WWF is as well, which is their loss. WWF "scripts" suck. We all admit it. Why then would we use them as an example of another other than what sucks? The script to Jaws 3-D sucked. I don't think anyone would cite it as an example of good hollywood movie script writing. No, I don't use the CSI analogy to mean that every last move be scripted out, nor every word be scripted out. I don't think you need that level of detail to require multiple people on the creative ("writing" for lack of a better work) side. Keichi Yamada in a sense handled the "writing" of the juniors division in New Japan in the early and mid-90s (and far beyond that). He didn't to it all on his own, and he couldn't simply write a Cage of Death Match into a New Japan card-script, but it was largely his baby. 2-3 matches a night on the card. One "writer". At some point, Hase took some responsibility for simple "writing" of other aspects of the cards. The Big Picture wasn't his, but he was free to pitch ideas about and for it. Another "writer". The "Head Writer" was Choshu. The Big Picture was his. But he listed to others, entrusted others with areas of responsibility, and knew that things would get done. That's not even touching on guys like Masa Saitoh, Masa Chono, Black Cat and others who had roles behind the scenes. New Japan's Junior's division didn't have anywhere close to the "script" of anything on Raw or Smackdown. Other than things tended to make sense. That's part of what I'm talking about when I say that a number of "writers" along the lines of those in a TV series isn't unreasonable. The best fantasy booking that I've seen online was more than one person and was a team effort. One person tends to get lost in the punchline of their own shit, and what pops them. A strong front office has others involved in it, both pitching fresh ideas, fresh talent, and also in being willing and able to tell the Head Man when his shit is off the mark. Admittedly, Pro Wrestling doesn't have any of these that work anymore. That doesn't mean that it hasn't in the past, and wouldn't now. In fact, given the amount of TV time today and how it's different from Old TV (the old Squash matches and simple interviews), I think more than 1 Head Booker and 1 Assistant Booker is needed. Of course. And other than Vince, Steph and Trip (and their pals getting over within the system), no one thinks the system currently works *on almost any level*. I use the terms "writers" as the folks who come up with the storylines, block out the matches and non-matches on TV, the house shows and the PPVs. To me, the Booker is part of that equation as the Head. I tend to find the current form of Road Agents to be a waste. I actually would pull the creative side of their task into the creative process along with booking and writing. I also would pull in the aspect of going over what in the hell is going on in the matches into that process as well. I don't want three matches on the undercard doing ref bumps when the main event has a ref bump as the key aspect. WWE and TNA "creative" are completely fucked up. Again, I'm not using them as examples of what works, anymore than saying that because they don't work it's proof that a creative staff of 4-5 people can't work. I'll give you an example. The WWF has at times pulled in Soap Writers into their Creative Staff. It hasn't worked. I don't see that as "proof" that a Soap Writer on a Wrestling Creative Staff is doomed to fail, or that you could get nothing positive out of that person. It's nothing more than proof to me that WWF Creative is fucked up beyond belief, which is something that we all know to be the truth. I do believe that there *are* things that a weekly storyline based wrestling product could learn from someone who is both a decent Soap Writer and also a decent wrestling fan. Soaps are the closest thing to pro wrestling when it comes to juggling broad numbers of characters, storylines and also producing a mass of content. Five hours of TV a week, week after week, year after year. Much like wrestling, there are some "basics" that work, and you see them getting repeated all the freaking time. Much like wrestling, you've got to mix up storylines throughout the show to appeal to different viewers. Like wrestling you've got to be willing to adjust to your viewers telling you something about a character you didn't see, and change plans on the fly - i.e. heels becoming faces. But because they have five hours a week, 52 weeks a year, a number of "episodes" and storylines that put wrestling to shame, they can teach wrestling things about blocking out storylines, planning ahead, hell... even writing corny lines that fit within the context of your dim witted shows and fans. Now the WWF is too fucked up on the creative side because of Vince, Steph and Trip to take advantage of things like that. But it doesn't mean that a *good* wrestling promotion couldn't. Or that a potential booker couldn't learn something by being sent to study a Soap creative process for six-months of more. Just the same as folks on the Production side could (and have) learned things from sports, movies, etc. The WWF produces over 300 hours of first run television. That's not even touching on the hours of house show stuff. Think 2-3 folks could handle the "creative" side of that strikes me as naivie. If Vince, Steph, Trip and Shane dropped dead, and Linda suddenly made me the head of the creative side, there's no way in hell I'd have a group of 2-3 handling all that. I'd want my team, and I'd be willing to both delegate and also listen to them. John

I would disagree with the 1-2 people comment. Let's take TNA and make a hypothetical assumption that it actually was a one hour show that was "good" in telling storylines that drew in fans. One hour a week, for 52 full weeks a year. Mix in the monthly PPV's for another 36 hours (3 * 12). 88 hours of "programing". Again, assuming it's all "good" on some level. CSI is "good" on some level. As in it draws ratings, and has writing that contributes to drawing and holding those fans. CSI does about 24 hours of programing a year, give or take a few espisodes a year. You can go over to IMDB or Episode Guides or to a CSI fansite to count up the number of writers that get "credits" for a year's worth of CSI. It's more than 1-2 people. A heck of a lot more. Smackdown and Raw are two hours each, plus the PPVs, plus the house shows. I don't think a "writing staff" of five or so people for TNA, Smackdown or Raw is over the top. In the entertainment profession, which wrestling *is* a part of, that's not over the top at all. It's pretty small, in fact, given the quantity of programing. The key part of all that is that TNA, Raw and Smackdown _are not_ "good". They're pretty much shit. I'm not sold that Raw and Smackdown are shit because of the primary, non-Steph & Trip "writers". I'm not saying they're any good, but that we don't know. As Dave has repeated for the last several years, the WWE is currently written to entertain Vince. I think Dave overplays that a bit, since it's also written to please Trip and Steph, and probably a few other lesser "powers" within the company. But we need to admit that those objectives put monsterous limitations on the job of the writers and the quality of the show. TNA has been the same thing over the years. It's been a jerk off for a number of people, such as being Jeffey's personal kiddie pool for years. You could write the most brillant shit in the history of wrestling, and if it didn't fly with Jeffey, you were fucked. Granted, I don't think the WWF writers have been all that good. I also think that what is considered "good wrestling writing" in a lot of circles really is dogshit writing relative to say daytime soaps. I'm not saying that to put over daytime soaps, but instead for a point. Daytime soap writing is considered one of the underbellies of entertainment writing. *It* is thought to be dogshit. Even guys like Gabe and Heyman who get praised would be laughed at by *bad* TV writers. Wrestling writing could be so much better with even "average" writing. But it's never going to happen. John

As NWA Champ, he appeared to wrestle mainly as a heel. Depends on the opponent. Against Buddy, he's a pretty mediocre babyface. Against Gagne, he's a rough house, bumping, stooging heel. Against Schmidt, it's a bit like two rough house guys in there, though Schmidt is the rougher. Depends on the opponent. In one of the matches of Lou that I've seen, play-by-play man Russ Davis called Lou the mosted hated man in wrestling. Now Russ is a really shitty announcer, but he's not likely to say that about someone who is consistently a babyface. The other thing that comes out - Lou works better as a heel than as a face. Lou isn't a very good babyface against Buddy. John

The problem in them isn't that Lou is "carrying 100% of them". He ain't. Actually, Schmidt was an excellent worker. Yohe has called him the Stan Hansen of the era, and that it pretty damn accurate. The Schmidt match is one of Lou's better matches from the era that's on tape, and it's largely due to Schmidt. Bronko was nearing the end, but he could still work the mat if Lou was any kind of a matworker. Lou really wasn't. Lou was working with Buddy all the time when the match took place. There really wasn't anything in the match done to make Buddy look bad. Instead the obvious stood out - Lou didn't work babyface champion very well, so his end of the match was flat. If one took Verne Gagne from his performance again Lou and slapped it with Buddy from his performance against Lou, you'd have a better match than either of the two again Lou. Lou's performance against Gagne was fine, if narrow. He was in his comfort zone of being a rough housing heel champ. His performance against Buddy was more akward. Buddy, Gagne, Schmidt and Palmer could go. If you've seen Gagne vs. Billy Goelz, Gange could *really* fucking go in the ring, while the Schmidt vs. Bob Orton showed the same thing out of Hans. My recollection is that Silverstein had a rep of being able to work as well. I don't recall on Rice. Bronko was aging, but he knew what to do in the ring on the mat, as can be seen in the clips against Londos. Lou didn't seem very interested in working a match. If Lou was the best ever, he'd bring a variety of decent holds to the table against Verne and Buddy to fill 60 minutes of time, and work those holds in an interesting manner. He doesn't. It's not like basic holds didn't exist then, nor the basics in working them didn't exist. They did. It's not just that we can take a look over at Gagne vs. Billy Goelz or Orton vs. Hans to see them being worked. He can look at clips back in the 30s and see Londos and Bronko working holds in a more advanced fashion than Lou. In all honesty from one who's seen the matches - Londos and Bronko show more advanced work in the 8-10 minutes of clips that exist from their match than Lou showed in the entire 60 minutes against Buddy and Verne. Not to be misunderstood - I think Lou was a good worker. I just think history is pretty misinformed about how he worked as Champion. He wasn't a master on the mat, even when in there with guys who could go on the mat. He was a pretty standard NWA Heel Champion. Take a little Flair, take a little Harley and there you go. I'm not entirely sold that he was any better in the role than Flair or Harley. And while being mentioned in the company of those two seems like high praise, Lou would have a fit over it. That's not how he saw himself. And I also think that in the context of their times, Harley and Flair probably were better. John

There is a good deal more of Lou available, and when you watch it, you'll get a feel that he's *not* the greatest worker of all time: 3/31/50 Chicago International Amphitheater Lou Thesz (NWA) { 19'40" (2-1 Falls) } Cyclone Anaya Fall #1 Thesz ( 8'55" Thesz Press Pinfall ) Anaya Fall #2 Anaya ( 5'19" Cobra Twist Submission ) Thesz Fall #3 Thesz ( 5'26" Half Boston Crab Submission ) Anaya 01/26/51 Lou Thesz vs. Buddy Rogers (60:00) 04/51 Chicago Lou Thesz (NWA) vs. Ruffy Silverstein Fall #1: Thesz ( 10'02" Dropkick Pinfall ) Ruffy Only 1st fall shown 10/5/51 Chicago International Amphitheater Lou Thesz (NWA) { 20'45" (2-1 Falls) } Bronko Nagurski Fall #1 Thesz ( 10'44" Thesz Press Pinfall ) Bronko Fall #2 Bronko ( 3'46" Shoulder Block Pinfall ) Thesz Fall #3 Thesz ( 6'15" Dropkick Pinfall ) Bronko 10/51 Chicago Lou Thesz (NWA) ( 13'44" (2-1 Falls) ) Walter Palmer Fall #1: Thesz ( 4'08" Thesz Press Pinfall ) Palmer Fall #2: Palmer ( 3'56" Bodyslam Pinfall ) Thesz Fall #3: Thesz ( 5'40" C.O.R. ) Palmer 02/53 Chicago Lou Thesz (NWA) ( 8'48" (2-1 Falls) ) Mighty Atlas Fall #1: Thesz ( 4'54" Dropkick/Bodypress Pinfall ) Atlas Fall #2: Atlas ( 2'47" Full Nelson Submission ) Thesz Fall #3: Thesz ( 1'07" Pinfall ) Atlas 08/14/54 Hollywood Legion Stadium Lou Thesz (NWA) ( 16'26" (2-0 Falls) ) Tom Rice Fall #1: Thesz ( 11'44" Dropkick Pinfall ) Rice Fall #2: Thesz ( 4'42" Airplane Spin Pinfall ) Rice 02/26/55 Chicago International Amphitheater Lou Thesz (NWA) ( 19'36" (2-0 Falls) ) Don Leo Jonathan Fall #1: Thesz ( 15'58" Dropkick Pinfall ) Jonathan Fall #2: Thesz ( 3'38" Backdrop Pinfall ) Jonathan 07/55 Chicago International Amphitheater Lou Thesz (NWA) ( 14'57" (2-1 Falls) ) Hans Schmidt Fall #1: Thesz ( 9'27" Thesz Press Pinfall ) Hans Fall #2: Hans ( 5'29" Backdrop Pinfall ) Thesz Fall #3: Thesz ( 1'01" Pinfall ) Hans 08/16/57 Chicago International Amphitheater Edouard Carpentier (NWA) { 21'32" of a time limit draw shown } Lou Thesz Fall #1 Not Shown Fall #2 Thesz ( 11'59" Backdrop Pinfall ) Carpentier - They show the finish a second time in slow-MO on this DVD. Fall #3 ( 9'33" Time Limit Expired ) Not officially available: 01/25/52 Lou Thesz vs. Verne Gagne While Lou comes across "okay" in them, what he's strong at is NWA World Champion Style Work - i.e. bumping, stooging, rough housing, stalling, shortcutting, etc. His matwork is pedestrian at best, especially when you see others in the 50s working really great matwork stuff (I've cited a few in the last two King of Chicken threads on tOA). Lou is a good worker, and it's a revelation to find him closer to working Flair-Race style than Lou himself would claim. But the work itself rarely is mind numbing. It's rare that Lou pulls anything out that's as much of a revelation as say the Bronko vs. Londos clips, or the 08/23/53 Hans Schmidt vs. Bob Orton Sr. and 05/11/51 Verne Gagne vs. Billy Goelz matches form the last KOC, or even the Destroyer-Baba match from the other thread. The revelations with Lou are (a) the lack of and disinterest in good matwork and ( his NWA Champ style. John

BTW, Loss - when you watch the Destroyer vs. Rikidozan match, make sure you get the *full* version of it. The version that is circulating with the Toyonobori match is edited, and not in a way that makes Dick's work look very good. Lynch had the full version years ago on one of his boots when it aired on one of the All Japan Specials. John

I agree - this does showcase Dick in his most natural role as a heel. Rather than the Rikidozan or Toyonobori or Inoki matches, it's one where he has an opponent that lets him really show his best. I tend to think this is a great "first" match for people to watch of Dick, because the viewer can then take what they learned here and apply it to other matches: * against Rikidozan he has to stooge and stall around more, which makes Riki look like a God * against Toyonobori, he's in there with a pretty lmited worker and it's almost like working with a broom * against Inoki, surprisingly Inoki isn't all *that* yet, so Dick again has to lead I also think that watching it first ends up reflecting better on Baba as well. Here is Baba's predecessor, then the man who failed on top, then the man who became Baba's rival all head-up against the Destroyer. Dick is in his *prime* against all of them - it's before he got older and slowed down. And one can really make the comp on who can do what at that point in their careers. One can also see who works in a way that allows Dick to bring out the breadth of his working ability, and which ones force him to narrow his game to what they can hang with him on. It's a bit like watching Benoit in there with Eddy, Liger, Ohtani... and then watching him in there with DDP and Raven and having to slow himself down to 33 RPM so they could keep up. I wish that more of the JWP stuff could come out. There are so many dream matches out there: Baba vs. Thesz Baba & Yoshimura vs. Snyder & Pedro Morales Baba & Inoki vs. Bruno & Stevens Baba & Inoki vs. Snyder & Hodge (four title matches in one series: one a time limit draw, two being title changes) Baba vs. Snyder Baba-Blassie Baba & Inoki vs. Destroyer & Black Gordman Baba & Inoki vs. Destroyer & Buddy Austin Baba & Inoki vs. Dory Jr. & Hodge (time limit draw at Kuramae Sumo Hall) Baba vs. Dory Jr. (time limit draw the night *after* the Inoki-Dory) Baba vs. Dory Jr. (week before the second Dory-Inoki) Baba & Inoki vs. Dory Jr. & Terry (several) Baba & Inoki vs. Kiniski & Johnny Valentine (27:50, 8:55, 9:20) Yoshimura & Inoki vs. Valentine & Race (two All Asian matches on same series) Baba & Inoki vs. Mascaras & Spiros Arion Baba vs. Young Terry Funk And on and on. Just loads of stuff that could be (at best) great or (at worst) enlightening. The thing is... no one seems to have a clue of just how much stuff is in the can in N-TV when it comes to JWP material. John

While I give Dick a lot of credit for the greatness of the 03/05/69 match, I think it's equally enlightening on just how good Baba was. He's on the same page with Beyers on just about everything they do. This isn't Volk Han putting an opponent in a "cool hold", playing around with it while the opponent has no option on how to get out, and then finally having to let it go or use an awkward transition. When Beyers put on a hold, Baba knows what to do with it. When Baba puts on a hold, Beyers knows where to go. It's also not a matter of just slapping on a hold and resting in it. They work really cool shit in it. Baba puts a ground crucifix on Beyers. Beyers tries to stand up out of it, which risks Baba's shoulders going to the mat in a pinning position. Baba yanks him back down, then starts raining guilotine legdrops on the back of Destroyer's head and neck, which Dick sells the mother out of. It's a naturalistic sequence, but cool as all hell. In the Dory-Brisco 60 minute draw in Japan, is there a *single* hold that's worked in a way that's either as smart or cool as that? To make my point clearer: That's GIANT FUCKING BABA applying that ground crucifix (cool fucking hold) and raining those guilotine legdrops down on the back of Destroyer's head (unfucking believable cool move) while retaining the hold. Fuck the "weak" chops. Fuck the fact that he was akward because of the gigantism playing havoc with his body. Baba was one smart son of a gun in the ring, and was a game MoFo. He was "1995-97 Good Taue", except that he was vastly smarter in the ring, more game, and didn't wait until he was 34 to become a good worker. So yes, Destroyer is one of the greatest workers who ever lived and the 03/05/69 match shows him in prime form. He's a freaking maestro. But Giant Baba could flat out go in ring. He is the Best Taue That Ever Lived... as in Taue, in the context of his time, wasn't any better than Baba was. John

Vince's version of the truth has always been funny. It wasn't just the northeast where Vince locked up arenas. He started locking many of them up as he expanded. Crockett didn't run in the Rosemont Horizon in Chicago. He ran at UIC Pavillion. That was the case in many cities, with Crockett getting pushed to smaller, older venues. Vince was extremely smart in this. He also expanded with syndication and shows just about everywhere. If he'd run into a problem like he did in promoting in Crockett Country or Von Erich Land, he rethink it. But he also gobbled up "dead territories" left and right. The old Los Angeles territory. What had been the Northern California territory. Detriot. Cleveland. Indy. Lots of other decent sized cities. That in addition to going to war with the AWA (which probably was his #1 target as a territory because of Chicago), St. Louis, Flordia, etc. There was the thread on Classics about Hogan and Austin as draws. A side tangent of it was about Austin going into areas where the WWF had "never draw" and drawing big there. I tried to walk through a bit of what Vince had done with Hogan, that he both reinvigorated dead territories and also went into opposition towns. Not all were successful. But the number of cities and territories, along with the size of the specific cities and terrotories, was a lot larger than Austin's. It wasn't intended as a knock on Austin, and I don't think it was read as such. More that what happened during Expansion wasn't getting its due in the thread, by some people who really knew better (or should have if they weren't so busy putting over recent history and smacking Hogan). Anyway... I digress. John

I don't think conversation of 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s wrestling is too hard to find. There are people who want to talk about it and/or watch it, and are interesting in knowing about more good stuff that's out there. Some of them are willing to talking about it in a lot of detail rather than "Bob Orton Jr. Rulz!" It's a matter of whether they have what you are watching and talking about. There's the side issue of whether they want to talk about it. I feel myself over-talked-out on 90s AJPW, either feeling like I'm saying the same thing over and over again during the past decade or just burnt out on the coversation. And of course the side issue of whether you actually want to talk to them about the topic. There was a time when I enjoyed having discussions like the old ones with the Cru. Now it just doesn't feel like anything other than a waste of time bogging down in that type of argument. I have little doubt that many people think the same of talking wrestling with me: "jdw's okay to talk to when he agrees with you, but when he doesn't he's a real asshole to try to have a conversation with." Which is a valid criticism. All of wrestling discussion is like that. The difference between WWF discussion and "old school" discussion is that in the WWF you regularly have some fresh meat that wants to talk about it (if it's your thing), and in contrast if the old school match discussion dies up it will be sometime before some freshness pops up. John

I don't know if Kurt's ego can wait until February to get the win back. He learned from HHH not to wait too long. John

Of course they were going to run it again. Kurt needs his win back. And then he can work with the bookers to phase Joe down and away. John

I think you've mentioned that before. Still, on the occassions that you see something and it catches your fancy, I think I can speak for everyone that it's important to just toss out a comment on it. We all are looking for good matches to watch. John

These are the two available. The first is Baba's win. The second is Baba retaining. 12/02/74: 11:47, 5:39, 3:20 (Kagoshima Prefectural Gym) 12/05/74: 13:53, 3:53, 4:50 (Nippon University Hall, Tokyo) John

Looking at what you just posted for 1975, it looks like you need to watch Dory vs. Horst. If you rate Dory vs. Abby and Jumbo vs. Horst that highly, I think you might have your new Match of the Year. It smokes them them, especially the Jumbo vs. Horst (since Dory-Abby isn't a direct comp). I actually like it better than the Baba-Race, but don't let that influence you. Just watch it in comp to those two other matches. Best Dory matches I've ever seen. John

Someone could have fun going though this as a "review" or "discussion" project: Boston Idols Japan OLD History Who knows... it might inspire Frank to do the 1977-79 discs for this set. It does touch on a lot of stuff that you mention as "I need to see". A lot of stuff is Usual Suspects matches that are up on the web from time to time. But this collects them nicely in one place. Barnett of course has it. I suspect Will and others do. John