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Everything posted by jdw

  1. This really should be watched in the context of the entire G1, which is all available now. One would then get the sense of Choshu being 0-2 coming in, and Hash with 3 points while Chono already in the clubhouse with 5 points. There's no way Choshu is going 0-3 in the G1, so Chono will face the winner of Vader-Mutoh (which followed this on the card) in the Final. I mean... there can't be a Block playoff rematch between Hash and Chono... right? Short largely two movement match: * Choshu jumps Hash at the gun with a wicked strike and kicks the shit out of Hash * Hash hits a tremendous transition to turn things and then kicks the shit out of Choshu It's theatrical, it's stiff, is simple, they sell their asses off for each other, Choshu is an old pro at theatrical spectacles and Hash is coming into his own as the future master. The entire G1 is available now. With the exception of the Chono-Hash draw and the Final, none of the matches go 15+ minutes, and half of them don't go past 11 minutes. It doesn't take a lot of time to get through, and it's worth investing time in watching it. Six of the 13 matches made the Yearbook. I'd add this one as also Yearbook worthy, especially given the length. The rest, though, are worth watching as well even if they don't blow you away.
  2. jdw

    Other 1994 worth watching

    These would be the Carny matches and their sources that are also worth watching: 03/19/94 Korakuen Hall, Tokyo (03/20/94 NTV) League: Misawa vs Akiyama (13:57) 03/24/94 Hiratsuke (03/27/94 NTV) League: Hansen vs Kawada (19:38) 04/01/94 Okayama (Carnival Commercial) League: Kawada vs Akiyama (11:25) 04/10/94 Sendai (Carnival Commercial) League: Williams vs Akiyama (12:26) Especially the Kawada-Akiyama and Williams-Akiyama as a contrast to the Kobashi-Akiyama that's on the set. I think these two are quite a bit more compelling and tighter all around matches for Jun than the Kobashi, but it's worth others seeing them. I feel a bit for Doc that his isn't on there: lots of matches on the set for Kobashi to shine, but Doc-Akiyama might be the best example of how great of a worker Doc was in 1994 when not in with the Four Corners. John
  3. The narrative of Manchester United gunning for a 19th League Title to pass Liverpool wasn't made by the Media. It was made by Fact, by comments between players of the two teams, and by the fans of two teams. The Media just followed the obvious storyline. Little different from United's question for the Champions Cup / Champions League in the 90s. None of us fans needed the Media to tells us about that one. We lived it. There are countless other ones. You're being silly here. They are regularly about Good and Evil. Fans of teams think their rivals are evil. The whole EPL hated Chelsea and Man City "buying titles" and thought it was an evil perversion of their game, including United fans who obtusely ignored their own team outspending everyone else in the 90s and early 00s until Petro Billionaires bought Chelsea and then City. Fans other than United Fans (and his national team fans) thought Roy Keane was an evil player. We tended to think he was a nutter, but he was Our Nutter. Don't ever try to tell Barca and Madrid fans that El Clasico isn't a passion play of Good vs Evil, or that the other side isn't Evil. They would laugh in your face. Again, this is as silly as it was all those years ago where I seem to recall you admitted eventually that you were stone cold wrong due Henry's return. Every Home Team is the Face to their Fans just like Jerry Lawler and Kerry Von Erich were to their Fans. In turn, Alabama coming to town is every much the hated Heel to those Fans just as much as Ric Flair coming to town as the NWA Champ. Well... except that Bama is hated *more* by those fans than Flair. In turn, Face Bama in the friendly confines of Bryant–Denny Stadium are more beloved Faces to their Fans than Hulk Hogan on his best day. This is all obvious stuff to anyone who has passionately followed both Real Sports and Fake Pro Wrestling. Controversial isn't the word you're looking for. Insane. And "is" rather than "isn't". That has nothing to do with silly claims that "There is no moral element in real sports" and "There is no narrative element in real sports". Or to pretend that there aren't Heels and Faces in sports. Seriously, slow down and recall what you felt when this happened: Saying that Real Sports have great storylines, great heels, great faces, narratives, morality plays doesn't mean that wrestling can't have them as well. They are not mutually exclusive, nor does the fact that we can see and enjoy/love them in one mean that we can't see and enjoy/love them in the other. Basketball season is about to start. I have more than a dozen storylines in my head that I'm looking forward to see how the turn out, and have a total knowledge that many more will spring up as they always do in every season. Which is little different than heading into the Rumble and pondering storylines that will playout from there to Mania.
  4. Good lord... I forgot there once was a thread where someone made the claimed that "There is no moral element in real sports" and "There is no narrative element in real sports".
  5. jdw

    Why there can never be a universal standard

    So you're basically admitting that your meme about puroresu fans in the 70s laughing is just bullshit. Good to know.
  6. Actually it wasn't all worked out in 1989. Jewett's criticism of the 5/89 match online was in the late 90s. Tabe probably has been talking about his thoughts on the finish for just as long, if not longer. It was rather clear in the discussion that what I was referring to was after 1989 and prior to now. I get that your concept of opinion is that there was only two points: Original Criticism and Whenever Parv First Watched/Read/Listened To It And Formed An Opinion. The later especially if you have a contrary opinion and try to claim originating it, even if the ground has been covered before.
  7. jdw

    Why there can never be a universal standard

    I think this one works the opposite direction. You're the one who referenced laughter in 70s AJPW matches that you didn't understand. You kind of tossed it off as something pretty common. Why don't you give gotnw your best 10 examples, with the match time (from the ring bell) of each. Then gotnw can explain why they're laughing, or be as stumped as you are.
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  9. jdw

    Dave Meltzer stuff

    To be clear, there were a lot of commercials he didn't watch. We didn't see El Super Clasico until renting it at Champions during the 1996 trip. The 5/94 version of the match also was something he didn't see at the time. 1994 Super J Cup? Nah, we were all busting our nuts to get that as soon as it washed up, and Dave had been connections with the tape traders than anyone.
  10. jdw

    Dave Meltzer stuff

    There's a good deal to that, but not always. I seem to recall that Dave at times has talked about old 70s matches that he's watched and been impressed by them. Not a ton like folks here do, but certainly some. I want to say something like Dory-Brisco, and in the back of my head I think he said something positive about some Backlund match/matches, though perhaps putting over the person who "carried" him. He just never got into stuff like AJPW/NJPW Classics like the rest of us did. I think it was due to being knee deep in Raw+SmackDown+Nitro+Thunder+ECW TV along with the monthly PPV of each company, still watching current Japan, etc... along with all the writing and reporting. Just didn't have the time when Classics came along in the late 90s like he would have had in say the 80s. I find the comment on the 1994 Super J Cup odd. This was in the years when Dave *was* watching commercial tapes regularly, especially the Big Ones. He had people sending them to him like Zavisa and others. The 1994 Super J Cup was up there with the Dream Slams as "must have" for him. On a level below that, he would watch things like the AJW Grand Prix commercial tapes, the AJPW Carnival tapes of 1994 & 1995, the Pancrase card tapes. Super J Cup is something I'm certain he watch in 1994 and we talked about at the time, along with the Carny tape. He also watched the 1995 version of the J Cup as well.
  11. I'm still kind of wondering when you're going to cop to screwing up on the Flair-Steamer and Flair-Funk matches? That's beside being confused in thinking Tabe is a newbie who suddenly decided in 2016 that he didn't like the post-match of Flair-Steamer.
  12. As far as different takes, Tabe has been around forever. He can confirm that his thoughts on the WrestleWar post match aren't new. They're probably as old as Jewett being one of the first to say the WrestleWar match itself was wildly overrated, though my recollection is that Frank liked the post match for the reasons Tabe didn't.
  13. Different match. Tabe is talking about WrestleWar, which was Flair-Steamer + Flair-Funk Post Match Pile Driver: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/35447-how-important-is-the-finish-in-giving-a-match-five-stars/?p=5767224 I was talking about the Flair-Funk at the Bash, which had the Flair & Sting vs Funk & Muta + Flair Juice & Muta Spay Mic Spot as the post match. While that match was (predictably) referenced in the thread, it's not the one Tabe did the *****/* comment about.
  14. It's been expanded for decades. Hence the Flair vs Funk Bash match reference, which was on we always use to talk about when the subject came up: the post match was frankly better than the match and a big reason (mentioned or not mentioned) that some folks rated it really high.
  15. On the originally question... hard to know. I've tended to use the Windham vs Pillman at SuperBrawl as an example of a terrific short match. That went 6:08. Perfect? Great? I don't know... never was super comfy with applying it to matches that short, or applying "MOTYC" to it. But it was awfully good. The Fans vs Midnights from Clash 1 was 10:15. That's a terrific match. I think when you block out what they do, how they work a "match" into what's really a short amount of time for them, and by "match" I'm not meaning just tossing a ton of shit into it. Sure, there's a ton of shit tossed into it, but they also work a very good FIP section in there. It's like a truncated version of their longer matches, with extra shit tossed on, and some of that shit is GREAT FUCKING SHIT~! like the Table. It's really terrific for what it is. Great? Perhaps. MOTYC? It finished well in that race. Perfect? Pretty much for what they needed to do and were trying to do. So it's a hard question. Mostly a personal one on what the viewer likes.
  16. Their two matches in 1979 were under 20: http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=102403 http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=41366 They had a lot of other entrances, introductions, pre-match, post-match and what not, so the Youtube video count might have been up around 30. Always hard on what to count and what not to count. We like to give credit for stuff like the Flair & Sting vs Funk & Muta brawl after the Bash match, and frankly for Flair's great blood & Muta-spay covered speach as well. But Hogan gets no credit for the Posing Routine, or for kicking the shit out of the heel and heel manager after matches. The haircut or mask removal after a lucha match gets credit, but do we give credit to the post-match of El Clasico? I don't have a great answer to that. It does seem fair to give Hogan credit for the Posing Routine's ability to fire up and satisfy the crowd (as in monster fucking pop) if we give it to others. We probably can do that while also admitting that we personally don't give two shits for the Posing Routine and it doesn't work for us.
  17. It is amazing that this turned up and in the shape that it's in. It's was one of those iconic matches for a lot of us who checked out the wrestling mags in the 80s before moving onto sheets / online - when you thought of Blood Feuds and Epic Matches, the pictures made you think this was one of the must see matches. Really look forward to seeing it.
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  19. jdw

    Holy Grails

    Hundreds of them. The 05/19/63 Destroyer vs Rikidozan (Riki jobs in the 3rd fall to the figure four) and 05/24/63 Destroyer vs Rikidozan (DKO bloodbath that drew the insane "70 million" viewership). I'm not certain if the first one was on TV. Others: 02/28/66 NWA Int'l Title: Giant Baba vs Lou Thesz (21:13, 2:45, 0:51) Lou had just dropped the NWA Title and came over to put over Baba shortly after Baba won the Int'l title. Did it clean with a backdrop suplex. I've talked about the Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki vs Wilbur Snyder & Danny Hodge series in 1969: http://www.puroresu.com/jwa/results/jwa196901newyear.html 12/27/68 Tokyo - Kuramae Kokugikan (Friday) (First show of the new year) Michiaki Yoshimura (15min limit draw) Danny Hodge Antonio Inoki (15min limit draw) Wilbur Snyder Giant Baba (5:50 pin) Tom Jones 01/03/69 Tokyo - Kuramae Kokugikan (Friday) (First show of the new year) NWA Int'l Tag Title: Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki (1-1) Danny Hodge & Wilbur Snyder 1: Snyder (15:46 pin) Baba 2: Baba (17:53 pin) Snyder 3: (60min time limit) 01/09/69 Hiroshima - Pref. Gym (Thursday) NWA Int'l Tag Title: Danny Hodge & Wilbur Snyder def Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki (title change) 1: Hodge (18:08 pin) Inoki 2: Inoki (4:34 abdominal stretch) Hodge 3: Snyder (3:45 pin) Baba 01/11/69 Osaka - Pref. Gym (Saturday) Antonio Inoki DCOR Danny Hodge (14:25) NWA Int'l Title: Giant Baba (2-1) Wilbur Snyder 1: Baba (16:31 DQ) 2: Snyder (3:27 pin) 3: Baba (3:27 pin) 01/31/69 Tokyo - Korakuen Hall (Friday) Wilbur Snyder (2-1) Antonio Inoki 1: Snyder (11:03 pin) 2: Inoki (1:40 abdominal stretch) 3: Snyder (9:50 DQ) 02/04/69 Sapporo - Nakajima Sports Center (Tuesday) NWA Int'l Tag Title: Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki (2-1) Danny Hodge & Wilbur Snyder (title change) 1: Baba & Inoki (23:59 DQ) 2: Snyder (1:03 pin) Baba 3: Baba (2:59 abdominal stretch) Snyder 02/11/69 Akita - Pref. Gym (Tuesday) (final card of the Series) NWA Int'l Tag Title: Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki* (2-1) Danny Hodge & Wilbur Snyder 1: Snyder (21:32 pin) Inoki 2: Inoki (3:25 COR) Snyder 3: Inoki (3:42 octopus hold) Snyder I would think that a good deal of that was taped and/or live. It would be the best shot of seeing Snyder and Hodge as workers, especially if there were several of them to comp. Some nice, long matches there and something they thought was decent enough to run so often. I don't recall any tag match up for the belts getting worked over like that in the 60s.
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