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jdw

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  1. The narrative of Manchester United gunning for a 19th League Title to pass Liverpool wasn't made by the Media. It was made by Fact, by comments between players of the two teams, and by the fans of two teams. The Media just followed the obvious storyline. Little different from United's question for the Champions Cup / Champions League in the 90s. None of us fans needed the Media to tells us about that one. We lived it. There are countless other ones. You're being silly here. They are regularly about Good and Evil. Fans of teams think their rivals are evil. The whole EPL hated Chelsea and Man City "buying titles" and thought it was an evil perversion of their game, including United fans who obtusely ignored their own team outspending everyone else in the 90s and early 00s until Petro Billionaires bought Chelsea and then City. Fans other than United Fans (and his national team fans) thought Roy Keane was an evil player. We tended to think he was a nutter, but he was Our Nutter. Don't ever try to tell Barca and Madrid fans that El Clasico isn't a passion play of Good vs Evil, or that the other side isn't Evil. They would laugh in your face. Again, this is as silly as it was all those years ago where I seem to recall you admitted eventually that you were stone cold wrong due Henry's return. Every Home Team is the Face to their Fans just like Jerry Lawler and Kerry Von Erich were to their Fans. In turn, Alabama coming to town is every much the hated Heel to those Fans just as much as Ric Flair coming to town as the NWA Champ. Well... except that Bama is hated *more* by those fans than Flair. In turn, Face Bama in the friendly confines of Bryant–Denny Stadium are more beloved Faces to their Fans than Hulk Hogan on his best day. This is all obvious stuff to anyone who has passionately followed both Real Sports and Fake Pro Wrestling. Controversial isn't the word you're looking for. Insane. And "is" rather than "isn't". That has nothing to do with silly claims that "There is no moral element in real sports" and "There is no narrative element in real sports". Or to pretend that there aren't Heels and Faces in sports. Seriously, slow down and recall what you felt when this happened: Saying that Real Sports have great storylines, great heels, great faces, narratives, morality plays doesn't mean that wrestling can't have them as well. They are not mutually exclusive, nor does the fact that we can see and enjoy/love them in one mean that we can't see and enjoy/love them in the other. Basketball season is about to start. I have more than a dozen storylines in my head that I'm looking forward to see how the turn out, and have a total knowledge that many more will spring up as they always do in every season. Which is little different than heading into the Rumble and pondering storylines that will playout from there to Mania.
  2. Good lord... I forgot there once was a thread where someone made the claimed that "There is no moral element in real sports" and "There is no narrative element in real sports".
  3. jdw

    Why there can never be a universal standard

    So you're basically admitting that your meme about puroresu fans in the 70s laughing is just bullshit. Good to know.
  4. Actually it wasn't all worked out in 1989. Jewett's criticism of the 5/89 match online was in the late 90s. Tabe probably has been talking about his thoughts on the finish for just as long, if not longer. It was rather clear in the discussion that what I was referring to was after 1989 and prior to now. I get that your concept of opinion is that there was only two points: Original Criticism and Whenever Parv First Watched/Read/Listened To It And Formed An Opinion. The later especially if you have a contrary opinion and try to claim originating it, even if the ground has been covered before.
  5. jdw

    Why there can never be a universal standard

    I think this one works the opposite direction. You're the one who referenced laughter in 70s AJPW matches that you didn't understand. You kind of tossed it off as something pretty common. Why don't you give gotnw your best 10 examples, with the match time (from the ring bell) of each. Then gotnw can explain why they're laughing, or be as stumped as you are.
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  7. jdw

    Dave Meltzer stuff

    To be clear, there were a lot of commercials he didn't watch. We didn't see El Super Clasico until renting it at Champions during the 1996 trip. The 5/94 version of the match also was something he didn't see at the time. 1994 Super J Cup? Nah, we were all busting our nuts to get that as soon as it washed up, and Dave had been connections with the tape traders than anyone.
  8. jdw

    Dave Meltzer stuff

    There's a good deal to that, but not always. I seem to recall that Dave at times has talked about old 70s matches that he's watched and been impressed by them. Not a ton like folks here do, but certainly some. I want to say something like Dory-Brisco, and in the back of my head I think he said something positive about some Backlund match/matches, though perhaps putting over the person who "carried" him. He just never got into stuff like AJPW/NJPW Classics like the rest of us did. I think it was due to being knee deep in Raw+SmackDown+Nitro+Thunder+ECW TV along with the monthly PPV of each company, still watching current Japan, etc... along with all the writing and reporting. Just didn't have the time when Classics came along in the late 90s like he would have had in say the 80s. I find the comment on the 1994 Super J Cup odd. This was in the years when Dave *was* watching commercial tapes regularly, especially the Big Ones. He had people sending them to him like Zavisa and others. The 1994 Super J Cup was up there with the Dream Slams as "must have" for him. On a level below that, he would watch things like the AJW Grand Prix commercial tapes, the AJPW Carnival tapes of 1994 & 1995, the Pancrase card tapes. Super J Cup is something I'm certain he watch in 1994 and we talked about at the time, along with the Carny tape. He also watched the 1995 version of the J Cup as well.
  9. I'm still kind of wondering when you're going to cop to screwing up on the Flair-Steamer and Flair-Funk matches? That's beside being confused in thinking Tabe is a newbie who suddenly decided in 2016 that he didn't like the post-match of Flair-Steamer.
  10. As far as different takes, Tabe has been around forever. He can confirm that his thoughts on the WrestleWar post match aren't new. They're probably as old as Jewett being one of the first to say the WrestleWar match itself was wildly overrated, though my recollection is that Frank liked the post match for the reasons Tabe didn't.
  11. Different match. Tabe is talking about WrestleWar, which was Flair-Steamer + Flair-Funk Post Match Pile Driver: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/35447-how-important-is-the-finish-in-giving-a-match-five-stars/?p=5767224 I was talking about the Flair-Funk at the Bash, which had the Flair & Sting vs Funk & Muta + Flair Juice & Muta Spay Mic Spot as the post match. While that match was (predictably) referenced in the thread, it's not the one Tabe did the *****/* comment about.
  12. It's been expanded for decades. Hence the Flair vs Funk Bash match reference, which was on we always use to talk about when the subject came up: the post match was frankly better than the match and a big reason (mentioned or not mentioned) that some folks rated it really high.
  13. On the originally question... hard to know. I've tended to use the Windham vs Pillman at SuperBrawl as an example of a terrific short match. That went 6:08. Perfect? Great? I don't know... never was super comfy with applying it to matches that short, or applying "MOTYC" to it. But it was awfully good. The Fans vs Midnights from Clash 1 was 10:15. That's a terrific match. I think when you block out what they do, how they work a "match" into what's really a short amount of time for them, and by "match" I'm not meaning just tossing a ton of shit into it. Sure, there's a ton of shit tossed into it, but they also work a very good FIP section in there. It's like a truncated version of their longer matches, with extra shit tossed on, and some of that shit is GREAT FUCKING SHIT~! like the Table. It's really terrific for what it is. Great? Perhaps. MOTYC? It finished well in that race. Perfect? Pretty much for what they needed to do and were trying to do. So it's a hard question. Mostly a personal one on what the viewer likes.
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