Dylan Waco

Just a correction to what John wrote, ballots weren't public. Lots of people did publicly post there ballots but it wasn't a requirement. We still don't know who left Hogan off their ballot, and probably never will

This is a good question. Backlund is hurt in my eyes by the fact that he was never a star of any note without the WWWF title. He wasn't much of a star before holding the belt. He wasn't really in demand after losing the belt, and in fact had no real value at all to the few promoters who used him. That bothers me. Not enough to completely knock him off my list, because he headlined too many huge shows. But in a comparison to Dory Funk Jr. (who I like much less in the ring for the record), he wasn't the degree of international star, he wasn't a star anywhere near as many places, and he wasn't a star for anywhere near as long. Also Dory was a big draw as champion.

I understand what you are saying, but as someone who has been involved in polls like this for two decades (holy fuck), strategic voting is common and something you have to expect. I think it is silly, and in most cases makes the project in question look bad, but it is something you can 100 percent guarantee will happen. To a degree we all did little things on our ballots that were probably suspect (I gave Luchadores the benefit of the doubt because I knew they weren't likely to appear on as many ballots as other guys with similar resumes from Japan and the U.S. for example), but leaving the top names off is impossible to defend

Make an argument for Bret. My rough draft had over 400 names on it and Bret was one of them. But as I was going through the list pairing it down, guys I had assumed would be locks or have strong chances of making the list starting falling off early. When I look at Bret I see a guy who was the ace of a company doing okay not great. Sometimes things were pretty bad under his watch, but he had some good gates and runs. He was never a massive draw. Never even really a "very good" draw. He had about seven years as a top star in wrestling, but a couple of those years were in free falling WCW, and another chunk of time was on the shelf in 1996. Actually Bret's peak as a star closely coincides with the low point of U.S. based wrestling in the modern era (not his fault, but pretty hard to argue against). In his pre-prime he was in a tag team that I don't rate all that high, and which no one thinks was a draw and was one of a few guys consistently booked on top in Stampede, a promotion that was less successful than the often dismissed Portland. To me the idea that Bret is a "gimme" for a list like this is silly. What on earth did he ever do to be an obvious pick for something like this? I certainly could see him on the list. He's not a bad pick. But an obvious "he has to be on" type of guy? Why? I actually think Bret ended up finishing comically high on the list when you actually look at his career.

The voters were hand picked due to knowledge etc. I wouldn't of said this if any geek could vote. The six that people have left off are six of the biggest draws of all time, so I cannot fathom why they have done this, other than to get attention for themselves / the list. I honestly think they were strategic votes. It's possible someone blanked on someone as Yohe had a strict "once your vote is in that's it" policy and didn't allow for people to correct errors. Still I suspect these were people leaving people off of lists because they feared they would rate higher than they "deserved."

Honestly I think until the last week Ambrose has been exposed as a massive underachiever in singles, and Reigns has clearly been outpacing him as a guy who feels like a big deal and wrestles like a star. Ambrose really made himself look great last night and I still believe he has the highest ceiling, but at best he's catching up to Reigns.

Yohe just posted that Hogan was only left off of one list, so I went ahead and changed the numbers above. Still, whoever left them off their list is crazy

Expanding on Santo a bit, and doing some quick math, if you go by average rank he finished fourth behind Hogan, Thesz and Londos. That is a good result really.

Also I always knew who my top three would be, just not the order of the first two. Santo was always going to be three. My reasoning is basically what you just said Tim, though he was never going to break into the top two because he wasn't a huge star for multiple decades, on multiple continents, like the two guys above him. I ended up going with Londos first for two reasons: 1. He did it first. When all other things are equal I tend to error on the side of the originator. Not that he was the original star in wrestling, but Londos was the original superstar drawing card of that magnitude. 2. Londos held records damn near everywhere he went, and didn't struggle anywhere that I know of. Hogan did struggle for periods of time - albeit in ultimately meaningless ways - during the national expansion. It's a small, small thing in the grand scheme of things, but sometimes a list like this means you end up splitting hairs.

Chigusa was one of my last five off. I hated leaving her off and including Dump, but Dump felt like more of a prototype to me, so I included her. It was one of the picks I was the most conflicted about. I actually had originally had the idea of including Bobby Heenan at 100 and kind of which I had now in hindsight, but oh well. Also if I had known Patera would get totally shut out, I might have given him a vote in the bottom two or three. I don't really think he rises to this level, but there were others who received votes, who weren't near his level. Santo was hurt by being left off of three ballots. His average placement was in the top ten. Honestly I think 11 is almost a miracle for him, as I feared he could fall much farther down.

My rough thoughts. This is cross posted from Classics. The reference to weighted voting is in regards to an early proposal Pat Laprade had made to give more value to first place votes (and other votes in the five or ten as I recall). Things I am happy with in the finished product: Luchadores did better than I thought they would. Not as well as they did on my list and not as well I was I would have liked to see in an ideal world given my own biases and views, but better than I had feared. Eight(by my initial count) making the top 100 is about five more than I had expected. Also glad Rey squeezed in there at the bottom, though I know that he is a guy who could be debated to death. I have no real argument with who made the top fifteen, though I would quibble a bit with the order. Still that is a rock solid group of names at the top of the heap. The list is pretty broad. Lots of wrestlers, styles, eras, periods, et. have representation. A part of me feels bad that no Joshi worker made the final 100, and McManus barely missed out, but I had a vote and did little to help them so it's hard to complain about that. I don't know that I could argue it on merit, but Bockwinkel finishing so high made me smile. Things I am surprised by: I really shouldn't be, but I am surprised Thesz won. I really thought Londos would take it, and when you consider the fact that both guys were on every ballot, but Londos had almost half the first place votes, it amazes me even more. I will say that this is the area where I agreed with my buddy Pat Laprade that weighted voting made sense. I've been a part of other projects ranking wrestlers and matches before and to me the fight for one is always the big struggle. Whoever I reward with that slot is the guy I am making the biggest statement about. I honestly have no problem with Lou winning this, but in my mind Londos and Hogan were going to be one and two in some order on my ballot from the beginning. To me the fact that Londos got nearly half the first place votes, and twice as many as anyone else, is as telling as anything on the list. I am surprised Mick Foley didn't make the list. I could see an argument against him to be sure, but in my mind he was such a huge part, of such a massive period for wrestling, I had assumed he would squeak into the bottom fifteen or so. I don't think it's a grave injustice that he didn't quite make it, I was just a bit surprised by it. I am also surprised Takada didn't make the list. I would have pegged him as a shoe-in. Tillet finishing as high as he did was a surprise of sorts, though Steve sort of hinted at that earlier. Things I am "unhappy" with in the finished product: "Unhappy" isn't really the right word, as I'm hardly angry, but there are some things I just don't get. I really don't understand the argument for Kurt Angle. This has nothing to do with my thoughts on him as a worker, or anything of that sort. I just don't see him as a guy who was all the influential, and his case as a draw is spotty at best. He was never the top guy in a hot promotion. His peak years as a worker and asset to the WWE coincided with a low point in the post-boom era for the company in terms of business. I don't blame him for that, but it's also hard to give him credit for it. He was a part of some shows that did great business in 01, and I loved aspects of his character during his peak, but if he wasn't an Olympic gold medalist would he be anywhere near the finished product? I doubt it. He is the only guy that ended up making the top 100 where I just strongly disagree with his inclusion at all. But every list is bound to have one of those. I don't buy Michaels that high. I didn't vote for him, but I strongly considered it, and have zero problem with him making the top 100. Still I often wonder how much of his current perception is due to WWE marketing him as this super important star and major player. There is no doubt that Michaels is a Hall of Famer, no doubt that he is viable for a list like this, but when I see him above names like Choshu I just have to shake my head. I get that Michaels headlined some huge shows after his comeback, and I give him credit for the Mania matches with Taker. But given his failures as an ace in the 90s, I just can't see him as a top fifty all time guy. Hogan being left off of two ballots is something I can't defend. There were guys I left off of my ballot who I am not as high on as others (Michaels, Brody, HHH all come to mind), but I think pretty much everyone would agree that they weren't even close to Hogan level stars, and all of them were guys I strongly considered (actually HHH was one of the last five I cut). I have to assume that the people who left him off did for strategic reasons, i.e. the fear he would finish first and trying to thwart that by not voting for him. There is no other argument against him I could buy. I will say that in a weird way the end result was to make his stat line look more impressive, as he easily had the best average ranking (basically a 3 and a half if you do the math). Of course this leads to the question of if you had done weighted voting via the method Pat suggested would Hogan have been able to over take Londos, even appearing on fewer ballots? It's an interesting thought experiment if nothing else, maybe Chris Harrington can tell us what the math says.

My own 100 (some of which I would probably already change) 1. Jim Londos 2. Hulk Hogan 3. El Santo 4. Lou Thesz 5. Rikidozan 6. Steve Austin 7. Ed Lewis 8. Buddy Rogers 9. Frank Gotch 10. Andre The Giant 11. Ric Flair 12. Bruno Sammartino 13. Giant Baba 14. Blue Demon 15. Joe Stetcher 16. Antonio Inoki 17. The Rock 18. Perro Aguayo 19. Ray Mendoza 20. Riki Choshu 21. Farmer Burns 22. Verne Gagne 23. Terry Funk 24. William Muldoon 25. George Hackenschmidt 26. Gorgeous George 27. Harley Race 28. Jack Brisco 29. Gene Kiniski 30. Dory Funk Jr. 31. Pat O’Connor 32. Gori Guerrero 33. Mitsaharu Misawa 34. Mil Mascaras 35. The Sheik 36. El Solitario 37. The Black Shadow 38. Bill Longson 39. Nick Bockwinkel 40. Keiji Mutoh 41. Shinya Hashimoto 42. Antonio Rocca 43. Randy Savage 44. Freddie Blassie 45. Jumbo Tsuruta 46. Dick Beyer 47. Rene Guajardo 48. Ray Stevens 49. Tatsumi Fujinami 50. Stan Hansen 51. Negro Casas 52. Canek 53. Tom Jenkins 54. John Cena 55. Mad Dog Vachon 56. Yvon Robert 57. Whipper Watson 58. Gus Sonnenberg 59. Johnny Valentine 60. Genchiro Tenryu 61. Kenta Kobashi 62. Stanislaus Zbyszko 63. Bobo Brazil 64. Hans Schmidt 65. Dusty Rhodes 66. Akira Maeda 67. Tarzan Lopez 68. El Hijo Del Santo 69. Bill Miller 70. Jerry Lawler 71. Jackie Fargo 72. Villano III 73. Mick Foley 74. Evan Lewis 75. Dos Caras 76. The Crusher 77. Toshiaki Kawada 78. Cien Caras 79. Nobuhiko Takada 80. Roddy Piper 81. Vader 82. Edouard Carpentier 83. Mark Lewin 84. Earl Caddock 85. Ed Don George 86. The Undertaker 87. Pat Paterson 88. Henri DeGlane 89. Everett Marshall 90. Dick The Bruiser 91. Carlos Colon 92. Karloff Lagarde Sr. 93. Danny McShain 94. Enrique Torres 95. Atushi Onita 96. Abdullah The Butcher 97. Great Gama 98. Rey Mysterio Jr. 99. Bob Backlund 100. Dump Matsumoto

Others receiving votes: 101-Gory Guerrero 374 9 102-Dara Singh 373 8 103-Pat Patterson 356 11 104-Karl Gotch 356 8 105- Bill Miller 355 9 106-Mildred Burke 349 11 107-Everett Marshall 328 10 108-Sandor Szabo 308 10 109-Joe Savoldi 308 5 110-Mick Foley 291 13 111-Justin Liger 277 10 112-Ad Santel 274 4 113-Dynamite Kid 270 8 114-Jim Browning 268 8 115-Toots Mondt 251 6 116-Danno O’Mahoney 249 8 117-Mick McManus 246 8 118-Primo Carnera 229 6 119-Eddie Guerrero 220 7 120-Nobuhiko Takada 219 10 121-Enrique Torres 209 9 122-Chris Benoit 203 7 123-Col. J. H. McLaughlin 202 7 124-Rene Guajardo 198 4 125-Eddie Graham 196 7 126-Steve Casey 181 8 127-Negro Casas 176 4 128-George Gordienko 173 3 129-George Bothner 172 3 130-Dick Hutton 171 3 Carlos “Tarzan” Lopez 171 3 132-Bobby Managoff 170 5 133-Brock Lesnar 167 7 134-Villano III 167 5 135-Black Shadow 166 3 136-Jackie Pallo 165 3 137-Bert Assirati 163 9 138-Cavernario Galindo 163 5 139-Man Mountain Dean 158 4 140-Wahoo McDaniel 157 11 141-Fred Beell 150 6 142-Manami Toyota 146 6 143-Atsushi Onita 146 4 144-Billy Joyce 143 2 145-Masahiro Chono 135 5 146-Lord Lansdowne 134 3 147-Pedro Morales 132 8 148-Wilbur Snyder 132 4 149-Joe Malcewicz 131 3 150-Danny Mc Shain 129 6 151-Duncan C. Ross 128 4 152-Big Daddy (Shirley Crabtree) 127 6 153-Bill Watts 126 5 154-Dos Caras 126 4 155-Mr Moto 126 2 156-Ivan Poddubney 124 2 157-Ivan Koloff 123 5 158-Cien Caras 123 4 159-Joe Acton 122 4 160-Yusuf Ismail (Terrible Turk) 121 2 161-Dr Ben Roller 120 6 162-Kintaro Oki 119 3 163-Sting 118 7 164-Mark Lewin 118 5 165-Don Eagle 116 5 166-Ernst Roeber 116 3 167-Ernie Ladd 114 6 168-Ted Dibiase 113 7 169-Clarence Eklund 108 4 170-Kinji Shibuya 107 2 171-Road Warrior Hawk 101 2 Roadwarror Animal 101 2 173-Chigusa Nagayo 100 5 174-Jack Reynolds 99 3 Chief Little Wolf 99 3 176-Hiro Matsuda 99 2 177-Mr Wrestling II (Tim Woods)92 1 178-Jackie Fargo 89 3 179-Don Curtis 89 1 180-Luther Lindsey 88 1 181-Dump Matsumoto 87 6 182-Tom Connors 85 2 183-Josh Barnett 85 1 184-CM Punk 84 5 185-Little Beaver 84 2 186-Kazushi Sakuraba 84 1 187-Sky Low Low 83 3 188-Hiroshi Tanahashi 82 4 189-Zebra Kid 80 2 190-Jack Sherry 79 1 191-Marin Plestina 78 1 192-Hans Steinke 76 2 193-Nat Pendleton 76 1 194-Pepper Gomez 75 4 195-Taro Miyake 75 3 196-Rolland Bock 74 1 197-Theobaud Bauer 73 1 198-Akira Hokuto 72 3 199-Jack Taylor 69 1 200-Ernie Dusek 66 2 201-Charles Olsen 65 2 Satanico 65 2 203-Earl McCready 64 4 204-Jack Carkeek 64 2 205-Rudy Dusek 63 1 206-El Rayo de Jalisco 62 2 207-Emil Dusek 62 1 Paul Jones 62 1 Matty Matsuda 62 1 210-Karloff Lagarde Sr 61 3 211-Joe Dusek 61 1 212-Karl Pojello 60 1 213-Konnan 59 1 214-Otto Wanz 58 3 215-Yukio Tani 58 1 216-Horst Hoffman 57 2 Jerry Graham 57 2 Henri Irslinger 57 2 219-Wild Red Berry 57 1 Big Show 57 1 221-El Charro Aguayo 56 1 222-Dr Wagner 55 2 223-Joe Turner 55 1 224-Dick Murdoch 54 2 225-Pirata Morgan 54 1 226-MS-1 53 1 227-Yukon Eric 52 2 228-Matsada Sorakichi 52 1 229-Curt Henning 49 2 230-Edwin Bibby 49 1 231-Bobby Bruns 48 1 232-Atlantis 47 2 233-Charlie “Midget” Fischer 47 1 234-Ben Sherman 46 2 Edge 46 2 236-Pet Brown 46 1 Anibal 46 1 238-Medico Asesino 45 3 239-Dr Wagner Jr 45 1 Aja Kong 45 1 241-George Zaharias 44 1 Ivan Gomes 44 1 243-Chris Jericho 43 3 244-Tiger Jeet Singh 43 1 El Angel Blanco 43 1 246-Chief Chewacki 42 1 William Demetral 42 1 L.A. Park 42 1 249-Leroy McGuirk 41 2 250-Judo Gene LeBell 41 1 Leo Nomelini 41 1 252-Sammy Steamboat 40 1 Randy Orton 39 2 254-Harvey Parker 39 1 255-Yussif Mahmout 38 1 256-Carlos Colon 37 3 257-Dan McLeod 37 2 258-Waino Ketonen 37 1 259-Murcielago Velazquez 35 1 260-Baron Michele Leone 34 2 Paul Orndorff 34 2 262-Mike Sharpe 34 1 Kiyoshi Tamura 34 1 Espanto I 34 1 265-Bearcat Wright 33 3 266-Paul Boesch 33 1 Ben Sharpe 33 1 Jimmy Snuka 33 1 Steve Williams 33 1 Espanto II 33 1 271-Huracan Ramirez 32 3 272-H. M. Dufur 32 1 273-Emile “King Kong” Czaja 31 2 274-Yussiff Hussane 31 1 Negro Navarro 31 1 276-Volk Han 30 1 Sputnick Monroe 30 1 El Signo 30 1 279-El Texano 29 1 Gus “Americus” Schoenlein 29 1 281-Ilio DiPaolo 28 2 Gus Kallio 28 2 283-Junkyard Dog 28 1 284-Seelie Samara 27 1 Dan Koloff 27 1 286-Killer Karl Kox 26 2 287-Reginald Siki 26 1 288-Ruffy Silverstein 25 1 289-Dean Detton 24 2 290-Greek George 24 1 291-Loffy Blomfield 23 3 292-Curtis Iaukea 23 2 293-Masakatsu Funaki 23 1 294-John McMahon 22 2 295-Dientes Hernandez 22 1 Jimmy Demetral 22 1 Fabulous Moolah 22 1 298-Jack O’Brien 21 1 Dave Levin 21 1 300-Rolando Vera 25 2 301-George Gracie 19 1 Rito Romero 19 1 303-Octavio Gaona 18 1 Ira Dern 18 1 305-Hugh Nichols 17 1 Terry Gordy 17 1 307-Alexander Aberg 16 1 Wayne Munn 16 1 309-Rusher Kimura 15 2 310-Chiyo Obata 15 1 Joe Pazandak 15 1 Shinsuke Nakamura 15 1 313-Carl Abs 14 1 Kazuyuki Fujita 14 1 Sammy Cohen 14 1 316-Jimmy Esson 13 1 317-Gypsy Joe (Gilberto Merendez) 12 1 Dick Daviscourt 12 1 Daniel Bryan 12 1 Jaguar Yokota 12 1 321-Blue Panther 11 1 Dick Cardinal 11 1 323-Rick Martel 10 2 324-Black Gordman 10 1 Euclydes “Tatu” Hatem 10 1 Kotetsu Yamamoto 10 1 325-Umanosuke Ueda (Mr Ito) 9 1 George Pencheff 9 1 Masahiko Kimura 9 1 Alfonso Dantes 9 1 329-Charlie “Kid” Cutler 8 1 Kerry Von Erich 8 1 Joe Leduc 8 1 Tony Charles 8 1 333-Johnny Rougeau 7 1 Fritz Hanson 7 1 Roy Dunn 7 1 Ricky Morton 7 1 337-Dino Bravo 6 1 Ken Shamrock 6 1 Benny Sherman 6 1 340-Abe Coleman 5 1 Bull Nakano 5 1 Billy Riley 5 1 343-Sputnik Monroe 4 1 Bill Eadie 4 1 Ray Gunkel 4 1 Raul Romero 4 1 347-Vincent Lopez 3 1 Karl Von Hess 3 1 Lizmark 3 1 350-Billy Wicks 2 1 351-George Kidd 1 1 August Sepp 1 1 George Tragos 1 1

So Steve Yohe organized a vote on the "Greatest 100 Wrestling Stars" over at Classics over the last couple of months. The voters were selected by invite/approval, and it was a simple list from 1-100 of the top wrestling stars in history in the eyes of each voter. Steve discussed his idea of the criteria over at Classics, but he left it open to interpretation of the individual voters. In the end 26 people voted, representing a fairly broad cross section of researchers, fans, and historians. The list of voters were: #1-Steve Yohe #2-Jan H. (Man-E-Faces or H7-25) from Germany #3-Etsuji Koizumi #4-Joe Opiela #5-Steve Johnson #6-J Michael Kenyon #7-Bert fron NJ #8-Jagdip Dhillon (Jag from tOA) #9-Bertrand Hebert #10-Mark Hewitt #11-Don Luce #12-John Pelan #13-Tim Hornbaker #14-Clawmaster64 #15-Pat Laprade #16-Keith Martinson #17-Koji Miyamoto #18-Jose Fernandez #19-Dave Musgrave #20-Dylan Hales #21-Crimson Mask #22-Kris Zellner #23-Ed Lock #24-Hisaharu Tanabe #25-Mat Farmer #26-Dave Meltzer He came out with the final results today and given the discussion that was had here over Larry Matysik's Top 50 book, I figured the results were worth cross posting here. Below is the top 100. Next to the names are the number of "points" each wrestler got, the number of ballots they appeared on, an the number of first place votes where applicable. I will follow up with posts that include the "others receiving votes" list, my own 100, and personal thoughts on the final results 1- Lou Thesz 2425 26 6 2- Jim Londos 2384 26 12 3- Hulk Hogan 2318 25 2 4- Ed “Strangler” Lewis 2303 26 1 5- Frank Gotch 2300 26 3 6- Bruno Sammartino 2247 26 7-Ric Flair 2225 25 1 8-Andre The Giant 2220 26 9-Rikidozan 2208 26 10- Buddy Rogers 2102 25 11-El Santo 2091 23 1 12-Antonio Inoki 1987 24 13- Steve Austin 1975 23 14-Joe Stecher 1929 24 15-Shohei Baba 1801 22 16-Gorgeous George 1770 23 17-Verne Gagne 1769 24 18-The Rock 1765 23 19-George Hackenschmidt 1725 24 20-Harley Race 1637 23 21-Antonino Rocca 1573 24 22-Nick Bockwinkel 1562 25 23-Dory Funk Jr 1487 24 24-Mil Mascaras 1481 23 25-Dusty Rhodes 1459 22 26-Stanislaus Zbyszko 1443 24 27-Terry Funk 1421 23 28-Gene Kiniski 1349 22 29-The Destroyer 1333 25 30-Mitsuharu Misawa 1323 20 31-Wild Bill Longson 1308 21 32-Jack Brisco 1298 22 33-Edouard Carpentier 1285 23 34-Jumbo Tsuruta 1283 22 35-Killer Kowalski 1253 21 36-William Muldoon 1246 19 37-Freddie Blassie 1236 24 38-Randy Savage 1231 22 39-Stan Hansen 1217 21 40-The Sheik 1152 21 41-Farmer Burns 1118 18 42-Bret Hart 1101 22 43-Whipper Watson 1086 21 44-Yvon Robert 1080 20 45-John Cena 1064 21 46-Dick The Bruiser 1043 21 47-Pat O’Connor 1018 23 48-Gus Sonnenberg 1013 18 49-Shawn Michaels 982 18 50-The Undertaker 964 19 51-Kenta Kobashi 964 17 52-Johnny Valentine 960 24 53-Blue Demon 941 16 54-John Pesek 902 17 55-Ray Stevens 855 22 56-Earl Caddock 852 17 57-Bobo Brazil 844 19 58-Bruiser Brody 823 17 59-Tiger Mask I (Sayama) 814 17 60-Riki Choshu 807 16 61-Bob Backlund 787 19 62-Keiji Muto 781 19 63-Maurice Tillet 765 15 64-Genichiro Tenryu 757 16 65-The Great Gama 709 12 66-Akira Maeda 695 18 67-Bronko Nagurski 685 16 68-Evan “Strangler” Lewis 649 15 69-Toshiaki Kawada 647 15 70-Fritz Von Erich 636 15 71-Tom Jenkins 630 13 72-Perro Aguayo 629 15 73-Tatsumi Fujinami 607 18 74-Don Leo Jonathan 605 14 75-Roddy Piper 594 14 76-Big Van Vader 578 16 77-Jerry Lawler 572 14 78-Danny Hodge 559 20 79-Ed Don George 554 15 80-Dick Shikat 551 14 81-Abdullah The Butcher 520 17 82-Billy Robinson 517 13 83-Kurt Angle 516 13 84-Ray Steele 515 11 85-Triple H 505 15 86-El Hijo Del Santo 500 14 87-El Solitario 498 8 88-Frank Sexton 492 10 89-Shinya Hashimoto 488 14 90-Rick Steamboat 469 14 91-Canek 464 9 92-Mad Dog Vachon 456 14 93-Orville Brown 456 13 94-Wladek Zbyszko 452 14 95-Billy Graham 448 12 96-Hans Schmidt 435 12 97-The Crusher 433 10 98-Rey Misterio Jr 407 12 99-Ray Mendoza 401 6 100-Henri De Glane 392 14

Even if they booked Punk v. Bryan, it would get fifteen minutes tops.

I could be wrong, but I believe Jericho/Michaels feud was credited with doing better than average business at the time. No clue if that is true or not, or even if it's something that I made up in my head, but I could swear that was part of the argument for him. In any case he shouldn't have won, but I tend to think a lot of the WON Wrestler of the Year winners have been bad. One thing I will say is that I'm not sure that drawing power and performance are supposed to be equal parts of the criteria. In my eyes there is already an award for best in ring worker (Bryan falls outside of my top three there too at the moment, though he's very close). The Thesz/Flair Award doesn't discount working ability (or promos/character/whatever), but it's an award that I have always seen as being more about who the biggest stars are. In wrestling the biggest stars are generally defined by drawing power. I agree that it is tougher now to ascertain who is and isn't a draw than it was in the past but there are still indicators. I think this year clearly showed that Cena is the biggest full time star in wrestling so he will be number one. I don't even like Okada as a worker, so if I was weighing that much at all he plummets out of any consideration, but as a star I think he's clearly coming into his own. As the guy who has carried the title of the second promotion in the world, main evented strong shows against a variety of opponents (Tanahashi, Kojima, Ibushi, et), and has headlined probably at least half of the biggest drawing shows of the year in Japan for a promotion on the uptick, he is a guy I have no problem with as two (in fact if Cena had been out longer I would have voted him number one). I don't think Bryan is a bad pick at three in a weak year. Looking at work as a sort of tiebreaker for this award, or more importantly something that can help you, but not really hurt you in my eyes (see Okada) it's a plus for him. But there is nothing that compels me to vote for him and I find that bothersome as this is an award where I feel like the argument should be so strong that it's hard to argue against inclusion.

Goldust is undeserving and would be a pure "I like this guy vote" in a weak year

Heh. Still think Bryan wins though cause he doesn't have a lot of competition this year. I don't think Okada or Tanahashi are really up there this year. Punk fell off. John Cena missed some time. If you could vote for The Shield as one unit, maybe! I agree with Goldust for Comeback & Reigns for Rookie although I like Summer Rae too, she has no chance of even getting a vote. Reigns isn't eligible for rookie. What might hurt Okada and Tanahashi is the fact that NJPW folks could split the vote. I contend that Okada is a much better candidate than Tanahashi, but I have been told I'm crazy for thinking that by people who are bigger NJPW fans than I am. At this point I am likely to vote WOTY Cena, Okada.....no clue who is third. I actually don't see anyone with a super compelling case. I'm not a fan of Tanahashi, but I acknowledge that he would be a reasonable pick, though nothing he did in the last year really makes me feel like he's a super strong candidate. I am a fan of Bryan, but if we look at returns he arguably had a less impressive year than Mark Henry's 2011, and I was told I was "stretching" for a favorite of mine when I touted him as a strong candidate that year. Punk was unwatchable for much of the year, stuck in one of the least interesting feuds involving good talents I can remember. Orton is better as a heel, but he's still not someone I want to watch, and he does nothing for business at all (not even as a merch seller). I wouldn't vote for part timers for this award, and I don't think Lesnar or HHH deserve it anyway, with The Rock being so horrible in the ring I can't really see voting for him either. The rest of Japan is in trouble, except for Dragon Gate and I can't imagine anyone from that fed being a strong candidate. Super indies are on their ass relative to other years, and I don't see someone to throw a bone to there. There is no one near what Aries was doing as a worker/act in TNA last year, so I can't see tossing a "breakout year" vote to anybody there. Last year I had Casas in my top three, and I think Casas and Rush have had really strong in ring years this year in Mexico, but CMLL isn't really drawing worth a shit. I agree with the notion that The Shield as a unit would be worth some sort of vote but that's not possible. For that reason I am tempted to vote them 1,2,3 in that category, even though that is completely absurd. As it stands I can't see having 2 NJPW guys in my top three (especially when I don't think much of either guy as a worker), nor am I high on giving Bryan the benefit of the doubt, like every other "smart" fan on earth. Given that I might just vote Goldust third since there is no "comeback" category, and the guy works harder than anyone else in the company.

Cesaro is clearly the most underrated. I think Impact won best show and worst show last year. Basically the people voting for WWE shows split the vote.

Reigns and Rollins will be 1 and 2 on my most improved list. I think Rookie of The Year is an obsolete category, but I will vote for Andrew Everett

Bumping this because voting is open now and since they don't take Dec. into account, the "year" they cover is complete. Would love to hear other peoples thoughts, particularly on the major awards if they have them.

Race and Matysik are St. Louis guys in my mind and there is a huge conflict with Memphis wrestling.

Conversely Jim Cornette thinks Lawler is the best of all time

Best non-Buddy Rose match of 1980.

Orton is one of those guys I suspect we would all view really highly if we had more Crockett from his run there and/or if he had more "chances" in places that made lots of tape. Having said that he's not the best wrestler of all time.