Dylan Waco

This show was really awesome. I explored the question about nationalization and Paul Vachon that I mentioned in that the Flair thread the other day and got the answer I thought but in greater detail. Lots of talk on Generico at the end and what his future might hold. Some great stories from the book and stuff that didn't quite make the book. I butchered the last name of the "other" Mad Dog while trying to tout him. Some good stuff on PCO, Frenchy Martin, Dino Bravo, guys having to leave Monreal to get over huge, the importance of the athletic commission to Montreal wrestling, a discussion of how the book took it's shape, the awesome almanac-style stuff at the end of the book, whether or not a guy named Dick The Bruiser was right to criticize the ring name of another famous wrestler, a cool discussion of the Rougeaus/Garvins feud. One of my favorites that we've done.

If I am free at the time of said shows I will call up and tell you why your opinions are all wrong and mine is right

Corino is a favorite of mine. Watching him carry Tommy Rich by bumping and bleeding like he was Tommy Rich in a match held LAST YEAR was one of the better "thank god for youtube" finds of 2012. Really I doubt there is anyone who was more fucked by timing than Corino. If he had come around a few years before he did he would have been a massive star. A few years after and he might have been a massive star too. If WCW had signed him in 99 instead of 2001 it's easy to see him getting in on the ground level and being so over Vince would have picked him up for his talking skills alone. Even in ECW he was fucked by timing, as he was booked in a lot of clusterfucks and didn't hit the top til a lot of the better guys were gone. I always thought Corino would have been ten thousand times better than HHH as the top heel of WWF in 99/00

Without Hogan the national run wouldn't have worked, certainly not as well as it did. Very possible there would never have been WM III. Of course it's moot, because Hogan was ALWAYS going to go to NY. If you are going to play what ifs, "Hogan dies in a fire" is a more realistic scenario to operate from

To be fair Luger was a better draw as a challenger to Flair than Sting and we have no clue how he would have done as a babyface ace.

Luger. I do like Sting's matches with Foley, but Luger has more versatility, his career year is better, his body of work is bigger and I think he was better in the particulars than Sting. The only place Sting beats him is all time best match/series of matches.

any main event matches among that list?? Thoughts on Virgil as a non-wrestler?

Rip Rogers v. TNT Extremely fun tv title match. Rip Rogers really was a hell of a journeyman and is a case of a guy who seemed to mesh well against just about anyone. Here he goes into PR and works a match built largely around hiding the foreign object spots. It's not genius work, but I did think it was very clever that Rogers method was to hide the object in his knee pad and he had was very good about making it look like a legit adjustment when he pulled it out to use it. He was also really good about positioning the ref in ways that obscured what he was up to. TNT bled as he always does and took some really nice bumps, including a sick post show, a slow mo bump to the floor and a couple of big bumps over the barricade and into the first section of seating. When he makes his comeback he fucking cleans the clock of Rogers with a kick on the floor and Rip does a good job reacting to everything. Finish with the teased superplex and TNT rolling through on the splash off the top was pretty much perfect for what was essentially a studio match. Very enjoyable.

So Flair would rather have a "great" match than beat his opponent?

I don't disagree on Rheingans. He was clearly a Verne favorite as evidenced by the fact that he got the Patera/Taylor push upon debuting IIRC, but he never got any traction. Despite that Verne stayed with him for years

If you were talking greatness in kayfabe terms, why the comment about him wanting to have great matches? That's the most non-kayfabe thing ever no?

Not that uncommon during the period.

In early 80's I'm guessing based on what I've seen, read that Youngblood was akin to Jim Brunzell in the AWA during same rough time frame. That might even be a slightly favorable representation. In any case the point is that Rheingans v. Bock was about building a new major building challenger for Bock.

Was Youngblood being positioned for multiple world title matches in big arenas?

This is an aside sort of, but I often think I would have LOATHED Japanese wrestling if I hadn't had people giving me the back story to things as I was getting into it.

I'm not saying you are the only one. I'm saying I don't see it as a major flaw of Bock, nor do I see it as a particularly common way for Bock to work, nor do I think it is dissimilar in any way from the way Flair often worked studio matches. Flair may get more in in that match - but the reality is he gets next to nothing in that match and there was zero in that match that made him look like a better wrestler than Youngblood. Nothing. And Youngblood wasn't getting Rheingans singles push.

I still don't know what is meant by Lucha "style." Do people mean trios?

The first Lucha match I ever saw was a cibernetico. That is the absolute worst possible way to try and start watching Lucha and kept me from going back for years.

I don't disagree that Lucha isn't for everyone. Virtually every fan is going to have at least one promotion that they are going to loathe, or style. Lucha is not really a style or a promotion, but still. What I would say is that I don't think it is impossibly difficult to "get." And I would also Lucha brawls are actually easier to "get" than virtually any other kind of match I can think of

Flair gets his ass beat in a lot of matches, especially studio matches. I actually think the claim that he doesn't is kind of weird. I looked up "Ric Flair studio" and this is the first match that came up: This is Flair v. Jay Youngblood perhaps from 81 MACW tv out of Charlotte. Flair is the world champion. The match goes about eight minutes to a draw. I doubt very seriously they were building to a Flair v. Youngblood series of house show main events. The match goes to draw at about eight minutes. Youngblood wins every exchange of the first six minutes decisively. Flair throws to the floor shortly after the six minute mark. Flair's run of offense lasts for about a minute. Then Jay makes his comeback and has Flair on the ropes when time expires. Now it's possible Flair gets more offense in this then Bock did v. Rheingans - I really don't remember. But the reality is Ric got his ass kicked and was completely shown up in this match. He got virtually no offense to the point where seven of the eight minutes was him getting his ass kicked. As world champion. Against a guy who I doubt seriously was getting a major title shot, let alone series of shots like Rheingans was being groomed for. This is literally the first match I picked.

I'm not offended. If you are being serious and I assume you are I just strongly disagree and if shitty/contrived offense is something you really dislike, I"m not sure why Michaels is a favorite.

I have seen matches where Flair gets out wrestled and dominated by pending challengers before.

There is a major flaw with this line of thinking. Brad Rheingans and Rick Martel aren't Sam Houston or Italian Stallion.

Yeah Flair v. Mulligan feud is still talked about. Atlas v. Patera is an angle/feud that is also fondly remembered by MACW people, though I wouldn't give it much credit for that number.

Awesome. Pat and Bertrand will be on for round 2 with Dave and I on Saturday.