Dylan Waco

Almost positive there is

He's had plenty of good matches in TNA and even more good performances that were ruined on some level by dogshit booking. I like Jarrett and don't think there was ever a point where he was less than solid. But it's a very hard sell because there is no question that he never reached the potential of his early yeas and his character work was so annoying/poor it's virtually impossible to disconnect that from what he was able to do in the ring.

It's the best Jarrett match in a major promotion. It's also one of the only times Jarrett got any meaningful time and was working a match catered to his style in a major U.S. promotion. It's also definitely a top ten Shawn Michaels singles match. Probably top five. If you count tag matches I would agree it might not be top ten.

I like Taker too and hate arguing against him because I think he's had some very strong runs. I would have no problem with someone saying his absolute best matches are better than Blackwell's (not sure I'd believe this but I don't think it's crazy to say) or that he has more good taped matches than Blackwell. I don't think there is any argument for Taker being as consistently good (particularly since we now have some glimmers of Blackwell from the 70's online) and I don't think Taker was nearly good in the particulars. As I said in the Blackwell thread in The Microscope, Blackwell's best years were spent working guys like old Mad Dog Vachon, old Crusher and Bruiser Brody. Yes he got to work with the High Flyers who were a legitimately great team, but Blackwell wasn't a guy who got huge advantages via booking. We don't have any matches v. Verne, Bock, Martel or Hennig. In the matches we have where he is paired off with other great talent they all deliver and some of those are when he was clearly past his physical prime. I'd put the best Sheiks v. Flyers match, the Taped Fist tag match from the AWA Set, Blackwell v. Reed, the Starrcage 85 handicapped tag match, Blackwell v. Vachon Aglerian Death Match, Blackwell v. Hansen from Oakland right with the best of Taker's best stuff. Of the matches you listed, I think all of these matches are at minimum in the same range. To be honest I'd give Blackwell a net advantage if those matches rvd listed are the "best" Taker matches though I realize some people are higher on things like Taker v. Shawn I and II than I am (I'm hardly "low" on either).

Carlos Colon v. Steve Strong - Barbed Wire 1989 No clue what order these are in so I just started watching them. May have started with the blow off first for all I know. In any case this had an outstanding atmosphere and they do a great job getting over the gimmick, but it wasn't a good match. Not Colon's fault really as I thought Strong was pretty terrible for most of this. This is a blood feud match and he is working the arm and trying to do wire spots around that which in theory is not awful, but this is a guy doing a powerhouse gimmick. He has really weak looking strikes to which is distracting in a match like this. On the other hand I liked Colon's selling and facial expressions a lot and I thought this had a sort of "going for broke" feel toward the end which I like in matches like this. Chicky Starr screw job finish and restart was pretty ridiculous, but it did lead to a mini riot with fans throwing shit toward the ring and paramilitaries whipping swarming crowd members off of five foot platforms. Best parts of this were the pre and post match though again the PR atmosphere makes most anything watchable. Steve Strong v. Carlos Colon - 1989 JIP with about seven minutes of the match shown. This was much better than the barbed wire match, though the heat wasn't at that level. Still Strong looked a lot better here. He's still a guy that moves awkwardly and works like a self conscious Rhyno, but he did hit a really nice jumping piledriver and the rest o his stuff looked sufficiently impactful. Colon sold his ass off in this and bled and didn't get a ton in though he did throw one really great looking knee lift. There was some really good camera work in this which is something I have noticed in a lot of these WWC matches a major plus. Crazy spot with Strong back body dropping Colon right onto the ref who is standing, then Chicky Starr loads up his arm pad and he wins wit a loaded lariat. Gotta love the consistency with that being the Colon killer. Finish gets overturned, but I did love Colon selling the neck minutes after the finish. What was shown here was pretty good. Steve Strong v. Carlos Colon - Cage Match 1989 This is a fully enclosed cage in the vein of wargames so it has a different feel than some of these other matches. This is JIP and we only get about 4:30 of the match which is really too bad because I liked what was shown. Colon was already a bloody mess and was making his comeback by working the leg. Strong sold well and they did a really solid figure-four spot, with Strong's reversal actually setting up Colon in peril again. Colon gets decked with a lariat, but Strong picks him up and goes for a loaded lariat only for Carlos to lock in a less than smooth crucifix for the pin. Really got the feeling this was probably the last half of good match, but we'll never know.

Thanks or Matt to pointing this out to me as I try and keep my eye out for new Blackwell Crusher Blackwell v. Tony Russo - WWWF Undercard WWWF match with Vince on commentary that I really enjoyed in a sort of 1997 WCW Worldwidish way. Very short, but we get to see a lot of fun stuff out of Blackwell including some great weeble wobblish selling of the initial Russo flurry, a good bump on a missed avalanche and some pretty sweet offense. You could argue the bearhug was a bit ridiculous in a match like this but he used it as a ring positioning weapon and to set up Russo's hope spot. Loved the wild leg drop to the back and that falling headbutt of his is one of my all time favorite moves. Just looks completely devastating, like an old growth redwood tumbling onto a logger. Finish with Blackwell trampolining on the bottom rope and then killing Russo with a splash was good stuff too. Fun match

I'm really disappointed no one made a joke about Harley's Reign In Blood

I can't find this fucking match online and don't feel like digging out my dvd's god damnit

I can accept the argument that Vader was better than Blackwell, but I don't think there is any reason to believe either of the matches you mentioned would have been ten times better with Vader. I also don't think that tag match is close to being a high end Blackwell match. I like Taker fine, but Blackwell is better. I like Michaels v. Taker but I don't even think it's the match of that year let alone match of the decade. I also like Jarrett v. Shawn, but I don't think it's a big surprise that he had that sort of quality match in that style with Jarrett and I don't think that's even close to the best Memphis style match ever.

Looks like there are clips from other matches and possibly the whole barbed wire match. I will watch those first to build up to the big blow off

This may very well be true. It could be that the WWE has finally reached the point with me where I just can't stand what they are offering anymore and I will finally gravitate away from the product as so many others have done.

If that's a great finish then bring on the shitty finishes from now until the end of time. I do enjoy that this is one of the few things in recent memory I can remember the WWE doing that John is on record as loving.

The Missing Link v. Stan Hansen - 1987 The best part of this was the overdubbed music during the entrance. Well that and Hugo randomly coming in with English commentary at two points for no reason at all. This was the quietest I can remember hearing a live crowd being PR and I don't blame them. Link was just terrible in this. It looked like Hansen wanted to work, but Link didn't sell shit, took ginger bumps ad it's almost impossible to make his offense look good. Hansen was working lighter than usual, which is a shame because by the end of this I really wanted him to potato Robertson. To be fair to Dewey he was probably working this tour for coke and may or may not have been crashing in between bumps here. Stan Hansen/Chicky Starr v. Carlos Colon/Huracan Castillo Sr. - 12/86 This is another piece of the awesome Hansen/Colon feud puzzle. If I'm not mistaken Castillo is the commission member Hansen killed with a lariat after he narc'ed Stan out and stopped him from putting Colon away with a loaded lariat in an earlier match. This starts off a brawl, turns into a structured attack on Colon with the heels keeping him in isolation (including some fun stuff with Colon/Starr worked along the lines of Bobby Heenan v. established star), then devolves into a wild brawl with an awesome ending angle. I actually thought the star of this to the extent there was one was Starr. He took some really nasty elbows from Castillo, bled a ton and came across really effective as the sniveling little prick. This is mainly notable for the post-match where Hansen hangs Colon with his bullrope until the face locker room empties out to make the save. Nothing great, but a nice addition to the feud. Greg Valentine v. Miguel Perez Jr. - 1/92 I will probably never tire of watching Greg Valentine stiff dudes and I thought the initial figure-four transition was clever but this wasn't very good. Perez was off on several cues and really didn't add anything to the match other than a couple of nice dropkicks. The story of the match revolved more around Perez dad being handcuffed to Valentine's second then anything else which would have been okay if either guy was interesting. Unfortunately they weren't. Chicky Starr v. Eric Embry - 1989 This is JIP, but I doubt much if anything of note is missing. This wasn't a great match, but I loved it. Very straight forward, simple match, but both of these guys are just fun to watch when they are on. Chicky's way of reacting to ever offensive move Embry throws at him is just really great as it is exaggerated enough to have effect, but not so much that it becomes ridiculous. Lots of good punches in this and I liked the idea of Starr attacking the leg and Embry dropping the strap on his comeback. This had a stalling segment that may have been a bit long and I could see some hating the finish, but I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I'm not a fan of trying to find hard and fast objective metrics as I think was illustrates to a (perhaps) ridiculous degree in the Bret v. Flair thread. I just don't think you can quantify everything and I think it's really hard to do so by attaching numbers to something like this. Doesn't mean I think it is "wrong" it just is really hard for me to place how I could ever do it. Hogan provides a good example. You say Hogan would be a five in meaningfulness, and on a scale of five that is obviously a perfect score. But here is the thing. If meaningfulness is being pushed as a key aspect of "work" it's kind of hard to see how Hogan could be a five and Dibiase could be a four. I can accept that the gap between Ted and Bossman is one point. The gap between Hogan and Ted? Well it sure as hell feels like the most meaningful guy ever ought to have an edge of more than one point. Also not sure Hogan can be seen as a 2 during his WWF run under form if the metric is pure output. Certainly don't see how Hogan can be seen as a 2 and Ted a 3. I don't think it's a stretch to say Hogan had far more matches we can point to as good matches in the WWF then Ted. That's not a knock on Ted. But that "meaningfulness" paid off for Hogan in several ways and one of them was that he often was involved in hot matches of solid quality. Getting at a broader criticism though I would say that I agree you can't be an all timer if all of your career is spent in heatless undercard matches. But I can't think of a single person of that sort who would be considered an all timer. It seems to me that these things sort themselves out as guys who have that meaningfulness are likely to be given chances where they can show what they can do. Sometimes people don't get those chances, but by and large they do.

Never and I'm not sure I could mentally handle it.

He's a heel champ and I bet one can find a dozen pussy and loser things he's done in his 400+ days a champ. Okay... probably two dozen. They're heel lackies of Punk who have been fucking over Punk's opponents since Survivors. This was their payback: their plan to help Punk defeated Rock "worked"... but Vince wouldn't let it stand, it didn't work. Heels get fucked after fucking faces. Pro Wrestling 101. Vince: "I'm going to strip Punk of the title due to The Shield fucking up the match." Rock: "Wait a fucking minute, Vince. Don't strip him. They tried to fuck me out out my shot at winning the title. I want to beat his fucking ass... restart the fucking match!" Vince: "You got balls the size of grapefruits, Rock, for wanting to continue the match after the ass kicking that The Shield and Punk just gave you. I respect that... I'm going to restart the match!" That ain't a favor. Heels fucked up a main event yet again to fuck over the face(s). Vince has had enough of it, and is going to strip Punk of the title which would hurt Punk because he really loves the egofuck of the long reign. Rock doesn't want his chance at the title fucked up because of the heels, and asks for a restart. Good god... this is total babyface shit. The Shield's (and Punk & Heyman's) Grand Plan fails, and Rock keeps his chance at winning the title (and does it). Great shit. John As arguably the biggest non-Johnny Sorrow WWE fan on this board I guess I just hate pro wrestling 101, because I don't find this argument convincing at all and thought it came off as incredibly obvious dog shit to the point where I would be more willing to listen to someone explain to me why Jeep Swenson is the great forgotten worker of the 80's, then I would accept that this was even a pretty good finish, let alone a textbook example of "great shit" in wrestling.

Okay. I'm not sure what your point is. But okay.

If I had to guess they will go with Del Rio v. Ziggler for the World title and Sheamus, Orton, Jericho v. The Shield.

I wasn't expecting Rock to do a stretcher job, because I wasn't expecting a finish to be that idiotic and awful on every level.

Possibly true. Maybe even likely true. They do not make up the majority of wrestling fans though. Or even a near majority. Which was my point.

He's had several matches with both that have made tape in that time frame.

Top 70's matches are the Dundee and Race matches from 77 right? Am I missing anything else in full that would be in consideration?

A larger % than we do. John Who are "we?"

It's not a secret that I would have preferred Punk retain, since I think he needs the belt and/or a meaningful match at Mania and there is no way in hell Punk v. Taker has any intrigue and value at all without the title given the scenario. But that's not why I hated the finish. I hated the finish because everyone comes out of it looking like complete trash. Punk looks like a loser and a pussy. If he had lost straight up in the context of an "epic" match you could at least say competitive and lost in the midst of a war. Instead he got his licks in, was getting his ass kicked, his buddies saved him, then there was a restart after The Rock had been "destroyed," then he lost after exactly two offensive moves, one of which takes about fifteen to twenty seconds to execute. I'm rarely the guy who will argue for more near falls in a match, but this is an instance where near falls would have given Punk a chance to leave looking decent. Instead he looked like dog shit and I can't imagine how they are going to try and make him look even semi-credible against Taker assuming they go that route. If they actually have him end The Streak after this (highly unlikely, but a remote possibility), it will mean less as it will just seem phony as fuck even by the standards of a phony as fuck business. My guess is he gets plugged into a Triple Threat with Rock and Cena, which at least keeps him in main events, but is something I have zero interest in watching. Of course at this point I have zero interest in watching The Rock, and it's possible a triple threat might hide the fact that he has trouble breathing and occupying space at the same time, but fuck a triple threat. The Shield looked stupid and ineffective. The turning out the lights bit made sense and was actually something I predicted in a conversation with someone earlier in the week. But then it was all shot to shit. Triple powerbomb spot they use - especially through a table - has been the most protected spot in the company in a long time, possibly since Orton's punt. It couldn't even keep Rock down long enough for Vince to strip Punk of the title. Worse yet if Punk was going to get stripped anyhow on a presumption why didn't The Shield just come out again and kick the fuck out of The Rock again? Up until this point they've been portrayed as both dangerous and cunning. After last night they came across as mildly harmful and idiotic. Rock looked like a guy who was just getting favors from the boss. As it stood the crowd was extremely split last night and if anything it seemed like a pro-Punk crowd. I will grant that the Attitude Era style finish got them behind Rock for the big moment, but that's to be expected when you are virtually guaranteeing a title switch. But here you have a guy that calls his shots, gets a title shot for no reason in the first place, loses under the cover of darkness, then the boss comes out and gives him unprecedented powers to restart his own match. It reminded me of the tourney they did for the title after Punk bolted, where Rey won, then Cena got a title shot he didn't earn the same night after the final and won the belt. Just a total "special treatment for special people" bit and while it may be something that only matters to me, I'm not certain that's the case. You should have seen the look on my ten year olds face when I was trying to explain the finish to he this morning and she LOATHES Punk. I fucking HATED the finish to HITC with Punk/Ryback and couldn't imagine a worse ppv finish, but I thought this was EASILY worse at least to my eyes. I care less about the key players and Mania now than I have at any point I can remember after a Rumble.

I know this isn't a scientific exercise and may take a while to do, but I would like to see what Will's top ten Lawler matches would look like.