Dylan Waco

That's a MASSIVE flaw.

Over at Classics Dave Meltzer posted this in response to my most recent data dump: Not sure how big a deal that 199 figure is. Chris Harrington complied did main events in WWWF/WWF/WWE alone and non Hall of Famers Strongbow had 638, Putski had 589, Orton had 584, Big Show had 548, Edge had 530, Morales had 513 (and he main evented a lot of places before ever going to WWWF and some after), Batista 496, Kane 490, Valentine 388 and Santana 370. I went to Chris' page but can't find this cumulative main event data. I THINK I saw something he worked up in the Observer recently, but don't recall if this was it or not. I am 100% positive this included ALL MAIN EVENTS worked in the WWF alone which is radically different from major market main events. Not sure if Dave missed that distinction or what, but in any case I'd like to see Chris data on this. Anyone know where I can find it?

First of all I like all the Lucero records. You could argue weaknesses in all of them, but everyone is a little bit different and themed in a different way. Nobody's Darlings is a VERY guitar heavy album that really plays up their punk roots. Self Titled is very much a modern take on drop dead drunk country. Rebels, Rogues and Sworn Brothers has a very heavy Springstein influence. Et. Et. Et. They aren't afraid to introduce new instruments and sounds and play with traditional themes. They incorporate accordian into songs and it fucking works outstandingly well. I've seen hundreds of live bands (it's scary to think or say this, but it's probably over four figures to be honest) and they are at worst one of the five best live bands I've ever seen. I know Nichols voice annoys some people and the horns section on the last two album has alienated some long time fans, but I like Nichols voice and think the horns enhanced both records (particularly Overton Park which is one of the better beginning to end albums I can remember). I may be going to see them at the 9:30 club when they play with Shovels and Rope in a few months and I NEVER travel to see shows anymore....unless it's a Lucero show.

You can keep it as is. Not sure what to do with Joshi which feels like it should be included. You could go with Joshi, Continental, Montreal, Southwest for the remaining four slots, but that puts the kibosh on freelancers and will leave some people without an office home.

Gotta admit I didn't expect Moolah to come up in this thread.

Adding Central States is a waste. It would be Harley (which is arguable for a variety of reasons) and then a bunch of guys who would struggle to make all time top five hundred.

Geigel

Freelance is not a bad idea as a sort of wild card slot, but you'd have to figure out how to do it. A part of me wants to troll you into including Central States so Mike George gets a slot. It's tough because if you go with 16 you are going to have to cut something solid, but I'm not sure there is enough to get to 32 even if you were to split Mexico and count other feds from Japan/Europe.

O'Connor is the best of the workers from that era that I've seen. If I were doing a top hundred again he would be the only guy from that era I would put on right this second. Which goes to your point about the use of the word "all time."

St. Louis was a single town. So was Houston. Feels odd to use either as neither was a true territory and both used stars from elsewhere. Toronto used some local talent, but also used JCP and WWF for talent. The angles didn't always match up, but there was overlap. Not saying Maple Leaf shouldn't be included, but I think it's debatable. Since this is 80's wrestling and based on in ring I assume you could leave off San Fran and LA. World Class and Southwest are different. Alabama/Continental really should be included. I would argue for Montreal too, though few people have seen any of it

Too much hip-hop discussion without mention of Poor Righteous Teachers is something I instantaneously find annoying. Arm Leg Leg Arm Head didn't start with Nas or Wu Tang (or arguably even PRT but whatever). Also I'm a good multi-tasker, but OJ is giving me too much credit. Movies are sometimes hard to follow while doing other things, though not impossible depending on the movie. I also don't consider myself a big movie guy even though I have watched a ton and at one point was paid to review them. Books and music? Well yeah on that score I'm pretty insane with what I have read/heard, own and no a good bit about. But I've worked around both for huge chunks of my life and have other advantages. More to the point I generally don't enjoy talking about them online for reasons that are hard to articulate. But that's enough about me. Phil Ochs > Bob Dylan.

If we are restricting to U.S. guys he's a very solid contender for two. I think Barry Windham is an outstanding tag wrestler as is Arn.

My argument is that "big names" in wrestling cannot be divorced from context. Pointing to historical significance of guys or relative career stardom does not tell us how they were presented, promoted or used by a particular company. Buddy Landel and Dutch Mantell are two of my favorites but their inclusion on the WCW roster in the early 90's isn't an indication that the WCW roster was incredibly deep in any meaningful sense of the term.

Was randomly thinking this over the other night with my brother. In no particular order I settled on Terry Funk, Ric Flair, Jerry Lawler, Stan Hansen, Rey Mysterio, Buddy Rose, Nick Bockwinkel, Eddie Guerrero, Ricky Morton and Barry Windham. This is not so much a list of guys who I think are the ten best in U.S. rings only (i.e. Hansen would not be so high though I don't think it would effect the others), but rather the ten U.S. guys who would probably be the highest in a GOAT list if I were to ever do another (and let's face it, I will). Non-native born guys like Dundee, Finlay and Regal feel weird to leave off, but I'm not sure I'd rate them above any of those ten anyhow. I definitely wouldn't rate Bret above any of them. I'm really high on Arn and Savage, but can't quite see them above anyone on that list though I'd listen to arguments. Steamboat and Vader feel like omissions, but the older I get the less sure I am (I'm not positive I would rate Vader over Blackwell at this point - probably, but not positive). Bobby Eaton feels like an outside contender. I'm higher on Greg Valentine than most but top ten feels like a stretch. Daniel Bryan actually seems really close and I could maybe be convinced. Am I missing any other obvious names?

What year was that again?

Texas Hangman v. Carlos Colon/TNT - Cage Match 1990/91? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li_uhP7ffA4 Boy this was great. I know Jerry Blackwell Cage Matches are great, but WWC cages matches are right there with it. Virtually nothing I didn't like about this. Opening shine has a super hot crowd and goes on for a while but the Hangman make it work and everything looks extremely violent. Quad bleeding in this when things got going and the heat section on Carlos was great. Started off with him taking the big bump unprotected into the cage and spiraled from there with some awesome hope spots and cutoffs. Nothing fancy here, though the Hangman hit some big tackles and Carlos hit a decent crossbody for a near fall. But the psych was really good. Hot tag is solid and guess what? TNT gets a run before the double FIP on him kicks in. More violence and bleeding and then Colon shows up after the hot tag. Finish with the double sunset flips kind of sucked, but the post-match with the Hangman second passing them a baton to beat the fuck out of the faces was awesome. They ended up leaving them for dead in the ring, which was soaked in blood and looked like a steph infection waiting to happen. Jeff Jarrett and others make the save and The Hangman leave, bloody, with ripped masks as thousands of Puerto Rican fans belt them with trash and batteries. This ruled.

Having said this I do agree with OJ that WWE had programs that were built well on tv with guys like Jake and others and they had value. As much as value as RnR's to Crockett? I doubt it, but maybe that's just my regional perspective.

Jones could manage a stable of middling talent to headline B-Shows with an angle that was very over on tv. B shows meant a shitload to Crockett business model. Orndorff was a great draw opposite Hogan to the point where he got two shots. Muraco in 86 didn't mean much of anything as a drawing card, at least not to my recollection. Jones was a name that still had something to him in Crockett home base. He was positioned in such a way where that could be capitalized on. A guy like Harley Race was just one of a shitload of people that got plugged in against Hogan. So was Dr. D. So was Bad News Brown. So were a lot of people. Once they were done with Hogan I don't see very many of them that could be said to continue to have a great deal of relevance particularly after 86. Could they have been called back up to work Hogan in more programs? I suppose so, but really who couldn't have? Nikoli Volkoff got shots against Hogan. I'm sure John Nord would have gotten a run. It's not because they were huge stars, it's because they fit the mold and because they were expendable.

I don't think that's his point and it wasn't mine either. But Jones was a big regional draw in MACW and is a poor example of a guy to point to as joke mid-card act with no drawing history, particularly when you are pushing narrative of WWF mid-carders as draws based on previous stardom.

Blackwell had an awesome wild man falling headbutt back then too. For some reason I feel like mentioning that even though it is not directly related to anything

And while I don't wear a Nascar hat and only briefly worked for a subcontractor once, Valiant vs Jones is my favorite feud/ program of all time. It was directly what made me start watching Crockett. It was important, people cared deeply about it, and it was great long, long, long term booking. No way in hell I believe you don't own a Rusty Wallace hat.

Aren't you the guy who usually argues that presentation in wrestling matters more than we let on? You don't think it matters how they were presented or positioned? A mid-card can be stacked with good workers or guys who historically meant a lot and still not mean shit in terms of the matches/wrestlers being strong supporting acts for the promotion in question. When assessing drawing power and things of that nature how things were positioned and the general framework is essential. I really don't see what is hard to grasp about that. If you grew up a WWF fan sure. If you grew up in Crockett country in the mid-80's? I don't know about that. Ask yourself this question - Where is the "Night of The Skywalkers" equivalent for the WWF? Where is Tully/Magnum equivalent co-headlining biggest show of year? If we are being generous we could argue for Savage/Steamboat I guess, but that's a real stretch. No question that they fed new heels to their top draw. No question that some of these guys like Dibiase and Savage maintained levels of stardom. No question that others faded into mid-card obscurity, irrelevance or silliness. Paul Jones was top drawing card in MACW for a long time. Very close to the sort of guy you believe these WWF guys were even though I see no evidence that they were. Actually moreso because we have clear cases of Jones being positioned to draw and drawing as a singles. So Jones is a shit example to point to. Yes there are guys that could be fed to Hogan. Not that many got multiple runs against Hogan though. Very, very few could be said to be guys used in positioned to draw especially after 86. Give me examples and I'll believe otherwise.

Man I want to see Backlund v. Blackwell

Those guys werent' just working mid-card matches. Most of them were booked as mid-carders. They weren't positioned as draws. I do think you could make a case that through most of 86 WWF was still booking certain guys in certain areas for regional drawing purposes or using feuds like Valentine/Tito as a front end feud that could draw in big towns on it's won. 87 on? OUtside of some random, isolated instances, not so much.

PM me links to the best Gonzalez matches from 2012...or post them here I guess. I almost watched Travis v. Hugo tonight. Maybe tomorrow