Dylan Waco

My goal is to review that ASAP, but I'm not forking over the cash for it so it will have to pop up on youtube or as a DL first

It is. But NJ heavies aren't talked about all that much and I don't think being seen as better than Hase, Muto, Chono, Sasaki, et is really all that impressive.

I thought Kawada v. Hash was really good when I watched it the other day. Much better than I expected/remembered. And that was in 2004. Hash v. Misawa and Kobashi in all of there primes? Hard to say. I haven't watched a ton of either guy in years. I can't fully articulate why, but I always thought Misawa was a great wrestler but you were always going to work his type of match and he was not a guy who I thought worked radically different v. various opponents. Having said that these are old memories at this point and could very well be off base. Kobashi I could see hurting a Hash match by hamming it up too much. On the flip side I can't imagine Misawa having an interesting match with Norton. It's really guess work and I don't know what to do with it. All I know is that the older I get the more I admire guys who have the innate quality to make okay matches good and good matches great via little things, rather than with huge build and tons of near falls. It's not an indictment of either style per se, just a gradual change in how I view wrestling.

Good post. Maybe I just don't pay attention to modern puro discussion enough to know where the consensus is on Hash. I don't remember him being talked up the last time I was paying attention and I don't think Jumbo was underrated ten years ago, but I get what you are saying otherwise.

Enough bullshit, where do we all think Hash rates next to the AJPW guys. I've already said my piece on this and could add more, but I'm interested to hear what others have to say on that. I would also be interested to see if I'm the only person who thinks Hash adapted well to seemingly random challenge better than virtually anyone from that era. Aside from maybe Kawada and Tenryu, I can't imagine another Japanese heavy from the period getting as much as he got out of Scott Norton or Sasaki. I doubt very many guys could have had that match with Zangiev (Hase would have been an interesting opponent for him, but I don't know that Hase ever knew how to milk the moments like Hash). I know I can't picture any of the other names aside from Kawada working as well with Takada. Not even sure Kawada would have worked as well opposite Regal. Of course it's guesswork and people don't have to take this approach, but when I talk about him being underrated I don't mean "no one thinks much of him" I mean "no one talks much about him" and more importantly "no one talks much about him next to guys who were his peers outside of his own promotion."

I wasn't referring to you mentioning where he finished in the poll. I thought you were going to drop it?

Trying to proove how "cool" I am on a pro-wrestling board arguing about a dead japanese pro-wrestler being pimped as a great one years ago. Feel the coolness factor. Seriously, let it rest. I will certainly do so. You made a hyperbolic statement, I just put it in perspective, then you made it personnal taking about "gimmick" and "schtick" and "ego". Let it rest? You were still trolling me for validation. Just fuck off.

It's not even better than some of the AJPW matches? Jesus Christ I know they are idols we are supposed to worship at the feet of but that's a little much no? It was fun but nothing overtly special. One of the better Zangiev matches. I had it top five on the NJPW Set. I don't regret that at all.

I don't give a fuck about the alleged hyperbole of my comment. If it makes your ego feel better for me to say he is one of the least talked about great wrestlers ever fine. Or are we going to pretend he's a guy who is talked about on the level of guys like Hansen, Bret, Flair, Funk, your AJPW boys, Liger, et? I don't give a shit about "discovering" anyone. If I was interested solely in "discovering" people I damn sure wouldn't spend my time watching matches held in front of 50 thousand plus people, when there are tons of obscure little Southern indy matches on youtube. Glad we agree Hash isn't "one of" the best NJPW heavies now, which was your glorious attempt to pimp in this thread. Now to a serious question from someone who isn't trying to prove how cool he is. Jerry, I think Fujinami is an interesting one. If you asked me to rate them career v. career I'd probably take Fujinami because I like him a lot as a junior and the fact that he transitioned so well to the heavy ranks is a plus with me. I do not think Fujinami by himself has the same aura as Hash, nor do I think he was the same level of big match worker. I haven't watched a substantial amount of 90's Fujinami in a long time, though what I have watched recently led me to believe that he is better than "pretty good" as I've seen some characterize him as from the period, but nowhere near the level of the top heavies of that period. I think it's telling that an awful lot of Fujinami's best performances as a heavyweight were in tags or other multi-man environments. I don't even mean that as indictment I just think in some ways he is more suited to that environment. Fujinami has some great singles matches to be sure, particularly the Choshu matches, but I don't know if I would buy him as a better singles match wrestler than Hash. I'd have to think on it for a while.

Thank you for letting me know what an opinion is. Much needed analysis as always from Jerome. The fact that you call him "one of" the best New Japan Heavyweight's ever in this thread is a good place to start actual discussion about Hash rather than running through the same old "I have liked this guy forever" schtick we hear all the time. Who is even comparable to Hash as an NJPW heavy? Mind you you will have to answer with a dreaded opinion, but I'd love to hear it.

It's not even better than some of the AJPW matches? Jesus Christ I know they are idols we are supposed to worship at the feet of but that's a little much no?

Nice one. I've only been around for the last 14 years. Not that's it's glorious or anything. (BTW, when did I say he was pimped at the level of the AJ boys or Liger ? Oh, yeah, I didn't.) Anyway, Hash *only* finished 24 on the Smarkschoice GOAT poll (in 2006). Yeah, one of the most underrated wrestler that ever lived. Feel the sense of hyperbole. You didn't say it because it's never happened. But it should. Because he's better than all of them sans maybe Kawada

Since when ? The day I stumbled onto puroresu I heard about Hash as being a great fucking wrestler. Even when the New Japan heavies weren't pimped at all, Hash was the exception to the rule because he was working a stiffer, harder style akin to the AJ guys which were the references back then. I love Hash, he's been a favourite of mine for ever, but it's the first time I've heard of him being "underrated". But hey, if people have forgotten how great he was these days, he should be put back into the mix yesterday indeed. If people are going to work the gimmick where they pretend Hash was ever hyped on the level of the AJPW boys or even Liger they are going to have to try it on someone who hasn't been around reading these boards/newsletters for almost 20 years. To be fair it is true that Hash was always touted as the best of the NJPW guys, but outside of your more insulated and puro heavy pimping circles I don't recall him ever getting play as a "holy shit this guy is other worldly worker" the way Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Liger or even Hokuto and Toyota did, and even there I don't remember him really cropping up as a "head of the class" guy. You could maybe toss him in the same category as Tenryu and Fujinami as a guy who was clearly highly appreciated and thought of as a great worker within the circle of fans who are really interested in all puro, but outside of Phil, Dean and a few others I don't remember him ever being touted as on the level of the aforementioned people even though I think he definitely was.

I have watched a ton of his matches over the last couple of weeks and I'm still not sick of him. That is really, really rare as watching guys in isolation is usually something I can only do with my absolute tip top favorites. As far as I'm concerned Hash is an absolute upper tier wrestler. Not sure where I would have him on a depth chart, but I really don't think any of the AJPW guys from his era are clearly better. He has the emotional resonance of Kobashi without the tendency for silliness or goofiness, the adaptability and big shot impact of Kawada and the ace like feel of Misawa. I mentioned this in the thread on Bret, but to me Hash is a guy who has an innate quality that very few wrestlers in history have. Call it the "It Factor" or whatever the hell you want to, but he is a guy who can get over more with little body language cues or mannerisms than most anyone I've ever seen. In some respects he's like a better working Choshu (and I like Choshu more than most) in that he can signal escalations in a match in ways that are not overt enough to feel forced, but obvious enough where the crowd will respond and it automatically makes the match feel like the biggest thing happening on earth right that second. I know Hash has plenty of long matches and the AJPW guys have plenty of shorter ones, but I also think he was able to hit highs in shorter, quicker matches than any of the AJPW guys. That might be selection bias as I haven't watched much 90's AJPW in years and have little desire to do so at this point. But stuff like Hash v. Zangiev or even some of the shorter Hash v. Tenryu matches are outstanding bouts, that I would put on the level of the best All Japan matches not just despite the fact that they don't have as much in them but because they don't have as much stuff in them. I'll keep watching more of his stuff when I'm done catching up on some of the 2012 matches I'm behind on.

Rhino had some fun sprints in the original ECW and some decent WWE tv matches, but nothing on that level or even close to it that I can remember.

The problem with "if you are great when you want to be your great" thinking is that if you look hard enough you can probably find great individual performances from people who aren't generally thought of as being great workers. On Bret v. Han, yes the schedule does matter, but so does the level of difficulty. Han was a master at a style that is far more difficult to work than Bret's style of match. That's not to say Han is automatically better than Bret as a result, but the idea that any solid worker could have looked amazing working the style Han worked is pretty clearly not true.

I think the reason people remember Bret v. Kid so much is that it was worked different than other Bret matches in the sense that it was more hierarchical in form. I'm not sure I agree with OJ that Bret relied on the underdog bit non stop, but I don't think it's wildly off.

I think I am going to attempt this. A part of me thinks the smart road to take would be to tie it in with Superstars. Yes they are different shows and different things are going on with both in terms of over all presentation. But the key is that both shows were the "wrestling" shows where the undercard talent were given time to shine against each other (and occasionally against upper card talent). Honestly, I think you could do two different comps. There's enough stuff there. It's up to Will but I like the idea of both. I don't think individually a Superstars comp would sell. Bundled with ECW? It's a nice addendum that I think could help move the set. Beyond economics I also like it because Christian had some really good Superstars matches while carrying the mantle of WWECW. It's part of the narrative of his run which is one of the things a WWECW comp should capture.

Not goodhelmet and I wouldn't use the word smokes, but I think you could make reasonable arguments for Hashimoto, Tenryu, Kobashi, Kawada, Misawa, Kong, Eddie, Benoit at bare minimum. That's to say nothing of Lucha, though I'm not sure how solid the footage is from that period week-to-week. That also doesn't touch guys who are more controversial though I don't think totally absurd. I think from 94-97 Bret is a contender for top ten in the world cumulatively. Probably even a guy who would finish in the majority of people's top ten for that period. Top five? Much tougher to make that case. If you break down individually by year? I think that's where Bret actually looks weaker.

Hashimoto is one of the most underrated wrestlers who ever lived. I've been watching a ton of his stuff for the last two weeks and he is a guy I want a comp of yesterday. I think he's every bit as good as the AJPW guys. What he has that Bret lacks is the natural presence/innate charisma that makes every motion, every comeback, every facial expression feel like an escalation. It's a trait that is very hard to put your finger on and there are only a small number of wrestlers in the history of wrestling who have it, not all of whom would be considered great workers. I should probably start a thread for him, but I've gotten so preoccupied with other stuff I haven't. Two quick things to keep this Bret-centric. I really love the Survivor Series match with Austin. A whole lot. I don't know if the build to the match and finish was supposed to work the way I have always thought it worked in my head but I don't care. It's a match that works for me on a level that very few WWE/F matches in history ever have. I'm not sure it's my number one WWE match in history, but I had it one in the SC poll a few years back and I would consider it for that spot if I were to ever do such a thing again. Everyone talks about the Mania match, but I think SS is a better match and I think the build to the match is really what put over Austin as much as anything. WM 13 was just the last kick over the edge. One criticism I have had of Bret is that I thought he won with roll up variations way too much. I tend to be a big fan of guys with multiple finishes and Bret didn't have that. He had the sharpshooter....and then a bunch of roll ups. I get that it sort of put over the idea that he was capable of beating you with a hold at any time because he was such a sharp wrestler, but as much as I like stuff like the Backlund match with the turn (one of my favorite Bret matches really) or the carry job of DBS at SS 92 it drives me crazy that so many of his big time matches end on roll ups.

This is very, very true. Shawn's gimmick is "great wrestler" and it's a narrative the WWE has gone out of their way to push. Shawn is a guy who is important to the history of the promotion, but nowhere near as important as you would think based on the way the hype machine presents him.

I think I am going to attempt this. A part of me thinks the smart road to take would be to tie it in with Superstars. Yes they are different shows and different things are going on with both in terms of over all presentation. But the key is that both shows were the "wrestling" shows where the undercard talent were given time to shine against each other (and occasionally against upper card talent).

It's worth watching from beginning to end, but Steiner v. Gallows is on youtube if you want to cherry pick

When I first saw Taker/HHH I thought it was okay, but needlessly long and Michaels nonsense hurt it. I watched it again not that long ago and was actually shocked at how much I didn't like it. The beginning of it is okay, but as it went along it quickly turned into the worst sort of overacted soap opera match. I still think "Old gay couple deciding whether or not to put down their sick dog" is a valid description of much of the match, though I think the Green Mile comp is better - Taker is a decent Mr. Jingles, HHH is poor as John Coffey and Michaels is terrible as Tom Hanks character.

No one is arguing it's a terrible year. But peak does not equal "not terrible."