Dylan Waco

That is an interesting way of breaking it down. To me I think his tag work was really great from 86-88. No doubt he was an excellent wrestler in that era and I have no problem saying he looked like an heir apparent to Ricky Morton. The Rockers are probably my favorite WWF tag team of all time also, but that is really not saying much as I'm not high on the WWF tag division and I think they were just the most exciting/fun to watch unit. The initial heel turn I think is actually really disappointing in terms of in ring work, though I liked the character then and imagine I still would now. A part of me thinks it's wrong to even include 94 in his "prime." I was talking to my brother on the phone the other day about the 94 yearbook. He's more pro-Shawn than I am, but when he ran down a list of guys he barely had Shawn inside a top forty for that year through Sept. I'm not saying others would agree with all of his picks, but if it weren't for the Ladder Match I don't think anyone would feel obligated to even mention that as a "prime" year for him. To me his prime was really the early tag run, but his singles prime was 95-97 (I would be more inclined to say just 95 and 96, but there are things in 97 people like a lot). Again I get why people like it, and I get why people like it more than me. But I still don't think of it is as a uniquely glorious run unparalleled in the history of wrestling, nor do I see it as anything particularly close to that. One day I'll get around to watching a lot of 00's WWE tv again. Maybe Michaels will come across better on the second sitting than he did in real time.

It wasn't done for shock value, he was actually better received at the time than is often thought as has been covered here before, and I didn't reference Dustin for the purposes of direct comparison but rather to point out that he was a guy I think highly of on comparative terms to the standard some believe makes Shawn an all timer.

That's a reasonable point, though I don't think mid-late 80's AWA is the best example of a territory where guys were running lengthy programs v. opponents thus enabling them to cruise control to quality matches. Certainly there was more of that than Shawn got, but less than one would see out of other major promotions. I'm also not sure I agree that WWF was a more demanding style, though Shawn was obviously a wrestler who pushed himself to go beyond your typical stuff from that era. Of course Shawn also took huge chunks of time off during his peak run, to the point where I'm not sure he was even active for half of the 94-97 window we are discussing. It's a good run. How good is really what the debate is about as you noted before. I haven't watched the Shawn matches in a few years, but if we were putting together a 90's WWF Set from ppv I am positive both the Ladder Matches, HITC I (though I don't care for it myself), MindGames, GFBE, The Iron Man, v. Jarrett and probably even SS 97 would make the cut without much debate. That's eight matches and that is nothing to sneeze at. Beyond that you'd have at least the Action Zone tag from tv, but offhand I'm struggling to think of a tenth "home run" match that would be a definite pick. That's not really a knock on Shawn and there are a lot of others I could see getting strong consideration or that I would back myself (stuff like the Owen ppv match from 96 which I like more than most or the aforementioned Sid match which I may like less than others). What I would say is that I don't think it is a uniquely transcendent run and that is where I think the real disagreement is. I'm a pretty big fan of 91-94 Dustin Rhodes and would rate that run above Shawn's from 94-97. I'm not particularly interested in hashing that out right this second other than to say that as much as I like that run from Dustin, I don't know that I would consider it an out of this World, beyond belief, tremendous/on another level run. There are lots of other guys with similar length runs where I think you could find lots of good stuff, the difference is they weren't promoted as heavily as Shawn on ppv, they weren't pimped as hard as the sheets pimped Shawn, et. Shawn being a little shit who can't get along with others is not something I think should be used as an excuse in a discussion like this. On paper Martel had better opponents, probably even in practice. But I don't think it was by a wide margin and Martel didn't have Patterson booking, props out the ass, et. I really consider it a wash in that category. I think that's a really simplistic way of looking at it and I was as big a Hennig critic as you would find on the net until I started watching Portland/AWA. The expectations Vince had for heel work had a lot to do with how Hennig degenerated as a worker in my view, but that might be a separate topic in and of itself. I think the Mr. Perfect era comp to the initial Shawn heel run is pretty strong. Lots of guys can say they have two decade portfolio's to some degree or another. For example Dustin Rhodes does. But there's some pretty weak shit in there also, lots of down time, et. I feel the same general way about Shawn, though I prefer Dustin's highs and think he was far more versatile. Setting aside that the eleven year number was me giving Shawn the benefit of the doubt and ignoring the down time he had with injuries, losing his smile, et. eleven years of quality work really isn't shooting THAT high in wrestling. It's nothing to laugh at. But it's not an insane standard. Neither is 3 or four truly great years.

Glad to see I wasn't crazy for loving this and lobbying for it on the set

I did not know that you could graduate from college and get your teaching credentials in OK in less than a year. Mighty impressive for a 19 year old. Or perhaps: "Mrs. Thompson called in suck today. Why don't you go down to the Exxon station and see if Old Man Richards can spare CP from the lube bay today so the boy can come in to teach the 6th graders." Yeah... that's about as far fetched. John Different states have different rules on this. In SC you only need a high school diploma to sub, though they pay more for those with college degrees.

Tommy Rich v. The Masked Invader I swear I will not be writing a novella for everyone of these reviews, but this is more from the "Hep C Hero" tape so I feel obligated to give this a fairly lengthy treatment. The pre-match here is pretty great as this is a pretty full high school gym and when Tommy's music hits there is an avalanche of children that spills down the stands to get a brief moment with their hero (father?) before the bell rings. Then Tommy grabs the mic mid-introduction and screams something about being "fired up"* before going to toe to toe with the masked man in a face off. Some times these face off's spots come across as homoerotic, but regardless of how you feel about his relationship with Jim Barnett (or Mr. Donnie even), this really felt like two guys who wanted to kick the shit out of each other, talking shit, before they kicked the shit out of each other. Early going is lots of setting the stage/feeling out spots, with Tommy being surprised by a couple of Invader spots, than Tommy reels off his own spots with the Invader complaining about tight pulling and bailing to the floor. These are Southern staples and the crowd buys into them. In fact the fans get reprimanded for throwing crap into the ring at about the three minute mark, which might be a record for match occurring in a high school gym in Griffin, Georgia. Back in the ring and Tommy win's an exchange, but the Invader successfully pitches to the ref that Rich used his mask for leverage and he makes Tommy break the hold. Children swarm the ring and rightfully allege mafia/gambling interest involvement in the match. Meanwhile an old woman comes up to the apron and gets into it with the Invader. Naturally on the next lock up, Tommy takes the Invader down by pulling his mask and we get a repeat of ref breaking the hold, righteous fan anger, Invader scaring children/fighting with old women, et. This gets the crowd really hot and they are literally jumping up and down and screaming at the ref and Invader for the duration of the match. We get a break off of a hold and Tommy decks the Invader sending him to the floor where a fan in camo councils him which confuses the hell out of the play-by-play guy. It was at this point that the Invader started to go to the tights, so I'm going to go with the theory that the guy in camo was part of the ref/mafia conspiracy to screw over Tommy Rich. All the kids are swarming Tommy and the ringside area trying to point out to the paid off official the object Invader has, but the Invader keeps hiding it in his mouth which eludes the searches of anti-Tommy Rich ref. Invader ends up tossing Tommy into the ref, who conveniently is bumped to the ground for just long enough so that the Invader can take over with a loaded mask headbutt. Rich is a fucking bloody mess at this point and there is a great moment with girls coming out of the stands to get a closer look at their babies daddy. Rich takes a huge bump over the top to the floor and there is an even better moment as every kid in the building rushes to ringside to help Tommy get back into the ring. For some reason Tommy tries to come in with a chair, which Invader uses on him and we get the great Tommy Rich blood loss selling as he is hunched over, half lifeless and mentally broken, with blood spurting out of his head. Tommy hits a headbutt to the gut and a shoulder tackle for huge pops, but he's just covered in blood, woozy and has trouble getting up. In a cool touch he wipes the blood from his eyes, looks at it, and then hits a superkick and a fist drop to huge pops. Then he starts biting and ripping at Invader's mask. Tommy is trying to get the mask off, but ends up locking on a sleeper hold. He's putting him out when a second masked man hits the ring. All hell breaks loose as the match gets tossed out, with Tommy beating the fuck out of both men post-match. This was a pretty good match, with a fun post-match. Most importantly it featured tons of blood loss and a ref that was so obviously on the take that every redneck in the building probably egged his house/slashes his tires every day for the next six months.

Have you seen Abby matches in recent years? Really not a lot more to them than Mae Young style stuff. Actually Mae still bumps so if anything she's more serious than Abby

I think Muraco would be a better choice than Orndorff. Mr. Wonderful had one great year as a draw agains Hogan (as far as I can remember), while Muraco was a draw in San Francisco, Hawaii and the WWF. Plus he's had way better matches and more big titles. Muraco is horrendously overrated as a worker. He certainly had some very good performances in his career, but he was maybe the ultimate lazy guy, who was dogshit when he didn't try which was FAR more often than some would have you believe. Orndorff was Hogan's best drawing opponent, to the point where he got two separate runs with him IIRC. He was as big a star in the Southeast as Muraco was anywhere else and while he probably wasn't as good a worker as Muraco when Muraco was in give a shit mode, he was far more consistent. I wouldn't vote for Orndorff, but I could see an argument for it. Unless someone has got some major numbers on Muraco I've managed to miss, I can't see a real argument for him.

This is sort of what I was getting at. Artistically most of those Bret finishes were really good if not great. Professionally? I'm not so sure. Seemed awful fluky for your champ/lead face to constantly be winning in a less than clear cut fashion against such a huge variety of people.

....if we had the footage to prove it. I know KrisZ was talking about working up a results package on Tommy to try and get him on the HoF ballot around this time last year. I'm not even going to attempt that. Instead I'll review some of the matches of on my all time favorites as both a wrestler and a manager. Tommy Rich v. Steve Lawler This project was really brought about because of a conversation with Bix where he was telling me about these Tommy Rich matches I have somehow never seen, despite the fact that they have been floating around for a while and I am a pretty big Tommy Rich mark. The name of the tape these are off of is "Bloody Battles of The South," but I prefer to call it "Hep C Hero." Ideally you would add a semi-colon to the end of that and have "The Tommy Rich Story" as the sub-title but "The Tommy Rich Story" is the name of an incredibly awesome and even more obscure tape that I will get around to posting my review of soon enough. So this will just be forever known to me as the "Hep C Hero" tape and I am forever grateful to MrDavidBix for posting this gem on youtube and for attempting to write a "Monday Night Memories" style tune entitled "Hep C Hero" which will assuredly be recorded by Jimmy Hart in the near future. Anyhow this first match starts off great before it's even a match as the visage of Tommy Rich's face they use as a pre-match graphic is eerily similar to a live action, blonde haired depiction of Bob Dobbs from The Church of the SubGenius. I almost wish he had a pipe in his mouth to complete the look, but in a way I think it works better here, particularly because the pictorial choice appears to have been from an earlier Tommy, in a better time in his life when he was six-man tag teaming random ring rats with Tony Atlas and a very Masked Superstar every night around the Georgia loop. The Glamour Shot really captures the fact that Tommy was once your stereotypical, good ole boy with good looks and a great life ahead of him. Now he's wrestling Steve Lawler in a high school gym containing no more than 200 people. Lawler comes to the ring with no music, looking depressed. My guess is he realizes the gate is shit and he's getting no more than twenty bucks even though he's main eventing. Conversely Tommy manages to get a fucking Beatles-level pop from this anemic audience as he comes out to Wild Eyed Southern Boy, mobbed by fans, signing autographs for heavily mulletted kids (I would guess odds are fairly substantial he may be the father of at least one of them) as he climbs into the ring. He's also wearing a jersey that I can't quite make out. In my mind I want it to be an Atlanta Falcons jersey. The timeline probably doesn't work and the number (87) absolutely doesn't, but I really want it to be a Billy Joe Tolliver jersey. Fuck was 87 Michael Haynes number? I can't remember. It would be nice if I could say it doesn't really matter, but to me it sort of does. The opening is pretty slow, standard fare, feeling each other out stuff, but is enhanced by the shittiness of the nameless announcer who says stuff like "what more can I say about Tommy Rich" about ten seconds into the match after saying nothing about Tommy Rich. When Tommy throws a sick looking punch to Lawler's throat the phantom man in the booth notes that "what's good for one is good for the other" and I literally have no clue what the fuck he is talking about. Tommy does a pretty nice double drop down, into a facelock that he follows up with a solid looking suplex and knee to the face. At this point our glorious announcer gives us the time call of five minutes gone, fifty-five minutes remaining which is classic not only because the time is heavily worked, but also because the idea that this might go an hour is so absurd I don't think even a single one of the toothless women in attendance believed it. In this match Rich is to knee based offense as Lawler (Jerry, not Steve) is to punches. He does about nine different knee drop or knee shot variations in the first five minutes. Then Lawler bails to the floor, before coming in and trying to call time out. Why the hell do you come back in the ring to "call time out?" Why not milk the count? Lawler takes over with a cheapshot off of a collar and elbow and throws some Jerry like punching combos before missing a fist drop and getting tossed to the floor by Tommy. Lawler channels Jerry some more, taking a couple of really nice looking post bumps, with Tommy hitting a stiff chairshot in between them. Lawler is a bloody mess which I believe the announcer refers to as a "slasheration." This is a pretty gross blade job as Tommy's arm is covered in his blood almost immediately. Now I had been told before that this was a bloodbath, but with Tommy doing the bleeding. In fact John McAdam allegedly said this was the nastiest Tommy plasma sacrfice of all time. So I was pretty shocked to see them go into a decent enough parity exchange, finishing run with Tommy locking on the figure four and still not bleeding. Then Randy Rose hits the ring, kicks Tommy in the face with his boot and powerslams the ref who I give props to for taking it in such a way that it really looked like the greatest powerslam of all time. I mean it clearly wasn't the greatest powerslam of all time, but for two seconds I thought it was and that's what counts. Then Rose crushes Tommy's face with a boot shot before getting chased off....and at this point you realize John McAdam was right because Tommy Rich is bleeding out like he just took a shotgun to the face. Really sick shit. This was not a great match. Probably not even a good one. But it was fun Southern wrestling and it resulted in you wanting to see Tommy get revenge. I don't know if he ever did, but I'd put money down that he left the gym with a better looking female than Randy Rose or Steve Lawler.

I am obviously in a distinct minority here, but I was always annoyed by how often Bret matches had non-definitive finishes. That's not to say they weren't great finishes (well some of them). I just thought it was too often

I actually think Nash's heeling at GBFE was the best heeling he did in his entire WWF run and I think the worst part of the match IN THEORY is the way Shawn comes back from the powerbomb through the table. I say IN THEORY, because I think it played out well in practice. Sometimes breaking the rules is the right move - that was one of those times. On the Sid match(es if you like RR as much as some), I thought it was good at the time and good last time I watched it. Never thought it was a great match. Best Sid match I've ever seen? Maybe, but I'm not a guy well versed in Sid matches, nor do I think it is surprising that Shawn would have a good match him - Shawn's style was tailor made to carry a guy like Sid. I DO NOT mean that to be dismissive of Shawn by the way. That's a strength I'm noting. This will seem like trolling, but can I ask why? I'm curious because I have almost the exact opposite view. I actually think guys from the 90's may have had the best of both World's in the sense that they weren't expected to have high end tv main events every week (that started to change toward the end of the decade, but Shawn was gone by then), their ppv main events were generally better built to (though this was not a staple of Shawn's run in 96), and their weren't as many beat into the ground ppv rematches during that era. Guys in the 80's had varying demands on them regarding tv, but they were pretty much expected to put on a compelling match in every town they worked, every night and they didn't have Pat Patterson (or anyone else) putting together their main events, gimmicks out the ass, et. But setting that debate aside for a second, how successful was Shawn in delivering a dozen are so high-profile matches of high quality? From 94-97 you might have a dozen singles matches from Shawn that fit that mold on ppv. You certainly don't have a dozen in a year and I think even Shawn's biggest fans would be hard pressed to make the case that 94-97 was a run filled with depth of outstanding matches that is unique in the annals of wrestling. I do think he has some iconic/memorable matches from that period that tend to stand out a cast a broad shadow, but I don't see depth. I mean I guess if by high quality we mean "good or better" we could build a couple dozen matches from Shawn including tv from that era, but that seems like shooting low. I'm not trying to move the goal post either. I see value in pointing to his carry jobs that were merely pretty good AND his matches with guys like Foley or Hall that I consider great myself. I guess I'm interested in seeing you expand on the broader point about the model, the challenges you think it presents and what you mean by high-profile matches (and what would be your definition of "delivering" in that context)? I don't really want to beat the Zhukov thing into the ground, but since Frankensteiner called bullshit, I will simply call "bullshit" back by posting my reviews of a couple of Martel v. Zhukov matches. I would also add that I think having interesting/good matches with Zhukov is at least as difficult as having a good match with Sid if for no other reason than because of the fact that at least Sid has charisma: This didn't make the set: Martel immediately opens up on Zhukov but quickly gets cut off. Zhukov ends up focusing in on Martel's arm. Zhukov is working a hard head gimmick so a lot of this arm work consists of headbutts to the arm which Martel does a good job selling like death. The arm selling from Martel really makes this and builds the tension very well. Great nearfall with Martel landing a perfect looking back cradle for a nearfall. The heat in this one is really great. Martel finally makes a comeback and hits some great punches. He's got Zukhov reeling but ends up eating knees on an out to inside slingshot splash. Zhukov's manager ends up tossing something into the ring and Zukhov gets decked with it and takes a big bump to the floor with Martel getting DQ'ed. For a match that is 80% arm work from a really uninteresting worker this was WAY better than it should have been. This (the Cage Match) did but was one of the last ten matches on: Martel does a cool rope running spot and dominates Zhukov early. Zhukov is back up to avoid Martel who comes forward with strikes and scores with a cradle for a nearfall. Zhukov gets some licks on and tries to force Martel's face into the steel but Rick manages to fight him off. Martel goes for another rolling cradle but Boris ducks down and Martel hits the steel. Martel takes bump after wild bump into the steel and blades. Zhukov starts biting at the cut and gets a good nearfall of a lariat that Martel bumps well for. Zhukov goes for another lariat but Martel ducks and he hits the steel. Martel back drops out of a piledriver attempt and starts firing up. Martel is pissed and starts punching at the bloody head of Zhukov. Martel hits a piledriver for a nearfall and then picks him up and spikes Boris into the cage on a running charge. Zhukov ends up ramming Martel into the steel almost in desperation. Boris hits a suplex and a standing clothesline for nearfalls. Boris misses a diving knee off the top and Martel wins. Finish did not look all that great and Boris did not have the offense to keep his heat section as dynamic as it should have been but this was still a good cage match and a really strong effort from Martel. Agree that Shawn worked well with Owen and Jarrett, but I'm not sure I agree with Frankensteiner's point that Martel had better opponents. Shawn got to work Hall and Nash who were his buds and always worked harder for each other, Owen, Jarrett, Foley, Vader, Bret, Sid, DBS, Austin, Taker and others I'm probably forgetting. Martel got to work Jimmy Garvin, Zhukov, The Freebirds, Hansen, Jumbo, Bock, Rheingans, Flair, post-prime Race and others I'm forgetting. I really feel like it was a wash in a lot of ways, with Martel maybe having a slight edge at best. I think it's pretty telling that with the exception of Tito and Savage (maybe) every other star of the 80's who went to New York got worse and/or got better when they left. Hennig probably had the starkest and most insane decline considering how great he had been - but I still like Mr. Perfect era Hennig, better than post-comeback Shawn at least on a week-to-week basis. I actually think Shawn's initial heel work is sort of similar to Perfect's in that the character worked, but the in ring stuff left a ton to be desired as neither guy had anything but bumps to work with. The difference is that Shawn got the rocket strapped to his back and was put in a main event position (to be fair Perfect couldn't even draw against Hogan - then again I could see that Shawn not drawing against Hogan either and he sucked cock as a drawing ace himself so..). He delivered. I have no clue if Hennig would have or not, but I know when he was in a somewhat similar position in the AWA he delivered albeit wrestling a much more interesting and diverse way. The last point we just have a massive disagreement on. I love The Rockers, but I'd have to be really generous to give Shawn more than 11 full years of quality work and of that I'd say no more than three or four that I think are truly great years.

When did Shawn elevate Nash or Sid? Sid was over LONG before that and Nash got over as Michaels second, not due to working with him or at least that was never the impression I got watching at the time. Or did you mean elevated as workers? Because while I can see a case that Nash worked better with Shawn I think that was more of a friends working hard with each other thing. And I don't see that at all with Sid. The nature of how big-time the AWA was at the time isn't really relevant and if that is somehow a standard at play we need to start seriously considering what that means for Shawn's work as one of the worst drawing aces in the history of a massive company that is the most successful and durable in the history of the business. In some respects Martel was actually a better ace of the AWA than Shawn even from a business perspective, though both guys were burdened to a large degree by win they came to that spot. During Martel's peak he was working everyone from Flair to Bock to Jimmy Garvin to Jumbo to Gordy to Brad Rheingans to Boris Zhukov. Very broad section of guys. Honestly Michaels is a pinball worker and was sort of made to work guys like Sid/Nash. Martel getting a compelling match out of Boris (actually multiple ones) is at least as impressive to me if not moreso. Of course he didn't have the international platform or the ppv crowds but that is a marketing deal and nothing else. Hennig's peak is really pretty incredible and I don't just mean the Bock matches. Hennig was great as both a face and a heel, could work short underdog babyface sprint brawls with Stan Hansen, wild sprints as a heel champ v. Greg Gagne, lengthy classics as babyface challenger v. Bock, lengthy classics as heel champ v. Wahoo or Lawler, or heel champ v. upstart challenger v. guys like Mitch Snow or DJ Peterson. And he was a great tag worker. Where Shawn was strong he was strong - speed, bumping, athleticism. But he was also strong where Shawn was weak - traditional match structure, working holds/counters, stiffness/strikes, long term selling. The AWA was obviously depleted in influence and strength by the time he got his break but I don't see how that matters

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-__0InHXUG-g/TbGv...969-720-480.jpg

Athleticism and speed were obviously less impressive and those were two things that Shawn had in droves before. He was never a good offensive wrestler, but some of his post-comeback work included some really bad execution. Lot of bad/weak brawling. Bumping was less intense for obvious reasons, but Shawn's selling was always spotty and without the consistent big bumps this was easier to spot. I could go on, but I'll stop there for now.

I don't know what needs to be pointed out. He worked effectively all year against a wide variety of opponents, from Owen to Diesel to Mankind. He even managed to drag a decent match out of Sid. And most of them were straight wrestling matches rather than the gimmick matches he's known for. And to further the Shawn/Rude comparison, he never had a match as bad as Rude/Chono from Halloween Havoc. Those guys are all respected, but Shawn was working at a different level. Which goes back to my point about Arn. I think that being a main event anchor is significantly more difficult than being a good hand or a midcard stooge heel or one half of a blowjob tag team. Others may see it differently. Garvin, Martel and Hennig were all working main events during their individual peaks and Martel and Hennig were similarly positioned

I think to a large extent you are right Ricky, but I'd rather not assume that the people who like Shawn here are victims of marketing. I assume they like him for a reason and I assume those years are a huge factor in how they rate him. I would seriously like to see someone who has a more positive few of those years than I do comp that to Hennig's best stuff for example though that might be something to do after the AWA Set is in circulation

Feel free to mention it again in another thread. I'll start one for it if you like

I agree with this, but I am curious as to what Shawn fan's see in his 96 that I don't see? What do they see from the period in question that I don't? This isn't an argument meant to be divisive or nasty either - I like most of Shawn's major stuff from that period too. I just don't think it's be all and end all level stuff. I would be interested to see someone who sees Michaels as a top tier wrestler run through that period relative to top period of someone like a Curt Hennig or a Rick Martel or a Ron Garvin. All of those are guys who are well liked and seen as quality workers, but for many the idea that they are on Shawn's level would be silly and I think that is largely because of how strongly some people feel about the 94-97 window.

That is actually my point. It's a massive waste of time and space and kills threads. IIRC we have had a post specifically to debate subjectivity/objectivity issues in this forum before. By all means bump it if need be. But there is no reason for this to constantly keep coming up all the time. It's a discussion killer.

I don't think that was much of a personal insult, but this will be - you are a fucking moron. Nowhere am I saying that I am ignoring your point or that that I can't hear it or that I dislike it. I'm saying it's something you have beaten into the ground and I'm tired of it shitting up threads so you can make a point that ultimately goes nowhere. Even your "when I was hanging with da boys...." meme is better than this.

No what I'm saying is that as usual you are shitting up a thread with pedantic nonsense and also as usual you are the first cry like a small infant when someone returns the volley in your direction. This subjectivity argument has been had about twelve thousand times. It's not going anywhere and everyone who posts here and elsewhere is aware of it. It's also a sure fire way to cripple any interesting discussion. Can it.

No I'm not. You aren't man enough to send me a ticket yourself, not that visiting a place you claim to be Hawaii is real proof anyhow. The point here is that arguing over all of this is imbecilic nonsense. Putting a qualifier on every fucking statement you make is absurd and while everyone is entitled to their own opinions, some opinions are pretty stupid. Sticking out your tongue and saying "prove it!" is pretty much the least interesting, engaging and worthwhile thing someone can do on a message board

In other words you can't prove it and you know it.

Jingus prove to me that Hawaii exists. I've never been. 100% prove to me it is real. And don't fucking give me some bullshit about maps or other people having visited it either. For all I know that's mass delusion/conspiracy.