Dylan Waco

I'm certain he wouldn't make my top 100 if it was all encompassing. Far too many good Lucha workers would bump a lot of guys out that made my original list. Combine that with the explosion of Portland footage, someone like Jim Breaks who I hadn't watched at all at the time of the last poll (and possibly other Euro candidates like Marty Jones for example), seeing all the AWA, other 80's Sets, et and there are too many guys who have surged ahead of Shawn for him to even be a strong contender for me at this point. If it was U.S. only he would have a chance as I am possibly the biggest Rockers fan on Earth and I appreciate enough of his pre-comeback work even if I think some of it is really overrated. Still I'm not sure. The problem I have with Shawn is that I feel that he peaked very, very early and I really dislike most of his post-comeback work (I seem to recall thinking he was inexplicably pretty good in 2007 or some random period like that) including a lot of the stuff that even critics of his have enjoyed on some level. There are probably no more than seven or eight years where I would rate Shawn as a good worker and I'm not sure I'd rate him as a great worker for more than two or three. This is really not bad, but I don't think it's all timer level and there are a lot of guys I'd have him behind.

I think Shawn's 96 is even more overrated than HHH's 00 and this is coming from someone who agrees that it was a good year for Shawn. Hennig's peak I think was easily better than Shawn's but I'll save that discussion for the Shawn thread if anyone really wants to have it.

This comes up enough and I know some people hate it but we could at least have a master thread for it and try and discuss this intelligently. I want to broach the topic in the form of a question - if we were doing another Greatest Wrestler Ever poll would Michaels make your top hundred? We can bring the comparisons in from there and talk about him up against other guys, et.

I agree with this. You could point to other examples up until the SD Six Era.

I'd put Shawn above Jericho and Bravo. Probably Hogan. Andre is tougher because his best matches hit me in the gut in a way that Shawn's don't

What are the good singles matches Bobby had in 91? I'm not saying they don't exist but what are they? Maybe my perspective on Morton is skewed from having recently watched a bunch of SMW where he was past his prime and still a great wrestler. To be honest I think Morton laps Michaels about four or five times, but I prefer guys who don't have to rely on props/excess for their big matches and I think selling is the most important aspect of wrestling

Funk's punch drunk selling feels too acted but Flair taking the exact same bumps in every match doesn't?

I was talking about guys who have held a WWE version of the big belt

Looking at that list and without going into detailed analysis I'm not prepared for at this moment I would rate Shawn over Inoki and Mutoh but largely because I have a low opinion of both guys at this point. Not sure there is enough Brisco out there to make a fair comparison. Everyone else is over Shawn, with none that I would even put particularly close to him

Speaking for myself but I have never been quite as high on Benoit as others. I've talked about this with Will before, but Benoit is a guy who I know was great, but I never had a real connection to any of his matches the way I have with truly great matches from others. I could see him above Cena on my list. Anything else feels like a stretch. On the subject of body of work NinLogic brought up, I think Rey easily has the biggest body of work after Flair. I don't even think Bret is close

I don't think Morton or Dundee are third tier guys, and they might not be second tier guys. I'd probably rate both guys over Steamer and Vader and I like both men. Eaton is tougher because he was so great what he did but he has less flashes in a singles setting than Morton. Personally I would rate Shawn safely behind Hennig and probably behind Rude. I don't think Shawn's best year was nearly as good as Rude's best year and his peak run was not close to as good as Hennig's.

Absolutely not. Well not a singles match anyway. The best Rose/Somers v. Rockers tags are at least in the neighborhood as the best Dandy matches...maybe

Seeing someone rank Shawn above El Dandy makes me sad. If we were just restricting to U.S. wrestlers I think Shawn has a better case for being a top tier guy, but I still don't think he has much of a case, even if I were granting him the benefit of my admittedly very major doubts. Honestly not sure where Shawn would even rank for me on a list of top U.S. guys at this point. I am a huge fan of his run with the Rockers, but I think his early heel work was pretty "eh" in hindsight, and while I like a lot of 95-96 Shawn I don't think it is "all timer" level stuff the way some people do - not even close really. Post-comeback he was good for a couple of matches I liked a year, but the last few years I thought there were periods where he was actually a bad wrestler. Not Ric Flair in 03 level bad mind you, but pretty fucking bad. In some ways I think the scope and nature of Shawn's career makes him more difficulty to rate than the hyperbole that surrounds him on both sides

I'm not basing this solely on WWE work. If I was I'd rate Bret above Flair for sure. I love Eddy and won't argue with those who prefer him to Rey. But I think Rey is the greatest tv match wrestler of all time and there is more depth to his career. That's not just because of Eddy dying either. Eddy had more down time/rough patches than Rey even in the relevant years of their run as stars up to that point. I get the argument that Eddy was great at being both a face and a heel, but I think Rey is one of the three or four greatest pure babyfaces in wrestling history and think only a delusional lunatic would even want to see him work heel. Seems wrong to fault him for being transcendentally great at his role.

This is the wrong place to ask that. I think in the post-MNW era Michaels is the guy who has been pushed the most as having a "legend" aura that goes back into that era. He has been marketed as one of the best ever so people see him that way. Having said that I know there are fans who consider him on that level who would object to the claim that their views are wedded to the presentation of Shawn by Vince and co. I would love to have a reasonable argument/debate with those people but I'm not sure it's possible and I'm not sure any of those people are here.

Most of New Mexico got Amarillo tv and that was the only territory I am sure ran the state with regularity. I've asked about Arizona before and it was not really a hot bed. Verne ran there some but not often. Others tried with varying degrees of success but no one broke through. It's important to remember that Albequrque and Phoenix are towns that have exploded in population in the last couple of decades - they were nowhere near what they are now during the height of the territory era. Verne ran the Dakotas some IIRC and Stu Hart occasionally ran some in parts of Montana but really there were no markets in Montana, the Dakotas or Wyoming then that would merit it being worth a major investment. Then again Verne was stupid enough to open up a Western front in Alaska in 85. Omaha had been a very good wrestling town for years and was strong for Verne at points but had tapered off by the time of the expansion era Verne was already in Denver and it was a good town for him. Verne was in Utah. In fact Salt Lake City was the last hot town in the AWA, with some really massive crowd even after the rest of the territory had shit the bed. Totally bizarre to me and I don't know if it is really explainable. Maybe it was the lack of other entertainment options in the crowd. Regardless SLC was a money maker for Verne well past the point where other towns were shit. In fact it's a stretch to call the AWA territory at all. It covered a HUGE swath of land geographically. Which is why it was the base of operations best set up to stop Vince and/or do what Vince did before Vince did it.

My point on St. Louis was that it might have "fallen" to Verne after the post-Sam breakdown which is basically what happened with Vince - it fell into his lap. It could have easily fallen into Verne - or as jdw points out Verne surrogate with vision - lap instead

I really need to get Jeff Walton's books and wish his interviews with Cubeta were still up because he is great on the strength and decline of LA wrestling

Actually yes and not because I don't agree with you, but because that would likely make for more interesting discussion

I'm of the opinion that if Verne had "taken" Detroit (which was a dead territory, that likely could have been revived easily with a quality product), the Bruisers old Indy hub and maybe eventually picked up Montreal the course of wrestling history could be very different. I actually think if that had happened there is a fair chance that it is Verne who takes St. Louis and not Vince as he had points there anyhow and geographically it made sense. It's conceivable that Verne could have taken LA too I guess, though the AWA was never strong in Cali so I'm not sure it would have been worth it.

Speaking for myself but I really think that Savage laps Angle and RVD as a worker. Also where are these allegedly good selling performances from Angle and RVD?

My top ten if we were basing on career in ring work and looking at both version of the WWE/F World titles (i.e. including Raw and SD brands) 1. Ric Flair 2. Rey Mysterio 3. Eddie Guerrero 4. Randy Savage 5. Bret Hart 6. Daniel Bryan 7. Steve Austin 8. Sgt. Slaughter 9. Bob Backlund 10. John Cena Could see a case for Foley or Michaels being above Cena and maybe they should be. Really I could be convinced to shuffle around the top ten a good deal. Only two spots I'm certain of are one and two.

Larry Z/Regal match is the best "just another match" of all time. Great, great match

Highly, highly, highly unlikely.

lol the Mark Henry wars "he can't move fast doesn't do flipz" v. "you are a nazi." Yep. That's the whole spectrum of debate on the matter... On the link rovert posted, I'm more surprised that Babs is a Rey fan than I am that someone from that camp would be eager to see Davey v. whoever.