Dylan Waco

Wait. Dave thinks Albano is the strongest candidate on the ballot????? Does that not strike EVERYONE as a major "WTF?"

It's a shame there isn't a central local for serious HoF talk over the course of the year. Not saying it could offset Dave's pimping but at least the other side could get a hearing with a broader portion of the voting base

I think the SD with Edge did well at the gate. Not sure about rating wise. I also think the SD after Henry won the title did a higher number than it had been doing though I could be mixing things up

Is Cena really the only thing? Maybe, but I don't get that impression. Just a couple of months back people were tuning out in huge numbers for segments without Punk. *************************** Again I'll note that Rey gets moved from SD and the SD suddenly starts to tank in terms of business. Rey leaves promotion for surgery in middle of August and buyrates/ratings start to go down. Now some of that is coincidence no doubt as the timing coincides with botch Punk push, return of HHH, Monday Night Football, et. But I also think Rey is a guy who fills four important roles for the company: 1. Guy used to draw Latino demographic 2. Guy used to sell merch to kids 3. Guy used as established vet to help newly pushed talent 4. Guy used as reliable guarantee of at least one quality match on every show It is hard enough to replace one of those things - replacing four is nearly impossible to do quickly, especially if you are trying to find all of that in one person. On top of that Rey being out hurt their depth at a point when the top of the card depth was at an all time low. Now I'm not arguing for Rey as the WOTY, but I also think it is unrealistic to say that him leaving hasn't had an adverse effect on business. Rey is a guy that can be used all over the card against anyone. You can't say that of Cena. That's not a knock on Cena, but I think part of the problem with the WWE now is they have a very narrow concept of how to use certain people and the guys that can work utility are dwindling in number

Isn't there no limit to the number of names people can choose? Same with WON HOF. There is a limit. Ten performers. Non-performers are unlimited.

Should make the point that I think Cena has been good in the ring this year. The best he's been since 07. Thought I made this point earlier in the thread. Perhaps not. As for moving the needle...where is the evidence? He clearly still sells merch, but so does Punk. The business certainly seems to be slipping, at least in the sense that the traditional ways of evaluating it are not doing very well. I'm not saying Cena should be blamed for that, but is being public face of company on the slide really a strong case for WOTY?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I would take this "drew the most wrestling fans for three straight years" talking point a lot more seriously if it was applied across the board. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't "The French Angel" Maurice Tillet the top draw in the World for three or four years during a down period in the forties? He's not on the ballot, never has been and I will almost guarantee you never will be. JYD may not have been the single biggest wrestling draw from 80-83 (though I suspect he was), but he was a record setting one, far better by comparison to Lesnar when Lesnar was on top of an actual wrestling promotion. JYD then went on to be one of the bigger secondary faces in the biggest promotion in the World where he drew well on top of the "B" shows. He's never been on the ballot. Goldberg was a draw for around three years if you add up his WCW drawing period with his WWE run. During his WCW run he was one of the two biggest draws in the country, during the biggest wrestling boom in the history of the country. To this day he is a name that regularly comes up in my neck of the woods when discussing the biggest stars in wrestling history. He's not on the ballot and likely never will be. 08-10 was not a high point for the business. Perhaps The French Angel is the best comparison because of that. Maybe Lesnar is a better candidate than Tillet. I don't know. But when you consider the fact that he had seven "matches" during his peak drawing years and as actual pro wrestler was not as strong a draw as Lex Luger I have a hard time seeing him as an HoFer, unless one subscribes to the theory that "guy who drew the most over three year period" has to be in. If that is the case Tillet should be in, JYD almost definitely should be in and Goldberg at least deserves to be on the ballot.

If you are going with 20-30 candidates on a final ballot, and people are still allowed to vote for up to ten guys, I really can't see a good reason why the needed percentage for induction shouldn't go up. If that is supposed to represent the creme of the crop, where consensus should be fairly obvious, 60 percent seems awfully low. I don't agree with the proposal in general, but even if I did I would think that needed percentage should rise to 75% - maybe higher.

Totally disagree. I prefer the ballot being bigger for two reasons. The first is I don't trust Meltzer and co. to chop it down to the right 20-30 guys. The reality is that if fthey are working on a 30 person limit for a ballot (let alone a 20 person limit) guys like Edge and Lesnar will be on the ballot every year. Guys like Shibuya, Blue Panther, hell even the R N R's might not even make the cut. You can forget about Buddy Rose ever getting on the ballot or anyone else like that. Second reason is I think the number of names on the ballot helps with points of comparison. At least in the theory it gets people asking more questions about everyone. Whether or not that aspect works the way it should I don't know, but if I was a voter I think I'd find it helpful

Shame you missed the tail end of the McAdam meltdown over at Classics in the Blackwell thread Tom

I'm the biggest Buddy Rose booster there is and I would not vote for Rose over Cena. Having said that the really "amazing" thing here is that almost a quarter of the reader base that voted thinks Lensar is a better candidate than Rose. Frankly Tanahashi getting ten percent is far more ridiculous than Rose getting 14. It is interesting to see Rose finish third here even if it is a distant third. The problem is he'll be in a category with those other two guys and I think the propaganda campaign against him as a serious candidate has already started.

I pretty much agree with this, but unless you have done the research or (as I have) looked at the research, numbers and strengths others have compiled Schmidt just comes across as a name to a lot of the voters. That is the problem with the pre-modern era candidates. Frankly it is astounding how close Schmidt got this year. I do basically agree with Loss as well that the Rock N Rolls are upper tier of the names currently left on the ballot. What are your thoughts on DeGlane as a candidate John?

I don't think Doc is an abysmal candidate but to me he was more of a benchmark candidate than a guy I could ever see voting for myself. Him getting in before Murdoch feels really wrong to me and I'm not nearly as high on Murdoch's candidacy as guys like Will or Phil. I don't disagree with the sentiment on Brock, but it is worth pointing out that Angle when he got in was arguably as bad or worse of a candidate than Lesnar.

That sort of logic doesn't help Sgt. Slaughter much as he is sitting way down the list of candidates this year despite being a crossover figure of some magnitude in the 80's. He was also a better draw than Brock (and in my view a better worker and I'm a big fan of Brock's work). If Brock had been picked up by the Vikings and become a Pro Bowler every year I'm sure some people would point to that as something or another when touting his candidacy. But I doubt he'd have much of a chance. MMA = Pro Wrestling in the mind of Dave and co. is really the only reason he is considered a strong candidate.

Did the Rock's movie success play a factor in his HOF induction? It's hard to say whether or not that was a factor with some voters. Having said that The Rock is an obvious HoF candidate no matter what. If he died in a fire, quit to sell insurance, moved to India to follow a guru, et he still would have been a slam dunk HoF candidate. It is possible that there were some people that voted for him because they thought he was good in Walking Tall, but I think there numbers would be small and I don't think anyone would point to that as the strength of his candidacy. With Brock his MMA numbers would be the strength of his candidacy. Without them he's got less of a case than Bill Goldberg.

Luger isn't an HoF candidate because he's Lex Luger. I'm not saying he should be in or even on the ballot (though I tend to support more people on the ballot in general). But Luger is the kind of guy that you almost don't want on the ballot if you are a fan of pushing the "was a big star for a long time in a big promotion" talking point as something strong for a candidacy. He's not Sid Vicious who is typically loathed by smart fans, but he's not a favorite either. And yet he fits that bill and has a more clear case (or at least as good a case) as an impact on drawing that some others guys who have been talked up and advocated for (Edge, Jericho, Sting, Angle, arguably Michaels and Taker).

Buddy won't get support because Dave won't go to bat for him and there aren't enough voters who are familiar with his strengths for him to have a chance any other way. I understand the arguments against him, but I don't think very many people will even explore his positives. It doesn't help that Matt Farmer who is from the Pacific Northwest has told me flat out that he wouldn't vote for Buddy. I'm puzzled by the RnR stuff. The Brock stuff I find comical. I think he will definitely get a push from Dave. The idea of Brock getting in when JYD can't even get on the ballot is pretty laughable.

I thought the show was pretty awful beyond belief. Again people bitch about how bad the WWE has been recently and I don't really disagree but this show was so much worse even with a guy that I have always been a fan of winning the companies top title. Long boring opening promo, more awful Jeff Hardy trying to look tough shit, awful Knockouts segment, terrible acting from Bisch during the Hogan stuff, and a non-match on a title switch that came off as a joke instead of the big moment it should have been. Utter pile of shit show.

Smooth sailing?

Oh I agree that it is shitty that the newer guys have been pushed so horribly. But at least they are getting main events and it's not the same old guys working for the belts on every ppv and tv show

I'm not going to defend the WWE product over all right now but "hope you guys like John Cena and Randy Orton (and HHH)" is something that could have been said for years now. If anything the absence of guys like Edge, Batista, Taker, Michaels, et. has opened up the top of the card dramatically. The problem is the writing sucks.

Long story but basically talkshoe went weird on us tonight so the fifth show was technically dead air for a brief period of time while Dave scrambled to figure out how to circumvent the issue. That also explains the audio problems.

Dave and I did a quick HoF results show tonight. The audio quality is weak due to the last minute quirks related to talkshoe being weird but I think it was still a really interesting discussion. http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...2658&cmd=tc

Cool find Flik. Dave Musgrave and I just did a quick show on the Observer HoF results. I'll post it over in the Wrestling Culture thread when the link is ready. Audio may be bit off, but it's brief show by our standards (bout 57 minutes) that I think people would enjoy.

The best will be the inevitable "Brock is better candidate than Buddy Rose" comments when those of us backing Buddy start going to bat for him. Edge will have other chances. I think it is insane how split the vote was with so many people in the forties. Slaughter doing so poorly is shocking to me