Dylan Waco

The best thing about the Dragon defense is that it is something that could be said about a ton of different wrestlers who won't even get the whiff of a ballot.

Kane is regarded as a really good guy to work with by wrestlers. Just saying...

I've threatened it, but if Edge goes in this year I will drop a "100 candidates better for the HoF" than Edge post.

I think Bock/Saito will be right up your alley Loss. That match with Rose/Somers v. White/Hernandez is one of my favorite matches that I've watched. It's nowhere near an upper tier match but I loved the way they put things together.

Also as an aside to something Flik said earlier, "Edge Sux" may be a minority but I"m not so sure. Edge is one of the few big name guys of the last few years my child and her neighborhood friends don't give a shit about. My brothers actually hated him for a lot longer than I have. The sports bar crowd around here seems to have been mostly indifferent to him since Lita left. No doubt he's a big star and he's been over with the live crowds to one degree or another for the majority of his run. But I don't know that "Edge Sux" is equivalent of voices in the wilderness.

His best singles match in the SD Six era was...a Cage Match with Angle

Atlantis, Lizmark, La Fiera, Ringo Mendoza, Fuerza Guerrera, Black Man, Mano Negra, Dos Caras, Javier Cruz, Gran Cochisse, Americo Rocca... Mexico was stacked beyond belief in the 80s. I haven't seen half the Lucha you've seen, but I absolutely agree with this. Watching the El Dandy Set and random stuff on youtube and from other sources it is amazing how great some of these guys were.

So Great Workers is the number one criteria now or am I reading that wrong? If I'm not I will start going to bat for a shit ton of other guys who aren't even on the ballot. Re: Flik, it may be entirely true that Edge comes across better in ten years time than he does now. It wouldn't be the first time I have changed my opinion on a wrestler and I wouldn't rule it out. Having said that I'm really struggling to come up with non-gimmick matches Edge was in that I thought were very good-to-great and I am almost certainly the biggest fanboy of the modern WWE in ring product on this board. Not saying they don't exist but none come to mind off the top of my head. For the record his match v. Matt Hardy at Unforgiven 05 in the Cage is no worse than top five WWE match of all time in my view and I am really high on his TLC match with Cena so by no means am I saying the guy didn't have strong matches and performances. I just don't see any way he can be considered a sure fire Hall of Famer and I think here are plenty of guys not on the ballot currently who are as good or better candidates. My buddy Dave Musgrave and I had this exchange at the DVDVR and I think it is a fair one. I think Edge should go in. He has been a part of some key programs in the past 15 years in WWE including the TLC matches, the Smackdown 6 program, his singles feuds with Angle and Matt Hady and especially John Cena. Cena is the biggest star in the company at this point but it wasn't until working with Edge as his heel counterpoint throught 2006 that he really turned the corner. This goes from when Edge won the title from him in January 2006, enjoying a ratings increase showing him to be a draw by that criteria, through the three-way feud with RVD and then the main events betwen Cena and Edge at Summerlams and then Unforgiven, the TLC match I saw live in Toronto that was great. Since that time, Edge has been a key component of WWE as a heel and as a babyface and while his insane amoung of World titles does not translate to the same as in pre-1990, it at the vcery least would be the equivalent of being a three-time World Champion. I don't cite acting ability for him but do think he was a good promo. He has been part of the main event scene in world title matches at four Wrestlemanias. While other matches were pushed as the top draw at those shows, it is still important. And he was a key in establishing the Money In the Bank gimmmick, which while it has had pluses and minuses, is a big part of WWE. I think Luger should go in. He was a part of some key programs over his fifteen year career, including the tag matches with Barry v. Arn/Tully, his widely acclaimed 89 heel run as U.S. champion, the "is he a heel" team with Sting and especially his feud with Ric Flair. Flair was the biggest star in the company at that point, but the Luger house show series was a strong boost to business and even did well opposite Vince in several of his key towns. This ran hot through the Summer of 88, finishing up with a strong crowd at Starrcade and the much more critically acclaimed Flair v. Steamboat series that kicked off 89 did weak business by comparison. From that point forward Luger was a key component of WCW as a heel and as a babyface and while his World title runs were mostly transitional or back-up plans it at the very least is a sign that the company saw him as a top player. I wouldn't call Luger a strong character throughout his career, but during two different periods he was unquestionably strong in that regard and a good promo. He was part of the main event scene at a Wrestlemania and seven Starrcades. While other matches were pushed as the top draw in all but one or two of those shows, it is still important. He was also a key in establishing the bodybuilder look that has become so prevalent in wrestling, which while it is has had pluses and minuses, is a big part of the WWE. Now of course I don't really think Luger should go in. And I could see how someone would think Edge was a better candidate. But what I don't see is why someone would think Edge is a *much* better candidate. Which leads me to ask the follow questions: Should Lex Luger be a slam dunk for the HoF? If not why should a candidate marginally better than him be a slam dunk? Is Luger the cut off mark where guys slightly better deserve to be in? If so, should a guy slightly better than Luger be voted in immediately upon retirement, over guys who have been waiting around forever, and without the time to properly reflect? Of course all of this assumes people agree with my calculus of Luger as rough equal of Edge. And if you don't that's fine. Just tell me why I'm wrong. As for the NJPW comp I'm not sure how it can be seen as unfair, at least in the sense you argue it is. I would venture to guess the great majority of people would conclude 80's NJPW was better than 00's WWE (hell even I probably would) so while Edge has more competition, Fujiwara has tougher competition.

It was in 80. I'm aware of when Martel debuted, but there is no debate that Portland was his first big break and his first run as a consistent main eventer.

I think the problem with narrowing things down with Buddy is that it is devoid of context. I mean Buddy had tremendous matches with Martel and Hennig which on the surface doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary given the talent in the ring. Then you realize Martel and Hennig were really fucking green and suddenly it doesn't across as an obvious in the bag "this should definitely have been this good" affair. Buddy spent most of his time in Portland wrestling green as grass guys, old washed up guys, or limited talents. He really didn't have a Steamboat. He certainly didn't have a Funk. Magnum and Kerry aren't universally praised, but both were far more polished during their runs with Flair than guys like Bret Sawyer or Iceman Parsons were when they were working Buddy.

I'd rather not pretend Luger was "clueless/immobile" in 86. Almost all of Rose's major matches were 2/3 Falls which is sort of what I was driving at. He was having good-to-great 2/3 Falls matches with uber green guys or limited talents ALL THE TIME. Why narrow it down to one name? Based on what each guy had going for him I would guess having a strong 2/3 Falls match with Steve Regal or Jay Youngblood was a lot more difficult than having a good one with Luger in 86. Also I should note that I'm not arguing Buddy was better than Flair for the decade. I don't think he was. But I don't think peak Buddy is far off from peak Flair.

Buddy Rose for one.

Just throwing this out there because I don't have time for a big post, but Mikey may be my pick for best in the States in 95.

That's even more of an argument against Edge than the point I was driving at. There is no distance at all between the peak of his career and the present or none of any note. Voting him in now is senseless by either standard.

I have no problem with Meltzer using his personal rankings to tout Edge by the way, though the fact that he quotes them like a fundamentalist Christian quotes scripture to "prove" Dinosaurs never roamed the Earth is amusing to me. Meltzer's snow flakes are ultimately representative of his views alone. Yes he is an opinion shaper, but citing those star ratings means nothing other than "these are matches Meltzer likes." Citing DVDVR 80's results should have far more merit, not because I am a participant either. But because it is something that is based on a broad group of people with different interest and taste. Fujiwara has something like 15 appearances in the NJPW top 50 as voted upon by 50 people with very diverse tastes. 9 of those 15 are in the top 25. 8 in the top fifteen. 5 in the top ten. 4 in the top five, including the second highest rated singles match on the Set, as well as being a key performer in the Gauntlet that finished first. This is ignoring his Other Japan Set status. Does anyone think a poll of 00's WWE spread across a large base of people would conclude that Edge was in 15 of the top 50 matches? 9 of the top 15? 8 of the top fifteen? 5 in the top ten? 4 in the top five? Possibly, but I doubt it, especially every about the 15/50 metric. And that is ignoring the fact that most "smart fans" would favor NJPW in the 80's to WWE in the 00's by a safe margin (or so I would guess). Fujiwara isn't even on the ballot.

I see your point, but in a way I find it LESS impressive. Yes he has more matches against big name guys than pretty much anyone in history, but most of those guys were quality workers, so it is hardly surprising that he has good matches with them. Buddy Rose having great matches with sorry as Steve Regal, green Steve Pardee, Butch Miller, et. is more impressive to me, especially since he was not as formuliac as Flair when working with lesser talents. Still I agree with the thrust of your point. Having said that, Lawler is a definite contender for one and I see no reason to pretend he isn't. Same with Fujinami. There are others. Flair is not lapping the field.

I thought Edge was decent enough and a pretty good gimmick match worker through 06. Bt late08 the overacting and shitty aspects of his work became all consuming. No problem with spear as finisher, though his looked really weak the last few years

Arguing for it as a point in his favor is intentionally or not a de facto way of suggesting he was muc less likely to blow things then he really was.

Funk is a guy I think had an underrated WWF run. There are no great matches there but he was paired off with people like Hogan, Morales, JYD and Lanny Poffo and I don't think I have seen a single match from his time there that wasn't entertaining. The Poffo match is actually really fucking fun.

Heenan claimed Ray Stevens was the best worker he ever saw. Stevens was a draw, but he wasn't Hogan.

Biggest problems I have with Sabu: Aside from the RVD match in 99 that I really like, I don't know that I've ever thought Sabu was the better worker in one of his truly high end matches. I don't buy the "he blew spots on purpose!" talking point. Actually let me amend that slightly. I buy that he did it some, but I think it's overstated and there are plenty of instances where he pretty clearly WAS NOT blowing a spot on purpose. Why his best matches are really good, his worst matches are really bad. The worst of the RVD matches for example are fucking horrid. I think Sabu was a mess in tag matches. Just seemed to be far better in head to head battles None of that is meant to denigrate him as a contender. He's as good a top ten contender as anyone who has been mentioned in this thread.

I'm not sure I buy the bolded part and I really like Tito. I DO think Tito was a better at playing "fired up" babyface than Steamboat who only occasionally hit the level with that act that you hoped (really like him in the Valentine match from 85(86?) and the Vader 94 SN match to take the two most obvious examples), but if you compare him head to head v. those guys with Tito v. those guys I'm not sure Tito really did look better. Tito definitely had better matches v. Valentine for example but he had a real feud v. Valentine and Steamer's major one off match against him was really fucking good. There is no reason to think he couldn't have hit the level Tito hit if there had been a storyline of substance there. Savage I really like the Tito stuff, but at BEST Tito is even with Steamboat and frankly that is a really generous appraisal. I'm not a fan of The Big Even match, but Steamboat and Roberts did have a match that is better than any Tito v. Roberts match I recall. Tito has good matches v. Orton, Reed and Orndorff but I don't know that I've ever even seen a Steamer match against one of those guys so I don't really have a thought on that. Don't recall either guy doing anything of note v. Honky. Steamer also has the very good Bret tv match as far as 80's WWF matches of note and of course there is the great tag match with them working together v. The Dream Team that jdw and I are both very high on. I could see a case for Tito having the better WWF run but I don't think it's clear cut enough to go to bat for it one way or the other. When you factor in the Flair matches, Steamboat's 90's run (which I think pretty well kills Tito's 90's run), Final Conflict, et. I think it becomes really hard to argue that Tito has enough to be rated over Steamboat.

Someone C/P tomk's post on "technical wrestler" as purely a gimmick term please.

Kind of late to the game, but one thing I want to say for Sabu is that every year that he was really active in the States he has at LEAST one match that you can point to that really stands out as a big deal match at least by my standards. 93 - Waltman match 94 - Assorted Funk and Foley matches 95 - Al Snow Ladder Match, Foley NWC matches 96 - Scorp matches, RVD matches (I fucking hate them, but they are be all, end all in the eyes of some), Mikey matches, et. 97 - Funk matches again, particularly Born To Be Wired, Taz match at Barely Legal (not a huge fan, but again many are) 98 - Sandman Stairway to Hell 99 - RVD match (an actually really good one IMO) These aren't his only good or memorable matches, but they are immediate standout matches to me off the top of my head. When you add the "fun" novelty matches v. guys like Billy Black, One Man Gang, Smothers and others he's got a better resume than his biggest critics (and I am certainly more critical, than supportive over all) might like to admit.

Eadie was fine in the AWA but wasn't around long enough to make a huge impact. His best matches in the company were the main event of Starrcage and a match v. Blackwell where if Blackwell won he got five minutes with Adnan. Both are great matches in my view, but I really think Blackwell is the star of both matches, with Sarge being the second best guy in the StarrCage match.