Dylan Waco

No offense Loss, and I realize this is a site called prowrestlingonly.com, but the conclusion you have drawn here is madhouse liberalism at its worst. Don't get me wrong. There may be an argument for regulating wrestling (though I think the likely result would be the destruction of many,if not most indepedent promotions, and probably a bigger stranglehold on the industry by Vince who is likely the only person who could afford compliance), but "personal choice can result in death" is not a particularly good one. The reality is that all kinds of personal choices result in far more deaths. Are you opposed to driving? Do you favor the return of prohibition? Yes, both driving and drinking are regulated activities..but the regulations have hardly solved the deadly unitended consequences of said activities..activities that are directly responsible for exponentially more deaths than steroids has been linked to in wrestling (or in general for that matter). I've said it before and I'll say it again. Regulation will mean shit without some sort of union/collective bargaining agency/et. that is totally independent of both industry bigshots and the government. As Cook has pointed out before wrestling is most likely a self selected form of employment, that fills up with people already inclined to me-firstism, paranoia and douchebaggry. The conditions make it worse, but the seeds are probably already there. Facing that strong possibility I'm not sure much can be done.

Lots and lots of shit talking about Vampiro, some really good stories about Japan, espcially working with Tenryu and an incredibly disturbing Benoit story.

I remember the first time they put Eddie on the ballot, and Dave did his radio show with Matysik and Tenay discussing the candidates. Everyone was really gung ho about voting Benoit in, but when talk turned to Eddie, they were all against it because "it's too soon for him". I was just sort of staring at my computer with my head cocked to the side like a confused dog. I have no problem with the "too early" argument..."too early" MIGHT have stopped Angle for example who has now shown that he "peaked" already when most people were assuming he'd still be "great" for years. But that argument doesn't really work when you are the guy who put him on the ballot. It also doesn't work when he is "too early and the guy with the nearly identical career isn't.

Eh, why not? PERFORMERS LIST Jun Akiyama - Slightly less shitty candidate then he seems, in that he doesn't even get the credit for the "was on or near the top for a long time" schtick that always seems to work when someone is desperately dredging up an argument for Sting. Still no for alot of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that he is essentially a failed project (though that's not entirely his fault)..also I can't see any argument for him getting in over Taue, and Taue isn't even on the ballot. Honestly, I say Taue is a better candidate than all but a handful of these guys and is someone I would probably vote for if I had a vote. Gene & Ole Anderson - I don't like that Richard Sullivan crying in a seventy page thread brought their candidacy back, though that did lead to other names being unretired, including one that probably deserves alot more thought. Still don't think there is enough information for me to advocate for them, though I admit they are stronger candidates than they initially seemed. Masked Assassins (Jody Hamilton & Tom Renesto) - Don't know nearly enough to argue for or against. Red Bastien - Wierd guy who is more of name than alot of other older guys that get pimped harder. Not sure. Carlos Colon - I don't see an argument for keeping him out at this point. Too many other guys are in based primarily on the strengths of regional superstardom and Colon was a culture icon in a way few of them were. I'm glad he hasn't coasted on, but it is time and I would vote for him. The Dudley Boys (Bubba Ray & D-Von) - I know Loss has thrown out the Hardyz as an interesting case..I wouldn't vote for the Hardyz but I think they should probably make the ballot. I wouldn't vote for the Dudleyz and I don't think they should even be on the ballot..not even sure I would rate them above Public Enemy in terms of "ECW teams known for chucking other guys through tables and winning tag belts multiple times". If Public Enemy can debatably claim to be a surperior team, kinda hard to make a case. Ultimo Guerrero & Rey Bucanero - Don't know enough. Gran Hamada - Shit, I kind of feel like if more Hamada footage was out there and talked about he would be in...but really can't make the case without more footage and a better timeline. Volk Han - I know he was the focus of his promotion for years, was the best at his style, et but I'm not sure hit neccesarily matters....interesting to compare someone like Han opposite someone like Colon and I admit that you can run the Colon case for Han to a degree and argue for him, but it just seems like a guy with fewer career matches than Shane McMahon shouldn't be in the HoF. Owen Hart - I'm struggiling to think of a reason why Owen would be on the ballot and not Scott Hall..I realize you can bitch about this staff ad nauseum to little effect..and really I think Owen is a slightly less shitty candidate then some say..but really he shouldn't be near the HoF and Hall is a guy you could at least construct a shitty Heymanesque argument for. Curt Hennig - Love him, but peak years as a worker were short, he won a dead world title and was pretty much the only 80s WWF heel to tank opposite Hogan. If you couldn't draw with Hogan, you shoudln't be in the HoF. Chris Jericho - Would not vote for him, but I really feel like hes one of those guys that is easily dismissed out of the gates, but there may be more there. Satoshi Kojima - The fact that people will vote for him and Taue isn't on the ballot is sad. Ivan Koloff - I could imagine myself being persuaded to advocate for him. He is a good guy to have on the ballot because it will draw attention to other heels and guys from that era that were forgotten, but I'm not sure he should be in. Konnan - The anti-Ultimo in that U.S. fans won't vote for him because he was shit in the States and is mostly remembered for being shitty NWO Wolfpack mouthpiece...sad because he should probably be in. Karloff Lagarde - not sure Jose Lothario - just seems bizaare that he is on the ballot at all. I know he's not all that popular, but you mean to tell me there are really more guys willing to make the case for him, than there are for Big Daddy. Is he even a better nominee than Lex Luger? Mark Lewin - Kinda surprised he isn't in, as he is a "name" that seems like he should be in..but I don't know enough. Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey & Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane) - I'd vote for them, but I am a mark for Southern tags, think they were innovative, the best unit ever, and about as good a draw as a team wworking that gimmick could reasonably have been. Bill Miller - Yohe and others have made a pretty strong argument that he should've been in long ago. I'd likely vote for him based on the information out there. Fabulous Moolah - No. Dick Murdoch - I'm still awaiting figures on Murdoch as a draw....if something substantial trickles out I think he's got a strong case. Rey Mysterio - I'd say he's as close to a no brainer as we are going to see for a long time. I did a Gordy List for him years back that is somewhere on this site. Paul Orndorff - Glad to see him brought back..I wouldn't vote for him, but I think he's worth exploring if for no other reason than because he is a useful measuring stick opposite other guys..for instance if you plop Paul next to Curt and you are being fair, it's going to be hard to make the case that Curt is a better candidate, even though Curt always has his supporters and Orndorff is not a guy who is exactly inspiring a grassroots rebellion. He's not the new Murdoch, because I don't know that he's as good a candidate as Dick, but he is useful on the ballot for similar reasons. Blue Panther - Really hard for me, because I'm just now starting to dig into lucha and he's been really good in everything I've seen, but Lucha experts seem divided on him and I couldn't see voting for him. The Rock (Dwayne Johnson) - I really want to see someone argue against this. Rock & Roll Express - see Midnight Express Rick Rude - I love Rude but no..Similar to Hennig, though he's a slightly better candidate. Sabu - No, but Heyman voters really should have voted for him and thankfully didn't. Seiji Sakaguchi - No Masa Saito - Man I really, really need to go back and find the Saito tape that the a1wrestling guys made years ago, because it is really awesome..still I don't think he's an HoFer. Kensuke Sasaki - I guess he's someone to consider though, he's not someone I would advoate for. Hans Schmidt - Would have to defer to a higher authority on this. Sgt. Slaughter - Not sure, but if I had a vote I would vote for him just to make sure he doesn't drop off the ballot. Feud with Kernodle v. Steamboat/Youngblood that was famous and huge. Similar well drawing feud with Iron Sheik. did well opposite Baklund. Very good worker for years. Famous crossover figure, maybe slightly before Hogan even. There is alot there. Jimmy Snuka - I can see the case, but to me Snuka is Goldberg with a Ric Flair lenght career, so no. Wilbur Snyder - I've never thought the arguments were particularly strong on Classics. If an argument for an old timer on Classics isn't made very well I assume there isn't an argument. Steiner Brothers - I'm a huge Steiners mark. Have no problem with them being on the ballot. I always thought it was cool that they were one of the only two or three teams who could work opposite tagging singles stars and seem like legit threats. Thought they were great as "special attractions". But no. They aren't an "lol r u kdding me" candidacy, but no. Sting - No and really I think its sad that guys like Todd Martin playing the affirmative action card for guys from there era helped get him tossed back on the ballot. Kiyoshi Tamura - No. John Tolos - No. Enrique Torres - Not sure Universo 2000 - Ditto Rob Van Dam - Last year Booker T dropped off the ballot IRRC. I have no problem with that, but really Van Dam isn't a better candidate, and I get the sense he will stay on the ballot. Villano III - Seems like this should be a yes. Vampiro - Need more info because I have heard mixed things about him..Jericho vicisiously slams him in his book btww. I don't think he has more bad things to say about any other wrestler actually. Kerry Von Erich - I almost wouldn't mind this. No doubt that he was big in World Class and had name value outside the territory. But I wouldn't vote for him. Dr. Wagner Sr. - Don't know enough Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker - No Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods - Not sure NON-WRESTLER LIST Lou Albano - No. Paco Alonso - Don't know enough. Jim Crockett Jr. - No. Gary Hart - This one is interesting and might deserve some thought. Jerry Jarrett - I'm gonna say no, with the qualification that if Don Owen gets in, he's got to get in. Gorilla Monsoon - I love him, but someone would have to make a great argument relating to his capital sports/WWE part ownership status for him to be a serious cotender. Don Owen - No..but.. Roy Shire - Based on what I know and have seen he really seems like someone that SHOULD be in..I'd vote for him. Jesse Ventura - No. If I had votes the only people I would definately vote for would be: Midnights RnRs The Rock Rey Jr. Colon Slaughter I'm almost a hundred percent sure I would vote for Bill Miller and Roy Shire too, though I would feel guilty, since pretty much everything there is based on second hand accounts and opinons. Would not vote for any Luchadores only because I wouldn't want my vote for Konan or Villano III to hurt another candidate that also might to deserve it, but I am ignorant on. If Taue was on the ballot I'd vote for him...and I could really see myself voting for Dick Murdoch, Ivan Kolof and even Orndorff just to keep them from bouncing off the ballot.

I am not one of those guys who believes Heyman is an abyssmal candidate who shouldn't even be considered, but if he gets in, how do you keep out someone like Sabu who has an almost identical resume in terms of both positives and negatives? I realize this another "x is better than y who is already in" thing and those things are kind of nightmarish for the whole process to mean anything, but my point is this. How many Heyman voters were Sabu voters? Because one would imagine that looking at the available facts, those that drew conclusions about one, would draw similar conclusions about the other..yet that is not how the votes broke. It is one of those unexplainably non-sensical results, like Benoit getting in and Eddie nearly dropping off the ballot..how does that even happen? Honestly my biggest problem with the HoF now is that because of "fresher" names hitting from the boom era, we are getting more talk about The Dudleyz than we are about guys like Sgt. Slaughter for example, who may not be a lock candidate, but is certainly someone worthy of a serious, serious look.

I'm about a hundred pages in and so far what really stands out is how unique Jericho was as a guy trying to work a fresh style, in an enviornment that wwas extremely backwoods (Western Canada), in an industry that was in the middle of totally restruturing itself as a business run by monolothic entities, instead of local bosses. So far it reads very similar to a Foley book, though I haven't even gotten to the first Japan tour yet. Worth noting that Benoit is the first wrestler thanked in the book, and it is dedicated to Eddy Guerrero

Honestly Angle is just as bad a pick as Ultimo and for interesting comparisons, Why should Angle be in and not Jericho?

Flairs best friend says he won't

I won't be writing anything like that. It's not really worth getting worked up over. I just thought last night's RAW was just a really bad show that didn't have much going for it. No big deal, I'll go back to watching stuff I actually enjoy. I'll just say that I hope the day will come soon where wrestling can go back to just being wrestling without double murder suicides and Congressional hearings and drug overdoses. Based on the heat Vince's rants got compared to the heat of the near sneak attack from Orton on Cena, most fans seem to feel the same way at this point. Wait you thought the show was bad? The battle royal was very good, Cody Rhodes continued to look solid, Lawler/Booker was solid, Cena v. Umaga was very good, and the dating game stuff while cheesy, gave us some hilarious lines ("I'm in a great deal of pain" "are you mildly retarded"). Even if you hated the Vince stuff, hard to see how this was a bad show.

He's giving the fans what they want and in no way am I kidding with that statement

Ask him about the athletic commission rules in Oregon and how that would relate to any possible broader issues involving drug abuse in wrestling today

The only real solution to fix most of the problems associated with wrestling is unionization/some sort of collective bargaining and either a much lighter tour schedule or some sort of "season" like system. Asking dudes to piss in a cup at gunpoint really isn't going to fix alot and that is the only thing Congress has shown any interest in so far.

Kind of a worthless argument, unless Congress is planning to investigate an awful lot more than steroids. One would guess that all things considered the amount of steroid abuse in other sports would have caused more steroid related deaths by now if wrestlings deaths were primarily steroid related which is the explicit purpose of this probe. The fact that it hasn't tends to indicate that those that point to the totality of the wrestling lifestyle are headed down the right track..and frankly I don't see how Congress could regulate "seasons" onto the industry, or anything else of that ilk. The reality is that Congress intervening isn't likely to do much of anything without significant outside preasure and some sort of represenation for the wrestlers themselves whether it is called a union or not. The liklihood of that happening is slim to none..so really the Congressional card is pretty much a joke..

Mark Henry channelled a failure at the Olympis and the ability to dunk a basketball on ABC sports Saturday morning celberity shows into a massive ten year contract for the E, the majority of the time spent either sidelined with injuries, working in developmental territories or doing a largely comedic gimmick centered around his sexual fetishes, which now looks almost like an elaborate self parody of the wrestling business, and particularly his main benefactor Vince McMahon. When it finally became time for new contract negotations, Henry who was often cited as one of the biggest waste of money in wrestling history and a guy who could reasonably be passed on for renewal, had a three to four month run of very high end performances, easily the best of his career, leading to him signing a new deal..shortly thereafter he gets another severe injury sidelining him for the better part of a year. When he comes back he gets another big push, which includes a burial of the previously protected gimmick charactor Boogeyman, before Henry goes to the press in the wake of the Benoit tragedy, shooting on the drug adicted psychopaths that litter the industry that he has coasted to a nice living on, with minimal effort, work and talent. Awesome

Yes, but the point is that they ran a free show, in a foreign area, away from the companies base. They essentially tanked what could have been a very big gate, because Hulk Hogan wanted to find a way to get infomercial time and a walk up business for his spaghetto outlet store.

Wait, he said Debra deserved it? I missed that. Also, I agree that him ripping on Tony Jones upperbody development in Beyond the Mat was really creepy then and even more so now.

Man, Jeff Hardy is looking real good for a main event run these days

I have not seen any Necro this year, but I would imagine he would be an easy top five candidate, based on last year. Also, and this will sound crazy, I would put Hornswaggle in a legit top twenty five for the States.

MVP is black, it's different. I'm a little worried that he still tacitly defended Liger earlier in the thread, though. These days, it seems foolish to be so hard on blacks while giving a pass to the Red Chinese peril. It's very short-sighted of him. Yeah but the Japanese were on the right side in WWII

ring attire?

1) Cena, mainly because the other guys that are contenders have had more to work with and arguably more freedom in the ring. Cena works a limited range, but he works it better and more convincingly than guys who do more stuff. Plus Cena has taken over where Rey left off as a sympathy seller and expert of timing comebacks. 2) Finlay, as it is really not all that easy to have comedy matches with Boogeyman and two midgets that still standout as amongst the best things on tv in a pretty loaded year. Really, he's not any worse than he was last year, he's just getting put in a different role, that hasn't given him as much showcase time. 3) Matt Hardy, still not as high on him as others, but it's very hard to argue with his consistency, really going all the way back to the Greg Helms feud last year. Realy good in tag matches and singles, and is pretty credible looking and solid no matter who he is working against. 4) MVP, I really could make an argument for him higher than this without much effort as the dude gets his characctor over through his work better than anyone other than Cena. 5) Randy Orton, I don't understand people who are saying he's greatly improved, as to me he has been consistently this good for awhile.

Sad. Kronus was one of the original "OMFG DUDE IS CRAZY AND DOES FLIPS EVEN THOUGH HE'S KINDA FAT!" guys. I was a big Eliminators mark for a year or so in the mid/late 90's.

There is no doubt that you can find alot of bad Taker matches. But you can find alot of bad Kane matches also, and the reality is that in recent years most of the high end Taker matches (and there have been alot) were a result of Taker working as hard or harder than his opponent. Batista is just the kind of guy that Taker seems to bring out the best in..Kane has no record of bringing out the best in anyone.

Undertaker is vastly surperior to Kane in just about every measurable way.