Dylan Waco

I don't think Dave's Twitter has much influence. The Observer does. It's the place people copy and paste all news from, and it's the hub from which hardcore fan culture flows out of. In some sense I agree that his influence is waning, and there are definitely a larger percentage of people who are openly hostile to him now than at any point I can recall in the past. That said, most of these people are informed by the broader culture that the Observer is at the center of. In any event, my point was less that people would just parrot Dave's likes or dislikes, and more that I think people are more likely to give chances to, and be positive about, things that are praised by those with the loudest voices. If people come in to something looking for the good things they have heard about they are easier to find, than if they come in expecting a confusing, chaotic, cooperative, or foreign "style." It's a framing thing.

Oh weird, Mexican wrestling is very popular in Mexico? I wonder why a style of wrestling wrapped up in the Mexican culture and easily understood by people living in Mexico would be far more popular in Mexico than anywhere else. American wrestling has traditionally been far less popular in Mexico, with WWE's tours drawing much less than AAA/CMLL. If there was a Mexican Dave Meltzer type, do you think he'd cover American and Japanese wrestling as much as Mexican wrestling? Currently at least, it seems like Mexican fans are a lot more interested in puro than they are WWE/American indies. Is there some insidious reasoning behind it, or could it just be that there are more working agreements between Mexican and Japanese promotions, so they're more exposed to Japanese wrestlers today than Americans? In terms of drawing, lucha libre actually has a very good track record in the United States. One could point to the success of AAA in the 90s, border town shows drawing thousands in the 00's, that somewhat well known match in our circles between Park and Santo that drew something like 5k people in suburban Atlanta off of only radio and print ads, PWR in California regularly drawing strong houses in the Bay Area that double and triple what the strongest indies in that area typically draw, a group like Mucha Lucha in Atlanta which is the largest drawing indie in Georgia by a massive margin if not the entire South, or even the business spike at AAW that people inside the promotion have linked directly to the use of lucha talent, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. There is probably no way to know for sure, but it's very likely that along with convention linked shows, and legends events, lucha themed shows and/or shows that prominently feature lucha talent draw stronger on the U.S. indie scene than anything else. I can say with certainty that promoters all over the country are very high on using lucha talent, and luchadors tend to do more business at the merch table than pretty much anyone that didn't use to work for the WWE. The point of this is that at the grassroots level, among people who actually pay to attend wrestling shows in the United States, lucha does well. I think regardless of your feelings about the quality of lucha, this is pretty hard to dispute, and I think it's also difficult to dispute that lucha isn't covered with near as much detail or insight by the major wrestling media outlets as you might expect given the close proximity of Mexico to the U.S., and the popularity of lucha in both Mexico AND the U.S. I'm really going a bit a stray from stro's post here, but given the disparity in coverage, it's interesting to me that it's hard to make direct comparisons with Japanese wrestlers, because their presence has largely been wedded to national host promotions. Clearly some of them are regarded as legends or are incredibly popular figures (Liger, Muta and Nakamura for example), but I can think of no framework that has existed for a "Japanese wrestling" themed indie show, other than maybe those shows on the West Coast years ago that brought in Misawa, Chikara's Joshimania event, and the Kobashi v. Joe ROH show (at a time when ROH could still accurately be called an indie). Guys like Dick Togo or Shigehiro Irie have had indie tours or dates in the U.S., but they haven't been positioned the way someone like Pentagon is, and no serious follower of indie wrestling would argue that either guys popularity on that scene rates with the top Lucha Underground talent. Wrestle-1 tried to do U.S. shows a couple of years ago but cancelled due to money and a complete lack of interest. Kanemoto wanted to do a U.S. tour a couple of years back but there was a lack of interest from promoters. You can certainly find more than your fair share of U.S. based lucha shows that don't draw worth a damn, and of course it costs far more to import talent from Japan than it does from Mexico, but none of those things feel terribly relevant in a discussion about the coverage and perception of lucha which to me is more interesting than a debate about why it doesn't rate highly in the WON Awards.

One thing that is interesting to consider is the popularity of Minchinoku Pro in hardcore fan/tape trading circles. While MPro is not identical to lucha trios wrestling, it is close enough, and closer in form in almost every way to that than it is to anything that was going on in Japan at the time. MPro was never as popular as NJPW juniors, AJPW heavies, or even peak FMW, but all those promotions were much larger operations. When you adjust for the size of the company, MPro was actually incredibly popular stateside, producing multiple wrestlers that were beloved figures, and at least one match that was widely considered "canon" for the 90s and an all time classic. One would think that if hardcore fans had a strong stylistic aversion to lucha, MPro would never have been a favorite of hardcore fans in the 90s, even if we grant the point that MPro isn't "pure lucha" (not sure such a thing exists). Of course you could argue that many hardcore fans and traders from that era were sampling chunks of every promotion in Japan, and in that context MPro felt different and thus was the right niche, in the right place, at the right time. But that still doesn't speak to why the stylistic quirks shared by MPro and lucha would work with hardcore fans in one setting, and be thoroughly rejected in the other. Which wraps back around to the bigger point which is that I don't really think lucha has been thoroughly rejected by hardcore fans - it's just generally been ignored. The truth is that in cases where lucha has been made accessible AND has been promoted by the house organs of hardcore fandom it has largely been well regarded and praised, whether it be Rey Jr, Psicosis and Juventud in ECW/WCW, Super Crazy in ECW, Pentagon and Fenix on the indies today, AAA in the mid-90s in the U.S., or even Mistico era CMLL. Regardless of the tastes of any contributors to this thread, I strongly suspect that if Dave Meltzer was praising lucha title matches, brawls, or even old man's maestros matches and they were easily available to the public, the typical hardcore fan reaction to those things would be overwhelmingly positive. Whether or not that praise would reach the level of similarly well positioned Japanese wrestling and why lucha has been covered so poorly relative to Japan and the U.S. wrestling are separate questions, the first not terribly interesting to me, and the second problematic for a variety of reasons.

As to the question "what could be done to get lucha viewed as favorably as puro?" I would suggest that it is the wrong question to ask. The better question to ask would be "what could be done to make lucha more relevant than it has been among hardcore fans?" On that front I think there are a lot of things that can be done, and some things that are already happening. Here it is important to remember that some of the top stars in U.S. independent wrestling right now are luchadors, especially Fenix and Pentagon Jr. who is almost certainly the biggest drawing act on the scene at the moment, and seems to appeal to people that are indifferent to lucha. Stars like this are critical to expanding the scope and relevance of lucha, though I do believe in the U.S. demographic changes are likely to increase the relevance of lucha over the next thirty years regardless of that. I also think a promotion like Elite bringing in top non-WWE U.S. talent is a good sign, and the development of lucha indies that seem to cater to the hardcore fans both in the U.S. and Mexico is also a very good development. My own view is that absent a prominent voice pushing and advocating lucha/a lucha promotion as top tier, it will never get past a certain point with hardcore fans, but the UK wrestling boom has shown that these things can happen organically if everything falls into place.

Trauma I v. Canis Lupus took place in a lucha indie fed, and not even one like Elite that has used major names and recognizable stars even for casual/non-lucha fans. I'm of the opinion that it is a brilliant match, and one of the best matches of its kind I've ever seen. I could name several other people who feel similarly, including a few people who don't really post on this board. It will place on my Voices of Wrestling MOTY ballot, and excluding the influence of live bias, I could see myself regarding it as the number one match of this year, and one of the top few matches from anywhere on Earth over the last five years. That said it is not a match that "most are calling a MOTY," because most self identified wrestling fans - hell even most hardcore wrestling fans - have not seen it. Even if Dave Meltzer or the Torch or VOW or whoever gave stronger coverage to lucha than they do, a match like this would struggle to break out to a larger audience because it wasn't in one of the top promotions, and it doesn't feature top names. If you want to argue that this is unfortunate, or even unfair, I can't say I really disagree, but third tier lucha groups are hardly the only places that suffer from this. Just look at how Evolve is treated in the WON, let alone indie shows like Freelance or CWF Mid-Atlantic which are nearly universally praised by people who actually watch them, operate in the black, and have expanded the scope of their brands dramatically in 2016 among indie fans. With something like Trauma v. Lupus things like the WON Awards and more specifically the VOW MOTY poll are actually a god send, because it provides an opportunity to promote, disseminate and talk about a match that would otherwise struggle to get any traction outside of the small sub-section of lucha fans who pay any attention. I think it's somewhat natural to get frustrated at times when people won't even give a chance to things we see obvious greatness in. That said, as someone who is likely to have 3 matches in my top 5 this year that I know coming in will get zero traction in the WON Awards voting despite being beloved by virtually everyone I know who has actually seen them, I'm far more interested in the thoughts of those people who have actually seen the matches and getting as many people as I can to check the matches out than I am in getting the matches to place in an awards poll that is largely dictated by coverage.

Puro, because the crossover between American/Canadian wrestling and Japanese wrestling has always been more pronounced than that of American/Canadian/Mexican wrestling, and you were much more likely to see a random Japanese wrestler on WCW or WWF than a lucha guy until 1996. Even then, it was always much easier to get tapes from Japan than through Mexico. I assure you, it had nothing to do with me thinking Mexico was poor and dirty and unworthy of my time. Sorry that I hate arm drags, not Mexicans. If only I could fit into this much deeper philosophical/racial box that non-lucha fans have to go into here. Mascaras probably a bigger star stateside than any "puro" worker before 96.

I think accusing people who don't like a very specific style with its own internal logic, bumping, and selling style that doesn't really exist anywhere else as being racists who dislike the culture of the country of origin for the style because it is poor and dirty is not the best place to start. Since I think both Kenny Omega and Elgin suck (especially Elgin), I wonder if that means I dislike Canadians and Canada because people are nice and it is cold there. Disgusting. I wasn't saying I agreed with Parties, was looking for a specific answer to the questions I asked.

Here are some questions - is it possible to investigate why a certain style, wrestler, et. isn't as popular as another style, wrestler, et. without f condescension? Is it ever relevant to look at cultural, social, political, or contextual issues to explore these questions?

He's not deflecting. He's illustrating that a claim you made above is demonstrably false as reflected in your own behavior. Edit: Having said that, I do agree that it largely doesn't matter if you are guilty of the things you claim lucha fans routinely do.

My own view is that lucha is more ignored by the major outlets than it is rejected, casually dismissed, et. I suppose you could argue that ignoring it is akin to casual dismissal, but to me it's a different thing. I do think that it reflects very poorly on certain historical projects, or even awards processes, for lucha to be routinely ignored the way it usually is by almost all of the house organs (PWI, Observer, Torch, et.), but that shouldn't be mistaken as me thinking it should be viewed uncritically. I just think it's telling to look at WON Awards, the WON HOF, or even just general historical research trends and see how lucha is treated vis a vis Japanese and U.S. wrestling

If anything Twitter is filled with more outright burials than any message board. It's not even close.

The bolded statement is nonsense and shouldn't be treated seriously by anyone.

All of this is true It may be true, but it also ignores context. When the leading voices in wrestling media are trumpeting Tanahashi as one of the greatest wrestlers of all time, there is a "industry standard" of sorts being set that people are going to react to. I'm largely uninterested in discussing Tanahashi at this point, and am happy to concede that at times I've been harder on him than he probably deserved. But Tanahashi also is the beneficiary of a narrative in a way that lucha isn't, or even other Japanese workers aren't. Whether it is fair for people to react to the popular/loudest voice take, and not the match is a separate question, but I think it's something that is a natural response for a lot of people even when they are actively trying not to.

Lupus v Trauma is one of the best brawls ever. DIY v Revival is the best WWE tag ever and one of the best tags ever. SCI Final is the best live experience I've ever had at wrestling and the best multi-man match I've ever seen. All three are so hard to rate to me that I don't really know what to do with it.

One thing I would say is that I think it's possible that Japanese wrestling is easier to get into as a tween/teen, and lucha is easier to get into as a younger child. In most cases Western fans who get into Japan are getting into it through tape trading/smart fan culture/et. Basically things that come about when you are in the 11-18 age group. To a degree I'm kind of an exception to that (I'll address this if asked but it's not really relevant), and I can think of maybe one other, but this seems to be the norm. I think at one point Japanese wrestling really appealed to traditional ideas about masculinity in a much more visceral way, while also coming across as something exotic without being radically different from the norm, and that's something that seems likely to appeal to a lot of people in that age bracket With lucha I've noticed that when I'm watching something and younger children are around they are FAR more likely to be interested in lucha than they are Japanese wrestling, or in many cases U.S. wrestling even with the language barrier. I suspect this is largely tied to the aesthetics of lucha, but I can't say for sure. It's just a consistent theme I've personally seen, and there are probably a dozen or more lucha fans I know who got into it as younger kids which makes me wonder if there is something to the argument that age of exposure plays a role in whether or not people "get" it.

My advice is to watch what you want in any case. I still watch pimped Japanese matches, but I gave up on watching all of New Japan at the mid-year as I found the G1 tiresome, and chalk full of wrestlers I either didn't care about, or actively dislike (by contrast, I really enjoyed the BOSJ). I gave up watching all of CMLL because it's not a well booked enough/interesting enough promotion to watch religiously with so many other options available. I haven't watched a Raw in over three months. Despite this I've watched as much wrestling this year as I have any year because there is a ton of great indie wrestling I can watch that is easily available online.

There were some points within this thread itself where it might make some sense for you to comment, Dylan, for instance the more cultural issues, some of which you (along with Herodes) raised. It certainly doesn't do the board good if people don't follow up with engagement. If there are things to follow up upon (outside even what's been raised in this very thread, which I think is a lot even past the initial question), follow up. I've largely said my piece on those things. I'm not above engaging on the subject further, but I'm not sure where to begin, nor am I sure I care enough about the subject at this point to write on it at length. You don't care about the imperialism/hegemony arguments that were so haughtily thrashed and dismissed in this thread by certain people? Not enough to engage them at this point.

It doesn't have to be about that. It leads to more interesting discussion from my perspective, but people can and should watch wrestling for whatever reason appeals to them.

There were some points within this thread itself where it might make some sense for you to comment, Dylan, for instance the more cultural issues, some of which you (along with Herodes) raised. It certainly doesn't do the board good if people don't follow up with engagement. If there are things to follow up upon (outside even what's been raised in this very thread, which I think is a lot even past the initial question), follow up. I've largely said my piece on those things. I'm not above engaging on the subject further, but I'm not sure where to begin, nor am I sure I care enough about the subject at this point to write on it at length.

I don't want a new narrative. I just want established narratives to be thought about critically. You can think about an established narrative critically and still conclude that it's right, or most right, or right enough.

The GWE exposed fissures that were already present. There are lots of interesting things that could be thought about looking at the results, and looking at my own ballot now - especially after the year that was 2016 - has me asking lots of questions about my own process, the role myth/narratives play in how we think about wrestling, et. Whether it was good or bad for the board depends on whether or not you think honesty and transparency is a good thing for community.

One other thing of note - this year has been a great year for "rookies" in the Meltzer since and almost in the literal since. Riddle, Rush, Allin, Nomura, and even Jimmy Lloyd have all had really strong years, and come across as totally different and unique in their respective environments. Riddle and Rush in particular have probably had two of the best rookiesh years in wrestling history.

Was a great year for indie wrestling. I haven't cared this little about the WWE in over a decade, my interest in lucha is down some, and my interest in Japan has sort of leveled off at "I'll watch what is pimped, and an occasional full show" level. But the indies have been red hot. With the exception of AJ, and depending on how you want to view the Revival, I could probably do a top fifteen or twenty workers of the year that is nothing but indie workers and not feel I was slighting anyone.

Matt - I thought the match was brilliant.

The issue isn't Sting in a vacuum, but rather Sting on the heels of rules changes designed to help get modern era candidates in, last years results, et. To me Sting represents the utter rejection that research matters at all, as he is the ultimate perception v reality candidate. I don't know if I will continue to send in a ballot or not, but my days of focused research based around the WON HOF are likely over. It's a complete waste of time and effort, and I have too many interesting and rewarding projects going on to burn my time on it.