BillThompson

This where I side with Dylan, because I don't think it's asinine. Wrestling is wrestling, and wrestlers are wrestlers. There's no reason the women in the WWE shouldn't be compared to other female wrestlers the world over. If people aren't making such a comparison and are cutting the WWE women slack, that's unfair to them and is probably why they do get away with their less than stellar moments.

Both. Does Finlay have a great track record as an agent? del Ray does, her work in NXT is evidence of that. And Emma is possibly the most talented women on their roster, aside from maybe Sasha Banks, and when given the chance she always shines.

Paige isn't a great worker, but she's a good worker who has the potential to be great. And c'mon Dylan, burying someone after one bad match (which I haven't seen yet so I can't comment on if I agree/disagree with your opinion on this one match)? We've seen a body of work from Paige where she's shown that she is good, but also young and prone to having deer in the headlight young worker moments. Truth is she should still probably be in NXT, but agaain I wonder how much all of the women looking a bit off in WWE is due to del Ray being the agent for the NXT matches and not the main roster ones?

But he never admitted it publicly, that's huge for a gay person. I've known two people in my life who killed themselves over the struggle to admit they were gay. Didn't matter that everyone in their inner circle knew they were gay, or that in the case of one of them we had met a couple of her girlfriends over the years. They had never outright told us and admitted to the world that they were gay, the weight of "officially" coming out was too heavy for them to take. I've read too many notes from gay people over the years that detail nodding/laughing at gay jokes being told by others and then crying later over the same jokes when they were finally alone. It possibly being a rib doesn't excuse the behavior just like it doesn't excuse Dennis Condrey orally raping Phil Hickerson for the sake of a rib. This is a part of wrestling culture and fandom that really needs to change, and sadly it appears that it hasn't. That's all I have to say on this matter. I said earlier that I didn't want to get into it to the point where we were in non-wrestling territory, and that's the point the conversation has reached.

He never admitted it, that's the important part for him as a gay person. Everyone in the world can know, but if he hasn't come out and admitted it to the people in his community them using what they know about him is even worse for him to have to deal with.

If you're equating gay with having a foot fetish or liking big girls then there's really no point in continuing this conversation.

Man, you would have HATED stand-up comedy in the 80's! I'll be clear here, I have no problem with anything being used as humor. The key is to straddle the line. When Louie CK jokes about homosexuality there's no sense of malice behind his jokes. He's an artist using his art to explore a topic and the humor that can be found in it. JR is a homophobe making common denominator gay jokes because he thinks it's okay to make fun of the only gay man he probably knows.

He would have done one because it was his job, because to everyone he denied that he was gay, and because being seen as not being one of the boys was not something he could handle. It's no different than when the gay worker in the office turns his/her back to gay jokes and such, making waves can bring about more problems/pain for them and thus they avoid it.

I'm not really going to get into it Loss, because it would take us way too far into non-wrestling territory, but I the "it was a different time" defense is never acceptable when it comes to something like gay bashing.

Ah, so some light hearted gay bashing then, that's perfectly acceptable I guess.

It's reprehensible gay bashing is what it is, doesn't matter if it was meant to be a rib or not. I'm sure that Patterson enjoyed JR making fun of him or being gay week in and week out, found it very, very funny.

Posted about this on Twitter earlier, but I can't think of anything that makes JR look worse than his rampant homophobia directed towards Pat Patterson in late 90s WWF. Every show that Patterson is on during the Attitude Era contains at least one JR gay joke at Patterson's expense. I'm sure JR thinks he's being hilarious, and so does McMahon probably, but it's cringe inducing hate speech that JR is pumping out as the babyface voice of the company.

I don't really get how to break up quotes on this forum, so I'm going to start by replying to Dylan in chunks. Chessman - There is the Villano match, but I also liked him a lot in the Rey de Reyes semifinal match, and I loved what he did specifically in a six man I saw from 02-22 with him, Daga and Pentagon Jr. versus Australian Suicide, Jack Evans and Angelico. Chessman will start a trend of a wrestler I talk about having maybe one, or none, elite/great matches, but doing a lot of work in matches that aren't elite where I still thought the wrestler was putting in an elite performance. Rollins - He's someone I struggle with. I haven't liked anything about him since the turn, and even before that I felt he was by far the worst of the Shield. My issue is with how contrived a lot of his offense seems and how I feel he still hasn't quite mastered when and where to bust out his high spots. Hechicero - This is simply because I haven't seen anything from him since, I believe, March. I love what he does, but my YouTube Watch Later pile is full of matches from him I have yet to get to. Cole - He's a guy who I think presents just as solid of a persona as he does wrestling skill. He has skills I like, and the work I've seen him do in RoH this year has been really great. Even in matches that suffered from RoH storytelling the way he carried himself and presented his character impressed the hell out of me. LuFisto - I really enjoyed that Athena match, when I give it another watch I wouldn't be surprised if it moved up into elite status. Her work in a tag match from CZW's Prelude to Violence was really nifty, and she had another match with Athena this year that I loved. I also really liked her work against Sweet Cherrie from a 02-22 match for what I believe was a GEW show. Tanaka - I don't think you've really missed anything. He hasn't been in any matches I thought were great, but he's probably been the most consistent wrestler I've seen so far this year. I've seen him in a handful of tag matches from Japan, and in every one he brings the same crispness and level of intensity, and I felt for maintaining such a high level regardless of opponent, promotion, or event he belonged in my top 50. Henry- He's on here mainly thanks to him being really good in every match I've seen and having what I think is a borderline great match on Main Event with Dean Ambrose. I love Ambrose, but that match is a prime example of how great Henry has gotten as a wrestler. He hasn't had anything else that's come close to that match, but regardless his selling this year has really sold me on the guy as a top 50 talent. Emma - Her match with Paige from Arrival is the best WWE women's match of the year, a really good match period, and she's another example of someone who presents her persona in a manner I find interesting to watch. She's in on the strength of her NXT work mainly, but whether in a singles match or in tag matches I think she's been great in everything she's done this year in NXT. Hashimoto - His single versus Kanemoto from earlier in the year is a great grumpy old guy and petulant young guy beating the crap out of each other match. I've also liked a number of his Hashimoto/Hashimoto tags, and his single against Sato from 02-26 is a great showcase for how fun his penchant to beat the shit out of people can be. Volador - The La Sombra match from 04-05, their rematch from 06-06, his 01-19 match versus Averno (which I consider great), and a handful of six man tags where his work especially impressed me is what got him this spot. Averno - The aforementioned Volador Jr. match is a MOTYC for me. and he had a handful of six man tags from CMLL where I thought he was impressive. However he probably got this high because of his AAA work, where the matches haven't been that good but he has shined. I know people will say it's not that hard to look great when you're facing Psycho Clown, but gosh darn did Averno look great trying to get good stuff out of the likes of Psycho Clown. Fuego - Yep, the CMLL Fuego. Where you see a guy being carried I saw Fuego more than holding his own and having really fun matches with Virus where he managed to put his own mark on the match. Although I will grant you that I totally forgot about Virus, he's easily should have been a top 20 guy, maybe even a top 10. ADR - When he's been on Superstars or Main Event I think ADR has been a highlight of the show. He's had a lot of crap to work with this year but I felt he always made the best of said crap. I recall watching him versus Batista and thinking, "Man, Batista really doesn't give a damn, and ADR has no reason to care but he's really trying and actually getting some neat stuff out of Batista in the process." Same thing goes for any time ADR has been involved in a multi man match. The matches themselves were never anything special, but his work in this matches has been, especially the way he can pull off so many kicks and I never get tired of them. What you say about Sheamus later on is an apt description of what I think about ADR. Banks - Track down anything she's done in NXT. She's always a highlight of any match she's in. She's another one who hasn't been in anything I would consider great, but she's had a lot of good matches, including a very good one against Bailey from the title tournament. I think Banks is the woman in the WWE with the most potential. She's progressively getting better at all aspects of wrestling, from her in-ring work to the way she presents her character. Not being fake is a big thing for me, and I believe that Sasha thinks she is a BOSS, and she carries herself like one, win or lose. 911 - Definitely check out his match versus Golden Magic from IWRG earlier in the year. H'e been really good in a handful of tags I've seen, but in the Magic match he really puts on a fabulous dickish rudo performance while at the same time being a top flight base for all of Magic's flying. Sheamus - I'm not sure why, but I always feel something is missing from his work in the ring. He can go, and he's as high as he is because I respect the quality work he puts in. However, I always feel like there's something missing from every one of his matches, and I can't put my finger on what but that's why he's not higher. Titan - I think he's a great flyer, and while he has been helped by favorable opponents he's been in top MOTYC's and been great in both of those matches. Tajiri - I'll fully admit this is a lot of my bias coming through. I haven't seen any Tajiri for years now, and when I started watching some of his 2014 stuff I fell in love with him all over again. This may not be a strong year for him, but watching him do his thing has been a joy, kind of like discovering something awesome all over again. Lovelace - She's her because of her bumping. People may scoff but I think she's the bets bumper in the world right now. She makes me believe that she's near death in every match in every move that's supposed to be a death move. She also has a fabulous persona, and she's really good at other facets of in-ring besides just bumping. I'd highly recommend any of her inter-gender stuff from this year to see why I think so highly of her bumping. On the first page of a YouTube search for "Heidi Lovelace 2014" there are also a few sub-5 minute matches that show how she can get her stuff in during a short amount of time and still make her opponent look good. She also has a couple of longer matches in that search versus Sparx and Sixx that I think are very good. Titus - You're actually the guy who turned me on to him, and I've come to really like the work he puts in. Superstars has kind of become his playground and I always look forward to his matches because I know he's going to try his darndest, and that if he would just get a push he could be seen by everyone for thegreat worker he's become. Hardy - He's always been a personal favorite, but I do think he's been top 10 this year. The OMEGA tag versus the Briscoes is great, and I think he's the bets performer in that match. He's also been super great at being a heel in RoH, and I love that so many RoH fans struggle with the heel character he's presenting and don't realize that they hate him for all the reasons that character wants them to hate him. Basically, I've seen close to ten Hardy matches this year and he's always been the best aspect of every match. Casas/Bryan - These two can be presented together because they are so high based on the first months of the year. Both of them will probably fall by the end of the year (Bryan definitely, Casas probably unless he picks up his game) but I really love what both men did up until around the end of March. Goldust - The Main Event tag match he was in with Cody versus the Real Americans is a MOTYC. That's his lone great match though, but as a performer I think he's taken his game to a whole nother level this year. He's the best hot tag in the business, he's a forty something dude who flies around the ring like a 20 year old, and his timing is insane. Truth be told more than anything his sense of timing is why he's so high. The way he places his comebacks, moves, tags, and so forth within his matches are the very best of wrestling to me. Thatcher - You and I have talked about him before, but everything he does is the awesome sauce for me. He's turned wrestling back into what I like most, a struggle for control. Everything he does is done so easily and effortlessly, but he manages to make it look like it takes supreme effort and is the most difficult thing in the world. He's pretty much the king of the less is more approach, and when you add him being in my current MOTY into the mix you get him as the best wrestler in the world. Virus is a shameful omission. I still have yet to see any Gulak, and I've seen very little Cavernario. Actually, same goes for most guys on your list. Th exceptions would be The Usos who I'm not super high on. They are good wrestlers, but they have a manufactured tint to their matches that annoys me, like an awkwardness that I can't get past. I am high on Wyatt, he just missed my list. Barrett almost made the list too, but he didn't do enough before the injury to make it. That's all I have for now, will respond to others in the future.

Just letting you know Dylan that I'm not ignoring your response, but it may be a day or so before I'm really able to dig in and respond to your post. Also, if I haven't responded by a week just hit me up on Twitter, if you can remember, because I'm working a 126 hour shift coming up so there's a chance I might completely forget about this.

Jeff's been okay, I certainly haven't found him terrible, but he's only really shined in tag matches with Matt, where Matt was still by far the better performer.

I think Matt's resurgence on the indies is being overlooked by most people. He's been great in every match I've seen, and a few of the matches themselves have been great.

What puzzles me is why so many industry guys are willing to ignore that aspect of Shawn (along with his terrible selling and some other aspects) while they proclaim him as the best "professional" wrestler they ever saw.

Dylan suggested I start a topic, so here it is, Here's the list, feel free to mock afterwards, or to move this to its own thread if it spawns any actual discussion, 50. Akebono 49. Seth Rollins 48. Dolph Ziggler 47. Zack Sabre Jr. 46. Chessman 45. Adam Cole 44. Cedric Alexander 43. LuFisto 42. Hechicero 41. Masato Tanaka 40. Mark Henry 39. Rey Escorpion 38. Tomoaki Honma 37. Kevin Steen 36. Emma 35. Tyson Kidd 34. Shaun Tempers 33. Volador Jr. 32. Mark Briscoe 31. Kazuki Hashimoto 30. Christian 29. Averno 28. Roman Reigns 27. AJ Styles 26. John Cena 25. Fuego Guerrero 24. Alberto del Rio 23. Shinsuke Nakamura 22. Jay Briscoe 21. Biff Busick 20. 911 19. Sasha Banks 18. Sheamus 17. Charles Lucero 16. Titan 15. Tomohiro Ishii 14. Heidi Lovelace 13. TAJIRI 12. Rush 11. Luke Harper 10. Dean Ambrose 9. Titus O'Neill 8. Cesaro 7. Sami Zayn 6. Matt Hardy 5. Goldust 4. Chris Hero 3. Daniel Bryan 2. Negro Casas 1. Timothy Thatcher

Here's the list, feel free to mock afterwards, or to move this to its own thread if it spawns any actual discussion, 50. Akebono 49. Seth Rollins 48. Dolph Ziggler 47. Zack Sabre Jr. 46. Chessman 45. Adam Cole 44. Cedric Alexander 43. LuFisto 42. Hechicero 41. Masato Tanaka 40. Mark Henry 39. Rey Escorpion 38. Tomoaki Honma 37. Kevin Steen 36. Emma 35. Tyson Kidd 34. Shaun Tempers 33. Volador Jr. 32. Mark Briscoe 31. Kazuki Hashimoto 30. Christian 29. Averno 28. Roman Reigns 27. AJ Styles 26. John Cena 25. Fuego Guerrero 24. Alberto del Rio 23. Shinsuke Nakamura 22. Jay Briscoe 21. Biff Busick 20. 911 19. Sasha Banks 18. Sheamus 17. Charles Lucero 16. Titan 15. Tomohiro Ishii 14. Heidi Lovelace 13. TAJIRI 12. Rush 11. Luke Harper 10. Dean Ambrose 9. Titus O'Neill 8. Cesaro 7. Sami Zayn 6. Matt Hardy 5. Goldust 4. Chris Hero 3. Daniel Bryan 2. Negro Casas 1. Timothy Thatcher

It will be coming at you on Twitter in a bit, and then I'll post the list here as well.

I'm thinking of putting together a list of the top 50 wrestlers in 2014 so far.

Overrated - I want to say Shawn Michaels, because I've really come to think very little of him as a worker. He's essentially an early version of Randy Orton, perfectly serviceable singles wrestler who fails to deliver when he has to carry the match or it's not a gimmick match. That's too easy though, so I'm going to say Paul Heyman, as both a promoter and an on-air talent. Not only did ECW do terrible business, but I find so much of their product and his booking decisions horrendous. As an on-air talent he can talk, but how often does he really help his charges? He did back with the Alliance, I'll give him that. But modern Heyman isn't really needed for Brock, and he did nothing at all to help either Axel or Cesaro. Underrated- This is a tough one because there are plenty of workers I consider underrated. But, I'm not sure if me thinking they are underrated actually jives with them being underrated online. I'll say Jerry Lawler. There are certain pockets of people that love the guy and have discovered his work and why he's one of the best of all time. But, there are far more people who seem to dismiss him as a guy who could never wrestle.

I think the problem is that we're discussing Flair's 16 title reigns as if they're a great accomplishment. All those reigns represent to me is the weakness of modern booking and the inability to provide consistent champions. I'll take a guy with three reigns of around a year a piece over what Cena and Flair have done.

I think the lack of content is a problem, mainly due to the need for diversified content that I've written about a bunch. I don't expect everything up, that's just foolhardy. But they do need to supplement the new content (Main Event, Countdown, Superstars, NXT, PPVs) with a steady stream of old content being added. Trickling in the Raw's is fine, and it would be fine if they did that with everything. But, there needs to be a plan in place to add this content and there doesn't appear to be in any way shape or form. Instead it's as if someone goes, "Let's add ECW Hardcore TV #92 and 122 this week, that sounds like a plan." That's just not going to cut it, especially when the key to any streaming service is diversified content (and in a wrestling stream diversified content that makes sense chronologically).

That requires planning and forethought. Sadly, as much as I like the Network, so far it seems as if whoever is putting content up has no plan in mind or forethought at play.