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Dead serious. All four guys made my list too. I just wish I'd had the guts to put them in the order you did.

I haven't always been nice to Panther, so let me say that this takedown of Kato Kung Lee and the followup onslaught of headbutts was one of the coolest and most memorable things I've ever seen him do.

Jerry Estrada, Blue Panther and Megatron vs Centurion Negro, Mascara Sagrada and Panterita del Ring, December 17 1991 Megatron was feuding with Panterita del Ring here. Seems like there's always someone feuding with Panterita in these old Monterrey videos. The action was fine and the brawling didn't get really good until the third fall, when Panterita began staggering around with a big wound under his mask, but what a crowd. It looked like they started chucking their drinks when Estrada had Panterita crotched on the ringpost. I couldn't tell if they hated Estrada or just loved Panterita that much. Or if it was a giddy holiday crowd. Then on the finish Panterita sent Megatron flying into Cuate Guerrero, bumping him out of the ring, and the other Cuate Guerrero disqualified the tecnicos, which basically turned it into a '97 Nitro scene. Yeah, you know how Cuate Guerrero sometimes gets on people's nerves? Well this match had two of 'em. Jerry Estrada, Corsario Negro and Ray Richard vs Rudy Reyna, Stuka and Super Bengala, late 1989 This isn't the best Jerry Estrada performance on video, and it definitely isn't the best Estrada match, but it might be the first time that I've ever seen him look like a candidate for best wrestler in the world. First he gets a triumphant welcome on his return to the North, with the commentator congratulating him on his victory over Javier Cruz. Then he gets into it with Stuka, and man, if all you've seen of Estrada vs Stuka is their hair match then you haven't seen Estrada vs Stuka. If all you've seen of Stuka is his '80s CMLL stuff then you haven't seen Stuka. He had this one move where he teetered on the edge of a fall outside of the ring and saved it with a perfect backflip over Estrada's head. The two of them wrestled on the mat, they did some aerial spots, and they rolled all over the floor slugging it out. Best of all, it was still a quintessentially Jerry Estrada performance. At one point they cut to a shot outside the ring while two other guys were facing off, and Estrada was sitting on the floor sipping on something a fan had given him. Outside of that matchup, you had Rudy Reyna, who was able to garner sympathy just by being a broken down old exotico, and you had Ray Richard. Pena had invented the concept of mini versions of bigger wrestlers just a few months back, but Richard had long before garnered the nickname El Chicanito for his resemblance to a pint sized Sangre Chicana. Just some of the fun workers who fill out these teams.

Seems like a waste to make a post like this so late in the game, and it's not my style of post at all, but I guess I wanted to make it anyway. My twenty favorite Dr. Cerebro matches, many already listed in this thread, in order of preference, with video links and short spoilertagged reviews. 1. Cerebro vs Virus, August 16 2015 2. Cerebro vs Felino, IWRG IC welter, January 18 2001, part two 3. Cerebro vs Erick Ortiz, August 11 2019 4. Cerebro vs Decnis, WWS world welter, September 16 2010, part two, part three 5. Cerebro vs Multifacetico, WWS world welter, June 2 2011, part two 6. Dr. Cerebro vs. Caifan, May 15 2016, alternate link 7. Cerebro and Cerebro Negro vs Mike Segura and Virus, IWRG IC parejas, August 25 2005 8. Cerebro vs Hijo del Santo, February 22 2001 9. Terribles Cerebros vs Malditos, October 14 2010, part two, part three, part four 10. Cerebro vs Hijo del Santo, IWRG IC welter, December 21 2000 11. Cerebro vs Hechicero, April 9 2016 12. Cerebro, Bombero Infernal and Fuerza Guerrera vs Hijo del Santo, Mascara Sagrada and Mike Segura, September 19 1999 13. Cerebro vs Toro Negro Jr., chain, November 13 2021 14. Cerebro and Black Terry vs Gringo Loco and Hijo del Diablo, January 24 2010 15. Cerebro, Black Terry and Chico Che vs Avisman, Gringo Loco and Hijo del Diablo, March 14 2010 16. Cerebro, Cerebro Negro and Fantasma de la Opera vs Aeroman, Fenix and Freelance, July 31 2008 17. Cerebro vs Tonalli, IWRG IC middle, May 29 2022 18. Cerebro, Bombero Infernal and Punch Power vs Mike Segura, Rodi and Ultimo Vampiro, December 2 1999 19. Cerebro, Negro Navarro and Silver King vs Felino, Mr. Niebla and Tony Rivera, January 4 2001 20. Cerebro, Fuerza Guerrera and Veneno vs Fantasy, Matrix and Mike Segura, September 2 2004 And there are plenty of others. His mask match vs Santo is worth a watch, he has a fun series with Ricky Marvin at one point, there's that Terribles Cerebros vs Dinastia Navarro series that a lot of people like and more. I'm not saying he has as many great matches as Virus, and I'm not saying he's as good a technical worker as Virus. I'm also not going to say that he doesn't or isn't. They're not on different levels, IMO. The two are a lot more similar than they are different.

Signo vs. Villano III, November 6 1992 The first fall features some of the most brilliant and skillful technical work you'll ever see. The second fall is a Villano III special. For those who don't follow his work super closely, a Villano III special is basically the Mexican version of a 1996 babyface Macho Man comeback. Then the picture cuts out and the third fall is audio only. Esto es lucha. Signo, Mr. Terror and Azteca de Oro vs Solar, Megatron and Asterisco, early '90s The matchup you want to see is Signo vs Solar, and that's the matchup you get. The first fall technical work between them is not brilliant and skillful but rather an exchange of holds between two people who plainly do not like each other. And they don't just drop it there and move on to the rest of the match. The two of them are at each other all night long. Signo really did look like the Misionero-in-chief when he was throwing right hands, and though he didn't have the Misioneros with him here, Solar still had to work his way through Signo's stooges to get a shot at the big man in the final fall. That was what I really liked about this. Signo brought out an angrier side to Solar than I'm used to seeing, and when you combine that with the first fall technical work it might be the most complete Solar performance on video. When you start raising my opinions of other people, it raises my opinion of you too. I liked the local guys as well. Asterisco was pretty good for a guy whose gimmick is that he's a punctuation mark. Signo's a toughie because we have very little of his prime on video. The UWA TV run is less than a year, and that's assuming Signo was even still in his prime then. Then he's off TV for a couple years before getting a brief run in AAA with a ridiculous pyromaniac gimmick. If all you get is a brief glimpse at someone's prime, they've really gotta shine, I mean they need to look like the best in the world in what little there is to see, for them to have a chance. I do think that Signo looked like one of the better workers in Mexico in 1992, but I'm not quite sure it was good enough to get a rally going for him. Eh, whatever, he made it on my ballot anyway. I had thirty-seven Mexico-based workers on my list, I figured I could make room for Signo. He kind of reminds me of a grouchier, less ebullient Emilio Charles, and I like the idea of a guy like that being the leader of the most famous team in the country's history.

This is my favorite one so far.

Good grief, that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said about something I've posted here. Thanks, that means a lot to me. Unfortunately, no good deed goes unpunished, so I'm going to talk a little bit more, this time about a couple of Virus title matches from the relatively unexplored period between his two peaks. Virus vs Makabre, January 25 2004 Makabre looks incredibly seedy, quite the feat for a masked wrestler. I suppose he goes along with how wrestlers changed from athletes and burly tough guys to creepy looking dudes and comic book fans. If you watch Virus matches for mindblowing technical work, this one will leave you disappointed. I really liked it. Virus is such a natural tecnico to me. He kept doing the Backlund spot, but Makabre wouldn't let go, and when the chance finally came Virus gave some similar punishment to Makabre's arm. That's how you make things personal and up the intensity all while keeping the match grounded in the championship style. Actually I don't really remember that sort of thing in his minis title matches. They went all out for the finishing stretch and the crowd popped pretty big for the win. Makabre has a gushing writeup on Luchawiki that calls him a great addition to the main CMLL or AAA roster, but it looks like he never made it outside of Guadalajara. It's kind of sad when you see a page that's such a time capsule like that. I will say that his performance in this match backed all of that praise up. Virus vs Eddy Montana, June 13 2004 As best I can tell both men were tecnicos. You don't see that a lot. Again the technical work at the start was good and solid, rather than best in the world stuff. I'm not that familar with Makabre or Montana, so I don't know how much legwork Virus had to do to make these matches come off well, and I don't know how well they showcased either man's strengths because I don't know what their strengths were. If Montana was known for his flying, then they did a great job of making that a part of this match, and he knew some cool holds too. My favorite thing about this one was how they made it look like the kid had a serious chance to take it in two straight falls. And he pushed for it, too. He put Virus in jeopardy right off the bat with a springboard corkscrew dive and later almost caught him unaware on a leglock attempt. Virus just got out of the way of some corner attack and you could see on Montana's face that he knew he'd missed his chance there. The third fall wasn't quite as big as in the Makabre match, but I'd rate them about even. Just a guess, but I'd say that Virus was still mastering the title match style here. Adding some stuff that hadn't been there in his minis days, but even the Makabre match didn't feel quite as big as the stuff he was doing in the 2010s.

How has Panther's case changed in the past ten years? He's a mat wizard with extremely good longevity, and he was a mat wizard with extremely good longevity in 2015. It's better to be good for longer, but unless you're just adding up great matches for each candidate I can't imagine what he could have proven in that time span.

It's a message board. If people are posting, it's alive. If they aren't, it's dead. If don't want the board to die, post things. If you mostly post or posted in the current wrestling section, there are countless other places online to have discussions about AEW or WWE. To me this site's value was always in its niche topics. I don't even know where else there is for me to talk or read about some random match from 2002 Naucalpan or whatever.

Cross this one off the list.

I dunno if it's that weird. Look at Virus and Dr. Cerebro. Both brilliant technicians but not particularly gifted heatseekers. Navarro probably got a lot of heat in his days as a Misionero, but as an older man he didn't make that part of his game much. Part of what fascinated me about Mexican wrestling when I was first getting into it was the dichotomy between title matches and almost everything else, to the point that the former was almost a separate style. Doesn't really seem all that strange to me that guys who make their name off matches where they pit their abilities against their opponent's might not excel when the goal is to rile up the crowd. There's not a lot of overlap between the skills needed for each kind of match.

Got bored already? ):

Yeah, and the masks and strict adherence to kayfabe just add to the mystique of it all. There's no way to know if someone is who they say they are. When someone disappears from the records you can never tell if they started over under a new identity or if they just up and left wrestling. Go for it. You think I have anybody ranked below Konnan? I've already packed it in.

Herodes is good. I know his Luchawiki page calls him an amazing worker. Most of what I've seen from him is more solid than amazing, but you know it's a roll of the dice with '80s footage. I generally have more of an affinity for waterbug types or angry short dudes than for big men who are good at being big, though. As for some non-nominees I quite like... Americo Rocca was a CMLL regular (and pushed too hard to be called a journeyman) for over twenty years. He had a strange, Backlund-esque way of moving, but he was a terrific technician. Generally seems to be regarded around here (to the extent that he's regarded at all) as the capable enough broomstick that was in the ring with Mocho Cota in 1984. Rocca vs Kid Guzman from 1999 is better than anything from Cota's second career. Enfermero Jr./Jaque Mate was technically and mechanically sound, but he had about as much charisma as you or I and was older than Satanico. Was fun as a challenger of the month for Lizmark or in a rudos vs rudos feud against Pierroth. That he got a title run in 1994 showed just how low things had fallen. Wish I could see his hair match with Emilio Charles. Escudero Rojo was an Arena Coliseo gatekeeper in the mid-'90s. If you wanted to move up the cards, you had to go through the Red Baron to do it. Technically competent and sometimes fun, he looked like a miniature Babe Face when he got to cut loose against Gran Apache and Mestizo (Babe Face was a small man to begin with). Felinito/Mach 1/Punch Power was a mini whose approach to working as a smaller version of Felino was to imitate Felino's mannerisms and even exact sequences from Felino matches. I love how literally he took that assignment. He was a good early rival for Mike Segura. The two of them went to AAA together and then to IWRG together, where surviving footage of Punch Power shows a small, dour looking man with his head poking out of a bodysuit as he takes his frustration out on the tecnicos to the extent that his abilities allow. I'm a short dude and not much of a smiler myself, so I can empathize. Lasser is the king of the Mexican journeymen. I can't even imagine who would be in second place. On his Luchawiki page, under the Unmasked By section, it says, "Many people, many times, with more to come." They didn't change it even after he died. That just about sums him up. Mike Segura is the tecnico workhorse of turn of the century IWRG. Anytime you have him vs Dr. Cerebro in that time period it's gonna be good. Had an apuestas match with Fuerza that I really liked, and I have fond memories of Segura, looking like he just finished painting his living room, trying to work skillful exchanges in a match that asked him to sell for a five year old boy and sit back as Super Porky made fart jokes and dick jokes. Tigro! The best of the Thundercats, in my opinion.

Guys with a case for goodness: 53) Art Barr Strengths: Probably the most over wrestler in 1994 Mexico. Weaknesses: Got over with an act that was easy to get over with. It didn't portend big things for Ken Timbs or Sam Adonis outside of one specific time and place, so I'm not convinced it was a sign of future greatness for Barr either. Whenever I see Love Machine paired up with Blue Panther, I react about the same as Barr does to this DDT(?). Peak: I'd guess that at the time he was considered a great worker after he turned rudo in summer '94 all the way up to his death. Wouldn't really complain if someone put him in Mexico's top 10-20 for 1994. Best matches: Barr, Guerrero and Santo vs Fishman, Fuerza and Panther (1993), Barr and Guerrero vs Octagon and Santo (1994) 54) Rayo de Jalisco Jr. Strengths: Fun, cartoonish brawler. With his headbutts and dancing he kind of feels like a main event version of Super Astro. I like Super Astro. He's a good wrestler to be a poor man's version of. Weaknesses: After like 1992 he's a ponderous, cartoonish brawler. Peak: Looks decent in a lot of his '80s footage. Had a nice run in the early days of the TV show with the Cien Caras and Kamala feuds. Would he be a top 20 CMLL worker in 1990 or 1991? Not sure I'd go that far. Best matches: vs Cien Caras (1990), vs Apolo Dantes (1996) 55) Javier Llanes Strengths: Had a great program with Dandy in 1994. Not a lot of great programs happening in 1994. Weaknesses: Not very successful as a wrestler. Did manage to integrate himself into the booking team for a while, and later had a prominent role as a commentator. Peak: January-February 1994. Came out of retirement and suddenly, two months into 1994, had a case as the best wrestler in Mexico. Stopped making TV almost immediately after. Best matches: vs Dandy (1994), all the other matches as part of that feud 56) Canek Strengths: They never took the time to tell you 'bout Canek. Weaknesses: So you had to learn about him in the discotheque. Peak: You'd think that bodyslamming Andre the Giant would rate as the pinnacle of any man's career. In the case of Canek I sincerely hope that it wasn't. Best matches: vs Dos Caras (1992) 57) Octagon Strengths: Octagon is in a lot of great matches, more than many workers who are listed above him here. Weaknesses: He doesn't drag those matches down, but for a lot of them his contributions aren't really what push the match towards greatness, nor would they be difficult for any other tecnico to reproduce. Other than stock exchanges, spends most of his time waving on the crowd, yelling at Tirantes and rolling around holding his groin. Peak: Supposedly he got out of shape and lazy by 1994, but I can't really tell the difference between 1991 and 1994 Octagon. Was in a lot of praised AAA matches from mid-'94 through mid-'95. Best matches: vs Fuerza Guerrera (1991), Octagon and Santo vs Barr and Guerrero (When Worlds Collide), the definitive AAA 3v3 (March 1995), the definitive AAA 4v4 (June 1995), the even better AAA 4v4 (July 8 1995) 58) Kung Fu Strengths: Kung Fu usually got reactions, and that's what counts in the grand scheme of things. Brought out a lot of fire in Atlantis. Had some fun moments as a Memphis-esque heel in 1990-91. Weaknesses: Not a good brawler. Not breathtaking or even fast in 3v3 exchanges off the ropes. As a tecnico everything he does is out of a third rate martial arts movie. As a rudo everything he does is out of a third rate Eddie Gilbert match. Peak: Probably with the Fantasticos. Best matches: There are people who like the mask match with Atlantis (1990). 59) Konnan Strengths: Konnan's matches were generally heated. Weaknesses: They weren't heated because of what he did in the ring. It was because he was over as a muscleman, or a rapper, or a gangster or the WCW version of the Road Dogg. By 1998 he probably had less athletic ability than Road Dogg. Konnan always wrestled like he knew what he was supposed to do to get a reaction, but there was this weird detachment from it. I don't think he ever totally bought into the zany make believe world of pro wrestling. Sensible enough, but who wants to watch a performer in any medium who isn't completely invested in their performance? Peak: 1991-92. His overness did play a part in those fun heavyweight 3v3s from the first few months of 1992. Best matches: In addition to those fun heavyweight 3v3s (1992), there's the match with Perro Aguayo in which he lost his mask (1991). That match got four stars in the Observer. Now, it's not a **** match, and in fact it just looks like Konnan's out there trying to do as many cool moves as he can. But it was an incredibly important match and it got four stars, and I can't understand why it's never generated any discussion in the English speaking lucha fanbase.