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  1. cad

    Fuerza Guerrera vs Pirata Morgan

    This is a very close one. Instinctively I figured that it had to be Fuerza, but when I give it some thought, Pirata is probably the better brawler, even if Fuerza holds his own there. Pirata is probably better working with a team, both as a leader (Bucaneros) and as a follower, although again this is something Fuerza does well too. Fuerza stayed better for longer, I think, but Pirata probably has the stronger taped output from the '80s. They're about equal in great matches, maybe edge to Pirata. So that's almost everything, and it looks like if anything Pirata's out in front. The gamebreaker for me is that I think Fuerza was a couple of levels above Pirata as a technical wrestler. Pirata could hold his own there, but it wasn't that far above the way someone like Perro Aguayo could hold his own there, scraping by to justify holding a belt. Fuerza vs Pantera is a performance that was beyond Pirata, IMO. He has some good title matches (in 1991 he worked a very good thirty minute match with Mascara Sagrada of all people) but I can't imagine being excited for the actual technical work, and that's probably my favorite thing in wrestling. Win to Fuerza, but it's closer than I thought going in.
  2. cad

    El Bracero

    My vote goes to Kung Fu.
  3. cad

    El Hijo del Santo vs Ric Flair

    Last time's #29 vs the reigning champ. Two men often maligned as formula workers. Both of them were productive for a long time. Both of them traveled all over, and made even their smalltown stops count. Both of them have great matches captured with handhelds. Is Santo one of the wrestlers who could potentially knock off the man? Santo thread Flair thread
  4. cad

    Bret Hart vs Rey Mysterio

    Not to get too dark, but I can't recall any Bret Hart matches that resulted in someone dying. The arguments for Rey's case always seem quantity based. It's great that he's the best WWE TV match worker of all time, but is that such a great thing to be? When I see someone called the best squash match worker of all time or whatever it always sounds like a backhanded compliment. Best WWE TV match worker is a step up from that, but if they were capable of dropping classics then you'd be talking about the classics. Halloween Havoc, classic. After that...maybe I need to rewatch the Psicosis match from AAA? There just aren't that many Rey matches that have entered into legend. The one that often gets cited as Rey's best TV match is the one with Eddy from 2005. I don't know if that's a level above Bret vs Savage, Bret vs 123 Kid, or Bret vs washed up nobody can get anything out of him anymore Bobby Backlund. If you're making a list of TV matches, Rey's list is going to run away with it, but Bret's could hang in there for a little bit, when it's best vs best.
  5. cad

    Ultimo Dragon vs Randy Orton

    Never thought of Dragon as a sloppy worker myself. But if you're going to knock Orton for being second best in most of his greatest matches then you have to do the same for Dragon, right? What even is his best performance, the 1996 PPV against Mysterio? I think if I saw that a wrestler I really liked was matched up with Dragon, I'd be excited to watch it. If I saw a wrestler I liked matched up with Orton, I'd be curious but I wouldn't necessarily expect something good.
  6. cad

    Ultimo Dragon vs Randy Orton

    #169 vs #198 from last time. Two guys with generally good reputations, except here, where their nominee threads were largely negative. Career WWE worker vs a guy who had successful runs in Japan, Mexico and the United States but flopped, literally and figuratively, in WWE. Dragon thread Orton Thread
  7. cad

    Ciclon Ramirez

    Is there any other worker like him? With some guys you watch the matches hoping to see what spectacular move they'll do this time. With Ciclon it's just one move, you've seen it before, and you still watch in hopes of seeing it again. No dive better conveyed the wrestling universal that you don't want to get hit by high flying offense. Beyond the tope, Ciclon brought a lot to the table. He knew his holds and counterholds. He was a wild bumper who was up for spots that no one else would be crazy enough to do. And he could brawl. Man, could he brawl. It's not hard to imagine an alternate reality in which he spent his entire career working bloody wars on the indies, with only one or two of them surviving into this century and leaving us all wondering who this maniac was and why we couldn't see more of him. Instead he was so talented that he couldn't help working for a major promotion with TV, where they mostly stuck him in the undercard. I wish the Felino program had been better, because that was his big shot, but the closest it ever got to an out of control fight was when it turned into a WWE Divas feud based on ripping each other's clothes off. A while back there were some positive reviews of his IWRG run in 2000, but very little of that is online. The hair vs hair match with Javier Cruz listed upthread is the one to watch, but here are some random matches that I hope demonstrate the appeal of Mr. Ramirez. CR, Blue Demon Jr. and Javier Cruz vs Pirata Morgan, Hombre Bala and Hijo del Gladiador CR and America vs Engendro and Scorpio Jr. CR, Huracan Sevilla and Jinete vs Ciclon Mackey, La Fiera and Espectro de Ultratumba CR and Oro vs America II and Emilio Charles Jr. CR, Ultimo Dragon and Oro vs Negro Casas, Felino and Bestia Salvaje
  8. cad

    Negro Casas vs Terry Funk

    There are times when CMLL workers, even alltime greats at their peak like Casas in the early 1990s, don't have anything going on, at least not on TV. Between their own programs they'll show up as backup during other wrestlers' feuds, or they'll just work random matches, getting their paydays and pleasing the people who wanted to see them. There are also invisible programs that they'll be working, where they'll have the title match and the exciting matches that build to it, but it's all at Arena Coliseo Acapulco, or one of the untaped Sunday shows in Mexico City, or maybe a non-CMLL territory like Monterrey, so it's not something we can watch in 2021. It's different from the WWF where the untelevised shows are usually just guys working whoever they're partnered with on TV at the moment, but where pretty much everyone important is involved in an angle at all times. Other than the matches listed above, I guess the most interesting thing about Casas in 1993-95 is that he turned tecnico and back to rudo in that span. He spent much of spring/summer '93 as part of the Felino-Ciclon Ramirez program, and it looked like they were setting up an angle between Casas and Felino. Either they weren't, or it was the slowest developing turn of all time, because Casas didn't start teaming with the tecnicos until June 1994. The catalyst, IIRC, was Emilio Charles and Bestia Salvaje beating him up after he lost a match for them, but instead of seeking revenge on them he just dredged up his rivalry with Mocho Cota, which had drawn a decent house for them as a rudo vs rudo program in March. Then Santo joined the promotion in summer of 1995 and Casas almost immediately returned to the rudo side to feud with him.
  9. cad

    El Satanico

    Couple of months back I got curious and checked out a Satanico match for the first time in years, thinking maybe I'd gotten past my disdain for the guy. It was the December 1995 hair match with Hector Garza, one I'd never read anything about. Garza got to win clean, not something that you see often against Satanico, but what a price to pay. The moves that he used to win each fall were literally his only offense in the whole match. I thought that Satanico vs Octagon from 1991 was the ultimate example of halfassing a job. Unbelievable that he found a way to top it. Another Satanico classic.
  10. cad


    Revolutionary mind, but they labeled him a wino. I'm not sure he contributed any vocals to Psycho, just appeared in a music video for it. There's another music video for the song that doesn't include Konnan at all, which would be kind of shitty on Mad One's part.
  11. cad

    Pantera Surena

    Thanks for the upload and the link to the alternate upload, guys. I really appreciate it.
  12. cad

    Pantera Surena

    It probably has more to do with the fact that women's wrestling from Mexico largely has been ignored by the star rating type of fans. I've been as guilty of it as anyone, maybe more so. There's plenty of Pantera out there to watch, you just have to be content to see her in opening style tag matches, the kind that are on the card just to warm up the crowd. I recommended the Toreo title match with Jaguar Yokota off memory, haven't seen it in probably five years, but I think that was the match that opened my eyes to her. I badly wish someone would upload it.
  13. cad

    Fuerza Guerrera

    See, Atlantis is a guy I would say was great for about four or five years. Even if he delivered a great match in 2000 or 2014 he wasn't the consistently electric presence he'd been in the EMLL glory days. Satanico's harder to pin down because his best stuff was in the 1980s and harder to document, but '90s Satanico wasn't exactly a great worker anymore, so it's hard to say how long he was great vs. how long Fuerza was. He'd have to have been special as early as the 1970s to have a big edge on Fuerza. Almost every '80s Fuerza match makes him look good. DJ Spectro recently uploaded a fancam from 1985-86 in which Fuerza works hard and has a good match in Arena Pista Revolucion, the third string EMLL arena in Mexico City. The list at the beginning of the thread is a good place to start. On a smaller scale, I remember when he came back to Arena Mexico in 1995 he was walking around ringside, kneeing Fiera in the groin and then kissing the hand of some woman who always had front row seats. It was this match: Blue Panther y Fuerza Guerrera Regresan a la Arena Mexico en 1995. I thought that captured Fuerza's essence quite nicely.
  14. cad

    Fuerza Guerrera

    I don't get dinging Fuerza for a lack of longevity, like at all. He was born in the early 1950s, same as guys like Americo Rocca. He was over 40 for all of those AAA matches with Rey, Panther, and the gang. Was he supposed to be a force at age 50? You can see from what little we have on him that he was good in the '80s too. And wasn't it 2016 when people were praising him for still being able to have a good match with Octagon at 60+? If the problem is that he wasn't great after 1995 or so, well, that's still six years he was a great worker. Most guys, even the great ones, aren't genuinely great for that long.
  15. cad

    Cien Caras

    He used to post here as Herodes but changed names for some reason. Doesn't look like his old account was banned.