evilclown

I couldn't tell if he was putting us on there. I mean, forced viewing of Brody versus Abdullah is probably a violation of the Geneva Convention.

I just read a section of the book about how "Superstar" Billy Graham institutionalized "the dominant heel" in WWF thanks to his run as champion. Despite, you know, the WWF going straight into more than a decade of long-term babyface champs. This is almost exactly as wrong as you could possibly be about something.

Any award given to art is based on people's perceptions.

I think the idea of a Hall of Fame for matches is wacky enough for me to get behind.

I've always gotten along with him. I enjoy talkign with him whenever we cross paths at a UFC event. His readers? That's another story, at least the ones on his message board. Wow!

I agree. I was hoping that was what this guy would do for Tanahashi. Instead, he decided just asking the question made me an asshole. I wanted to learn something from him. To be fair he went in on why he thought Tanahashi was good in-ring pretty well. Did he? In between his various threats to "retire" from the thread and somehow painting himself a victim?

I agree. I was hoping that was what this guy would do for Tanahashi. Instead, he decided just asking the question made me an asshole. I wanted to learn something from him.

I see. I have a brother in London, but I'm not sure I could convince him to put them in his luggage instead of clothes on his next trip.

I was just going to suggest that, if only to save you a few bucks. It may of been Lister who created the template for formatting. I have a huge box full of WON's from 1997-2004 that is just collecting dust, I'd probably revisit them if they were online (which to be honest Jan 1997 will be in a few months). I can understand the appeal of having a physical copy though. If you have a complete-ish set, I'll take them off your hands....

Juventud Guerrera would be on my first ballot and that's a shoot.

I am only going to vote for Kurt Angle and Shawn Michaels because fuck jdw! He can't tell me what to do.

Yes. The same guy who is an expert on Tanahashi also has to be an expert when it comes to the Sharpe Brothers and Sakaguchi.

If you really wanted to further the discussion you would have invited one of us on your podcast to discuss. How do you possibly know that? I agree that you are likely right. But, considering the "first ballot" performers were selected by fiat and that no one has been elected exclusively for workrate, I think it's safe to say we don't know for sure who would be elected with that as the lone criteria. I will say this: I am glad the initial class went in without leaving it in the hands of the voters. If it was up to Dave's personally selected voters it would be a Hall full of guys from the 80's to the present and a handful of older guys they vaguely recall reading or hearing about.

Um... I think we need Dylan to do the equiv of the classic Bret Hart Book Review on this thing. Someone is interviewing the author next week. It would be super handy to have some issues to discuss with him. Anyone want to go through this thing and see how well he does getting things right?

Considering how eager the new age Japanese media is to uncover sports scandals (fighting, kickboxing, and more recently sumo, judo and baseball) we'll know that NJPW has really hit the mainstream when shit hits the fan. If such a thing were to happen, Tanahashi has got all the numbers to be their Hulk Hogan for a number of reasons. Or maybe not! Does this mean Jun Izumida should be on the ballot for writing a tell all book revealing NOAH Director Haruka Eigen's and Ryu Nakata's formal ties to the Yakuza? Sounds "mainstream." Let's lionize him!

To take it a step further—I'm not sure Tanahashi isn't a Hall of Famer. I didn't really consider him because I don't want to vote for guys in the prime of their careers. It doesn't make sense for me conceptually. In 10 years it's likely we would have looked back and admired his matches and his contributions towards saving the business in Japan. Maybe not. But I think that's the time to make a case, not while he's an active main eventer.

I said I don't know who you are because I don't know who you are. You could be Steve Yohe or Bryan Alvarez or Ed in San Antonio. I have no way of knowing. That wasn't an insult. It remains a statement of fact. You're an anonymous poster on a message board who at this point is intentionally misreading the tone and nature of the discussion.

What's whiny about it? Do you disagree with that idea? You don't think that Dave includes a number of voters who see the world through the same prism he does? I think that's a natural inclination. More than that I suspect a large number of the voters know very little about Japanese candidates beyond what they read in the Observer. I have no idea who you are. But I'd be curious what qualifies you as a voter for a historical wrestling Hall of Fame? What qualifies anyone?

I don't think he's a bad wrestler at all. In fact, I agree with what you've written here. This guy is very much a Shinjiro Ohtani level worker. That's not an insult. But that's also what causes a disconnect for me. How can you make an argument, with a straight face, that being a good 1990's style NJPW wrestler makes you among the best to have ever done it?

I agree with this. What I like about him in the matches I've seen is that he understands what he needs to do to draw in and keep the crowd. Leaving aside his style of match (your turn/my turn), my main issue with him is in his execution. It's not that he doesn't know what to do in a match. It's that he does it with a shocking lack of force and conviction.

With respect, I think you've completely misread this board. There's no issue with "self awareness" or a lack of understanding about the mechanisms that lead to a wrestler being elected to the WON Hall of Fame. Many of us have been having these conversations for a decade. I don't think there's a single one of us who doesn't know Tanahashi is going to go in. Just like we knew Angle would go in before him. For my part, I'm curious about why. What makes the breed of voter Dave has stacked the deck with so certain this is a Hall of Fame level wrestler? I don't think it's wrong to ask you to explain your decision to vote for him. Just as it's not wrong to ask me why I voted for Ricky Morton. I'd be glad to tell you.

I don't think they are shitty matches either. I've enjoyed plenty of the NJPW stuff people have pointed me towards. But I haven't thought of them as classics. Certainly not historically great.

How does the fact you agree with this point make it a "strawman" argument? Do you even understand what that means? It's a legitimate argument, made in good faith, that addresses your point directly. It's not a "strawman." What makes this a "historical run?" What does historical even mean in this context? What is the standard for determining who is eligible to vote? Some of the voters seem to be proxy votes sought out to validate certain opinions. They don't seem to be people grounded in a historical appreciation of wrestling.

How is it a "strawman"? You said he might be one of the best wrestlers of all-time. I'll suggest, with respect, that he doesn't have shit on Tsuyoshi Kikuchi. His matches aren't as over, don't draw as many people and aren't as good as the matches in classic AJPW, which is the gold standard of modern pro wrestling. No one really measures to that standard today. Which is fine. No one is Michael Jordan. But this guy isn't LeBron James. He's Harold Minor. What does that make Cena? Based on a basketball HOF analogy? I don't know. Dwayne Wade? A clear notch below Jordan and James and the like. And, to be fair, maybe Tanahashi is Rip Hamilton. That's giving him the benefit of the doubt.

How is it a "strawman"? You said he might be one of the best wrestlers of all-time. I'll suggest, with respect, that he doesn't have shit on Tsuyoshi Kikuchi. His matches aren't as over, don't draw as many people and aren't as good as the matches in classic AJPW, which is the gold standard of modern pro wrestling. No one really measures to that standard today. Which is fine. No one is Michael Jordan. But this guy isn't LeBron James. He's Harold Minor.