Mantaur Rodeo Clown

I mean I appreciate the argument here and think there's a lot of merit to it. But BEST WRESTLER ON THE PLANET might be a bit strong. Roddy has always been a very proficient wrestler, and I don't think even in the early ROH days his critics would argue any differently. But I do believe he lacked strongly as a character for many, many years. As such, he had a very high floor for his matches, but could also never turn his matches from "entertaining" and "good" into transcendentally great or classic. And if you're the best wrestler in the world, you should be producing classics at a fairly brisk clip. I think he was really on top of the world during his PWG heel run as champion, obviously with a very generous crowd who were up for everything. But he regressed in WWE and is just coming back around in AEW now. But I still wouldn't put him ahead of Kyle as a wrestler or as an act.

I think the main point of contention is that not everyone will be using your criteria of 20 year period. It's just a very long period of time for a wrestler to be consistently GREAT. There are also the logistics of it. It means anyone that wasn't already wrestling at a high level by 2005/6 is now invalidated from being a top 10 wrestler. And if someone started wrestling in the late 60s/early 70s, there simply won't be enough footage to confirm their case. I'm all for the longevity argument and do think it holds a lot of water. But I think you have to make carve-outs for wrestlers that had 10 or 15 years that were beyond anything we have ever seen. I'd say this is my argument with Flair. I'd probably say somewhere in the region of 1982 - 1995 is what builds his case. You might argue that's only 14 years, that other wrestlers have more years of great production. But I would argue that Ric Flair was SO ahead of everyone else in the world during some of those years, that it averages out. He was certainly wrestling more than most other people on the planet. I'm actually making myself a little bit nauseous by doing this, but I'm going to refer to Cagematch (I know, I know, forgive me). It currently has listings for 2,346 AJ Styles matches, a number which will increase. It has a listing for 5,025 Ric Flair matches. And that could be an underestimate. So what are we really talking about here when we talk about longevity? Because Flair shredded his bump card more than any human on earth. He may not have it across years, but he has it in pure volume. During his golden period, no one could really touch his act, no one could touch his promos, I would trust no one more than Flair to get a good match out of a random jabroni at a Kansas spot show. And just to your last point about giving a wrestler a "bridge" during bad segments of their career, I think that is fine. I believe a great many people would argue for giving Keiji Mutoh a bridge into his bald headed revival period, or skipping American Badass Taker, or not holding Ringmaster Steve Austin too heavily against him. Everyone can have slumps.

If you take him on his own merits in 2005 as a different wrestler rather than a guy who is 30 per cent of what he used to be in 1989, he's perfectly entertaining. There's been a bit of talk that Flair didn't adapt his style to modern sensibilities, but I think he did what he could. The little hardcore phase he had in 2006 for instance. He leaned into his "dirtiest player in the game" far more, as he couldn't trade headlocks and arm drags for 55 minutes anymore. And even at 56, with all the wear and tear on his body, he can still go out there and work at Kurt Angle's pace, which is notoriously go-go-go. Ric Flair vs Kurt Angle - WWE RAW - June 27, 2005 Is he gassed at the end of it? Of course. But the crowd is still red hot for him, and lose their minds for a VERTICAL SUPLEX IN 2005. Honestly, if you let him wrestle someone who actually worked a hold now and then to let Flair breathe, it probably would have been even better. Yes, sorry for not making myself clear. I merely picked the early 90s to show that some promoters (Jim Herd) clearly thought he was over the hill. But he still had great matches (Vader, Steamboat, Savage) in the early 90s. His de-emphasis came post-nWo, which makes perfect business sense, but makes it more difficult for his GWE case. The lack of TV time (3 hours initially to modern day WWE's approximately 186 hours of weekly content) means he was naturally going to be pushed into the background. But between a turn away from in-action (more run-ins! more!) and angles that did no one any favours (like getting committed to an insane asylum), I don't think we can lay the blame at Flair's feet and say it was because he couldn't go anymore. He says himself his confidence was shot by 2001, wrestling in a T-shirt on the final Nitro out of shame. I don't think that it's unique to Flair either. I don't think late 90s WCW is used to promote Bret Hart's case, or Curt Hennig's case, or Macho Man's case.

I mean if anyone is trying to argue this, they can safely be ignored as they are clearly a moron. Lest this entire exercise become some sort of competition of who can be the biggest moral scold. This remains an exception, not the rule. There are plenty of 45+ wrestlers getting around on the indies who are putting on terrible matches. Yes, you seem to have outlined the exact reasons why it is much easier to wrestle well into your 40s today than it was in the 80s and 90s. The work schedule alone would have literally, not figuratively, but literally killed several more wrestlers if it was still as strenuous today. Ric Flair should not lose points for the shifting economics of the business enabling a healthier work environment today. All of those wrestlers still have fewer bumps on their bump card than Flair at their age. They also have one fewer plane crash. CM Punk? Are you kidding me? He left pro wrestling for seven years! I note, Flairs best 10 matches also easily clear the best 10 matches of everyone you mentioned. He was simply never asked to put on very good TV matches for much of his peak, because that was not the business model. You didn't mention the obvious point, which is that even when Flair was able to still go, he was de-emphasised in booking and never put in a position to have long, good matches like older wrestlers are today. He was already considered over the hill by the early 90s (Spartacus lmao), just a couple years removed from putting on what are considered possibly the greatest matches ever. That would simply never happen in today's world, and guys like AJ/Rey benefit greatly from it. Kenny Omega is a shell of his former self, and is still treated and booked like the man who was wrestling Okada and Naito in 2017. Flair, when given the chance, could still produce into his late 40s, and was clearly put in a support role not designed to show him off as a great wrestler by the time he returned to WWE.

If Cena had worked any other time and place than PG WWE, he'd be a midcarder for life, because there would have been more talented people pushed ahead of him. Possibly the most overrated match on this site, and sadly one where Umaga does not get nearly enough credit for being the actual star of the match. No, he's just being carried by a better wrestler, and the fact he was booked to not lose for most of his career "elevates" the match because he's very over. What "resonantes" with most hardcore fans online these days is the fact that they were 7 years old when he was first getting pushed. I think he's approximately a replacement level wrestler, and that there were about 50 wrestlers you could have given the same push to in 2005 and had similar or better quality matches.

This remains THE question going into 2026. I believe it is what people will be forced to debate. Daniel Bryan Danielson has all the benefits of recency bias. He wrestled the modern style, doing “”””bangers”””” with guys like Ospreay and Omega and has been consistently marketed as the greatest wrestler of his generation. He has a passion and understanding for the business that is peerless in the modern era. He has reached the top of the card in every single place he’s ever worked, and that achievement cannot be understated. But I still don’t know if it will get him past the Nature Boy. Ignoring the fact that years of Flair’s career have been lost to time. There will simply never be another like him. The look. The promo. The work ethic. The drawing ability. The matches. Oh, the matches. They can both wrestle on the mat. They can both brawl and go hardcore. They can work sprints and they can work broadways. They can work tags. They can work heel and babyface equally well. There will be a generational divide in the voting between these two, and in these cases, youth and recency seems to win out. I’ll need more time to consider.

Yes. Cena is tremendously overrated, both in casual circles but also strangely on this site. I assume people were just 9 years old during his peak. Bret was a main event talent from 1992-1999. Seven years. Cena was a main event talent from 2005 to, well, 2025. Twenty years. Despite Bret inheriting a smaller business, working with much worse talent, having much less of a push, and competing against much stiffer competition, he managed to create many more memorable moments and better matches. I don’t even think their promos are that far apart. Cena’s success was simply a war of attrition against the fans, and the sinking ratings and popularity of wrestling while he was on top reflected that.

I don't know about that. He wasn't there that long, was put on guaranteed money by Vince and had some very high-profile angles and spots. A man very ahead of his time (ring work wise in his youth, character wise in his 30s), and would have been a massive star in the Attitude Era. He was destined to be it. It like both he and the fans were robbed of that opportunity. But he deserves to be recognised in the top 100.

I think Jeff has to make it. The sort of wrestler that actually transcends any discussion of match quality or promo ability or look or size or anything tangible. He simply has it. He has the ability to connect with fans on a level that very few people could. And boy did he pay for it. I don't know how much pain Jeff Hardy wakes up in every morning, but I would say it is not insignificant. And when you do that to your body every night, the substances are going to follow. But there are 100 "technically proficient" wrestlers that are better-on-paper, but never had it. Jeff Hardy is one of the top 100 wrestlers of all time.

Yeah, almost a prototypical late bloomer. Who would have thought the fake guitar hero guy tramp stamp guy would go to Japan and have wrestle in a G1? The only issue is that once you finally figure it out as a late bloomer, you're getting too old to get seriously pushed anywhere, and you're always injured. Unfortunately getting paired with Jake just didn't help him, and he's resigned to being a midcard tag guy now. Would be interested in seeing his absolute best 3 matches or so. He had a tremendous death match with Page, but I put a lot more of that on Page's shoulders. I figure he might have scratched up a good match or two in NJPW/NOAH after becoming the Murderhawk.

I'm really not sure I understand your point. 80s Joshi wrestlers only seem like they were ahead of their time, because they were incredibly influential on the acts that came after them? Isn't this definitionally saying they were ahead of their time? Obviously they were influenced by the systems and conditions around them at the time, but to say they weren't ahead of their time seems strange. Sure, but we live on Earth-626 where this is not the case. So it stands to reason they were ahead of their time. This is particularly interesting because I often forget how YOUNG Regal was at the time. Being British and working that style always gave me the impression he was an old vet, when he was actually about 25 years old at the time. Your in-ring style can have that effect! "People wrestling outside the norm" is absolutely a valid way to look at it. There are probably two schools of great wrestler: those that are doing something that no one else is doing, and those that are doing what everyone else is doing, but doing it better than anyone. As social media and the internet makes the wrestling world even smaller and more cramped, I think it's harder to find these unique workers these days. If you watch an AEW show, then a New Japan show, then a RevPro show, then a AAA show, you're probably going to see a lot of similar spots. A little bit sad unfortunately. For better or for worse, I think this same mentality has driven the PWG-high-spot-arms-race that pervades a lot of wrestling these days. Accelerate the match non-stop so you get noticed, even if it burns out the crowd and has horrific diminishing returns.

Simply doesn't have enough material to contest for a top 100 spot. But some of the stuff there is undeniably fun. Obviously had the benefit of booking it all and owning the company, allowing him to perform with a freedom that very few wrestlers have ever enjoyed. There's a different universe where Vince becomes a wrestler to spite his father and goes to work for the territories. With his mind for the business, his fantastic promo ability and his predilection for taking an insane amount of steroids, I think he could have been an all-time worker. He's also Kenny Omega's favourite wrestler, funnily enough.

Short and sweet: How much weight are you giving to professional wrestlers who wrestle a style out of touch with their era? There are plenty of examples, but I'll use two specific ones: 1. FTR Very clearly, Dax Harwood and Cash Wheeler wrestle a throwback style, and owe an incredible debt to the 1980s JCP-era tag team wrestling. Although they are good wrestlers in their own right and have added various things to the formula, they essentially would not have an act without that foundation. It is buoyed by the fact that no one wrestles like this anymore. Does this hurt or harm their case? Would they have been as successful in a different era, and do you hold this against them? 2. Joshi Just choose a name out of a hat. There are countless women who were doing things in AJW in 1985 that male wrestlers still wouldn't be able to do 20 years later. How much weight do you give wrestlers for pushing the boundaries of what professional wrestling was? Would those same wrestlers have been able to work that style and been A successful if they instead had to run shows in say Kansas City for Central States Wrestling? There are wrestlers that seem like they stepped out of a time machine, whether forwards or backwards. Perhaps one day we will speak of Will Ospreay or Logan Paul the same way. Or perhaps in 2040 a wrestler will make it big by imitating Brock Lesnar. How does a wrestler's congruence or incongruence with the style of their peers affect how you see them?

ty ty ❤️ Masami gains some points just on her singing ability alone. Miles ahead of most other joshi.

Does anyone have a link to the full Masami/Nagayo match on 8/22/85? Sadly only the clipped version from the AJW TV show seems to be online

The term you're looking for is "exception to the rule".

He's very good, but I really need to see him have a proper main event run before deciding where to really rank him. The tag team with Sting was a cute little attraction and probably beneficial for Darby's health in the long run, but it's time for him to show what he can do as a true singles performer. Knowing AEW, he'll continue to be booked in garbage 10 man slop matches for the next 6 months and wasted.

Against all odds, has added to his case since 2021. God bless human growth hormone. Orton of course, by virtue of never trying all that hard, has a style that he could continue to wrestle for another 15 years. He might lose a couple inches off the dropkick. Whether he wants to do it is another thing, but he could add another few good matches to his resume by the time 2031 rolls around.

He just keeps on trucking. The highs are high, the lows are beyond low. At this point his resume is so extensive he almost has to get a look in somewhere on the list. WWE Vault's upload of his ladder match with HBK is a great reminder of just how sharp he could be on his day, and how much potential was wasted by his drug abuse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGPZ-t7J3b4

I still have a good giggle to myself remembering when he debuted in NXT, ran back to TNA lured by promises of a big Beer Money reunion, and then Roode ditched him and took his spot in NXT instead. Decent enough wrestler, but never showed enough ambition that he wanted to do anything besides be a solid tag guy. If he was born 20 years earlier, I think he'd have a better shot at making the list.

I agree that trying to gauge a wrestler's ability to entertain a mythical "aggregate" fan is difficult. But it is a clear marker of a wrestler's quality if they are able to entertain a wide range of audiences and continually have them invested in your matches (Flair is over in the NWA, he's over in WWF, he's over in Japan, he's over in Puerto Rico). If a wrestler never leaves their comfort zone in front of an audience they've worked many times before, be it the American Legion Hall in Reseda, the Asylum on Lister Street in Glasgow or the Thornbury Theatre in Melbourne, then it can and should be held against them. Their ability to capture different crowds in different eras should be a credit to them, and can be used to aid your decision making, in addition to who you personally like. There needs to be at least SOME reference points or criteria outside of picking your favourites, or else the discussion simply isn't as interesting.

I mean the answer to the question is plainly writ if you just look at even the top 25 or so of the 2016 list: 25) Barry Windham 24) Steve Austin 23) Shinya Hashimoto 22) Negro Casas 21) William Regal 20) Tatsumi Fujinami 19) Arn Anderson 18) Randy Savage 17) Bret Hart 16) Nick Bockwinkel 15) Ricky Steamboat 14) Vader 13) Genichiro Tenryu 12) Eddie Guerrero 11) Jumbo Tsuruta 10) Jerry Lawler 9) Toshiaki Kawada 8 ) Kenta Kobashi 7) Rey Mysterio Jr. 6) Jushin Liger 5) Daniel Bryan 4) Mitsuharu Misawa 3) Stan Hansen 2) Terry Funk 1) Ric Flair You won't be shocked to discover that barring one or two exceptions, all the top picks were also all main-event level players at one time or another in the biggest wrestling promotions in the world. Even Regal was about to get a main event run before he wellness'd himself. It turns out that truly great pro wrestlers like making money and wrestling in front of big crowds full of hot fans, and will work throughout their career to make that happen. What are the circumstances where someone who has the ability of a Top 100 GWE decides to just work in front of 30 people for peanuts for their entire career as a matter of choice? That simply doesn't exist.

First of all: Katzuhori? lol what? This thread was made in 2014, it's not like Shibata was some rookie who had just appeared. He hasn't really added to his case during his time in AEW. Some fine matches, but nothing to blow your socks off. Everyone of course will say "it's such a shame about the injury, it robbed him of some good years!" as if it is a bug, not a feature. When your style is actually kicking the shit out of people and them kicking the shit out of you, it's par for the course. Not exactly the most versatile worker of all time. But it's hard to argue with the heights he touched from 2013-2017. He'll be on the list, but somewhere lower.

No. "Makabe is a self taught backyard wrestler..." yes, I have eyes. I can see that. Benefits from the low-expectations of indies. If I paid my 10 bucks and saw this guy in a gym in front of 50 other people, I'm sure I would pleasantly surprised and he'd probably be one of the best workers on the show. His act is fairly clean and he avoids a lot of pitfalls that other indie workers fall into. But come on, top 100 of all time? The guy is clearly a competent amateur. It honestly not fair on the guy to put him in those conversations.

It's been four years since the last post in this thread, and I still haven't seen a good argument for why Flair shouldn't be considered Top 5 of all time at worst. One of the most complete packages in wrestling history, and has remained in high esteem despite having his career picked apart and scrutinized more closely than nearly anyone else in contention.