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  1. elliott

    Butch Reed

    Oooh Doom rules! I have these Doom match recommendations. It's not a Misawa & Kobashi peak or anything, but a great run with quality matches & character work. They had a real presence. They were a good match up for smaller teams like the Rock & Rolls or Pillman & Zenk. So they had more than just the killer hoss battles. The post-Doom WCW singles run is like a 3 month stretch agaisnt Ron Simmons so I don't really worry about that too much vs Eddie Gilbert & Tommy Rich Clash 9 11/15/89 vs Road Warriors 2/23/90 vs Steiners 2/6/90, 5/19/90, 6/13/90 vs Pillman & Zenk 6/16/90 vs Rock & Roll Express 7/7/90 vs Ric Flair & Arn Anderson 10/27/90 vs Barry Windham & Arn Anderson 12/16/90 vs Sting & Lex Luger 1/30/91 The Mid-South stuff is where its at though and the bulk of his candidacy is gonna come from there and whatever new Houston footage there is. Definitely spend your time watching Reed against Murdoch, JYD, Blackwell, Flair, Buzz Sawyer, Dibiase, Slater, etc.
  2. elliott

    Aja Kong

    I would really encourage folks check out that Aja Kong & Bull Nakano vs Marine Wolves 10/89 match. Aja in the 80s was always a shock because she was so wildly different from the Aja Kong we're all familiar with. Its late 89, but its the 80s nonetheless and the earliest awesome Aja performance I've seen. Plus its just a straight up awesome match and Bull Nakano is spitting mist which she never shouldve stopped doing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVFVVbsPmMo
  3. elliott

    Butch Reed

    Butch Reed was someone who didn't make my 2016 list and I regretted it the moment I hit send on my ballot. I meant to vote for him but he slipped through the cracks. Now he's one of those people who is on the bubble simply by virtue of me considering more people this time around. He's still awesome and he'll contend for a spot but he's just below the level of someone who I have written in stone. I could easily be swayed with more footage. What's come out recently? I fucking love some Butch Reed. The Mid-South run is amazing and everything you could want out of a top 100 candidate. We see Butch in a number of different settings either as a face or heel or working classic long title matches or violent brawls. He's one of the premier power wrestlers of his era. Check the 2/3 Falls St.Louis match against Crusher Blackwell for an awesome match with some incredible power wrestler vs super fat guy spots. The Doom run is fucking awesome too and a fantastic sort of supplement to his Mid-South run. The WWF run was disappointing based on what I've seen and especially by reputation. But thats hardly unique to Butch for that era WWE and the Doom run really more than makes up for it. The more I think about it the more I feel like I need to make some space for Butch Reed.
  4. elliott

    Matt Borne

    I've always been a big fan of Matt Borne and he is someone I want to watch more of this time around and think about. He would have benefited from a good career comp and he deserved one too. He worked in a lot of different places and did a lot of different things. The Doink run is fucking awesome. Great in ring work mixed with incredible character work. Its the sort of high end all around work that you can really build a top 100 candidacy on. He'd good in Mid-South and I REALLY like his Portland work. No surprise but he has an awesome feud with Buddy Rose in 81-82. The have a lumberjack match that is particularly spectacular but some other really great stuff as well. So I'd recommend anything against Rose. There's also a really awesome double juice brawl against Rip Oliver I liked a ton as well. Those violent brawls in Portland combined with the Doink run make him an interesting versatility candidate as well. He's someone I want to poke around and look at because he worked in a ton of different places over the years. Has a really good shot at making my list.
  5. elliott

    Lioness Asuka

    OJ, I don't disagree with any of this. THis is another thing that partially belongs in a different thread and should have been vocalized more before the project even began. Since the last project I've seen a number of people say that they didn't participate but enjoyed reading the discussions and have found the various wrestler threads useful resources. I know I've gone back and re-read various threads at certain points over the last 5 years. If you're unfamiliar with a wrestler, these threads can theoretically be great ways to learn about wrestlers. I sort of alluded to this above when I talked about Tommy Rogers. If I click on the Tommy Rogers thread, I would expect to primarily see a discussion about his work with the Fantastics and not his 2000s indy work. If I like the Fantastics stuff that'll lead me to the indy work. You should be able to click on any thread and learn about why someone is a candidate. What is their best run. What kind of candidate are they. Are they known for brawls are they known for technical matches? Are they a peak candidate or a longevity candidate? What should you prioritize if you're going to watch them. And yes when it comes down to it, what are the flaws. Until recently, this thread had minimal commentary. 2 posts from 2016. Then Grimmas' one bumping it. And then all of this. I'm a big Joshi fan. I didn't revisit anything in 2016 but in the ensuing 5 years I've rewatched a ton of stuff and watched a lot of stuff new to me as well. Going into the project I wanted to continue to watch Joshi, but also spend time promoting various candidates that I considered top tier wrestlers. I wasn't an enormous fan of Lioness in the 80s compared to her peers but I think what she shows makes her a viable candidate for the list. Its the most important run of her career and the best work she ever did. But she's not Hokuto, Nakano, Jaguar, Dump, Devil etc etc, so Lioness wasn't a priority for me. I'd get around to talking about her eventually, but we've got 5 years and I'd rather prioritize putting over those people I really love and think are top shelf wrestlers. So I didn't feel the urgency to respond to Grimmas and start a real discussion on Lioness. Its only a month in. I figured everyone would still be talking about the people they actually liked. Had Grimmas not asked Jet what they meant by worst legendary wrestler ever and had I not emphasized the Crush Gals run as the key part of her candidacy, someone who doesn't know much about Joshi reading this thread might come to the conclusion that Lioness' JD & Arison work is what was important to her candidacy. Since as OJ alluded to, Jet is the only person watching JD & ARISON and they don't like Lioness, surely there's some other reason she's nominated. People should asses that and go from there. I understand the argument is "this project is supposed to poke holes at people and assess them critically" and thats true. But lines like "The Takada of women's wrestling" and "worst legendary wrestler ever" with no context unless pushed isn't poking holes or critically assessing. This is why I felt it was important to emphasize for anyone coming into this thread 1, 3, 5, 8 years from now: the reason Lioness would be considered for a top 100 list is really born out of her 80s work first and foremost. She was part of a legendary tag team with Chigusa Nagayo that participated in wild out of control brawls and clean workrate classics. There have always been complaints about her selling and tendency to eat her opponents alive, but she has a decent amount of all time great matches and the Crush Gals were such a great team she merits consideration. Your mileage may vary on her singles matches but the 1985 match against Yokota is legendary. Her series against Chigusa produced some classic matches, especially the 1987 match. There's a great match against Yukari Ohmori too that I feel was more due to Ohmori than Lioness, but it was still a great Lioness performance. Lioness & Chigusa worked a really interesting style in the context of their time. It included a ton of stiff striking, shoot style mat work and big suplexes and bombs worked at a frenetic pace. They are also probably the most over tag team in the history of wrestling so they are always working in front of insanely hot crowds invested in everything they did. They could have skated by with less effort, but at their peak of fame they consistently worked as hard as any wrestlers in the world. Chigusa was the star of the team, but those chants for Lioness are every bit as loud. Her veteran work is less famous and explored. There's a famous match from 1995 against Yumiko Hotta that is super stiff and had a huge reputation at one time. Her even later work in smaller promotions like JD, ARISON, and GAEA is less watched, explored and discussed and saw Lioness turned away from her shooty sprinty style and became more of an ECW style garbage worker with tedious set ups to spots, poor and selling structure and disappointing work in general. If you're going to consider Lioness a top 100 candidate, you are likely to do so based on the strength of her peak work in the 80s. Watch that and go from there. But watch Jaguar Yokota instead.
  6. elliott


    Thank you for the recommendations! I'll start with these!
  7. elliott

    Dr. Cerebro

    I remember being a big fan like everybody else back in the early 2000s because of his wacky submissions and sweet mask. But I don't have anywhere close to a handle on him outside of whats in this thread. If anybody could do a primer with recommendations, I'd appreciate it!
  8. elliott

    Bob Orton Jr.

    Has much new Bob Orton Jr been discovered that might help his case? Always been a fan. The sort of guy I'd be inclined to vote for if there was more stuff.
  9. elliott

    Lioness Asuka

    This is a fair argument but if people are going to go this route I'd hope there is at least a modicum of consistency and people spend time watching and give equal weight to Bobby Eaton's career from 1993-2012 as they do his 80s prime for example. I'm not holding my breath that this will happen. There are plenty of people who have different phases of their career with more weight being given to more famous phases or primes. This is hardly unique to Lioness and I don't know why she should be held to a different standard. And like I said above, I don't even think Lioness is one of the best people from her company in her prime. I just think for the sake of her thread and anyone clicking on it, the time that made her an actual candidate deserves being highlighted instead of ignored. If you're going to dismiss Lioness as a candidate, do it based on not liking the AJW women stuff not the JD stuff literally no one has ever promoted. As for matches Crush Gals vs Devil Masami & Jaguar 6/28/84 Crush Gals vs Jumbo Hori & Yukari Ohmori 8/25/84 Crush Gals vs Lola Gonzalez & La Tarantula 10/6/84 Crush Gals vs Dump Matsumoto & Rossy Moreno 1/5/85 Crush Gals vs Jumping Bomb Angels 1/6/85 Crush Gals vs Dump Matumoto & Crane Yu 4/2/85 Lioness Asuka vs Chigusa Nagayo 4/7/85 Crush Gals vs Jumbo Hori & Yukari ohmori 4/25/85 Crush Gals vs Dump Matsumoto & Bull Nakano 5/25/85 Crush Gals vs Lola Gonzales & Rosa Maria 5/25/85 Lioness Asuka vs Jaguar Yokota 8/22/85 Crush Gals vs Dump Matsumoto & Bull Nakano 10/10/85 Lioness Asuka & Devil Masami vs Jumping Bomb Angels 2/15/86 Crush Gals vs Jumping Bomb Angles 3/20/86 Lioness Asuka vs Chigusa Nagayo 2/26/87 Lioness Asuka vs Yukari Ohmori 4/15/87 Lioness Asuka & Yukari Ohmori & Mika Suzuki vs Dump Matsumoto & Condor Saito & Judy Martin 4/27/87 Lioness Asuka vs Chigusa Nagayo 6/13/87 Crush Gals vs Jumping Bomb Angels 9/14/87 Crush Gals vs Marine Wolves 4/27/89
  10. elliott

    Lioness Asuka

    Flair was a bad choice because of the age and he's just a bad choice in general because he's Flair Age isn't the important factor. Take that out of it. Lots of wrestlers are awesome at one part of their career and good, average, disappointing and outright bad at other points. Some people can have a run that is so good that it makes them a candidate for the list based on that run alone. Take Sayama as an example. I'm not a fan of Sayama as Tiger Mask but in UWF 1.0 as Super Tiger I absolutely love what he's doing and he's just churning out matches that I love. The Super Tiger run alone makes him a candidate regardless of anything else that happened as Tiger Mask. I feel the same way about the Crush Gals run. Its so good it gets Lioness in contention and probably makes the list for that alone. That she turned into a garbage match wrestler sucks and it certainly is one of the things that prevents her from being a top tier candidate. But I'm not arguing for her as a top ten wrestler or anything like that. I'm saying she is a candidate who shouldn't be dismissed outright and especially shouldn't be dismissed outright based on the years that literally no one would argue are her best years. This is specifically why I'm trying to emphasize watching her 80s Crush Gals peak. There are people who aren't familiar with the Joshi candidates but this time around are wanting to make a good faith effort to watch them. There hasn't been much discussion about Lioness. 2016 the JOshi wrestlers were done a disservice and its still early in this projectIf someone who isn't familiar with Joshi clicks on Lioness' name and sees Jetlag dismissing her outright as terrible based on her JD and Arison work while ignoring the Crush Gals run they might be under the impression that the JD & Arison work is what people point to when they point to Lioness the great worker. It isn't. It wasn't. It never was. Watch the Crush Gals & 80s stuff. If people like that, then watch more and eventually that'll lead you to the JD & Arison stuff. Maybe you'll like it or maybe you'll hate it. I think that's the route that folks should take. Don't just start with the unseen work nobody has ever watched and dismiss her. Watch the stuff thats actually good first.
  11. elliott

    Kazunari Murakami

    Man I love some Kazunari Murakami. Just an amazing sneering prick. One of my all time favorite characters. I didn't vote for him in 2016 and I fucking blew it. Murakami is awesome. He's always a better mat-worker than I remember because when I think of him I just think of the glare.
  12. elliott

    Lioness Asuka

    Quoting myself here. Always a special moment. I wanted to explain more about what i mean here. Maybe it deserves its own thread. But I kinda think each candidate deserves their own explainer. I'm sure we'd all agree that not all candidates are equal and not all candidacy are the same. Some candidates are primarily candidates because of their peak. Others their longevity. Some because they were able to succeed all over the globe. Others because they figured out how to succeed in front of the same group of people week after week. Some are candidates because theyre awesome in TV matches reliably. Others may not have been reliable week in week out but always delivered on the big stage. Some people are candidates because they played one role better than anyone else. Other people are candidates because they succeeded in a variety of roles. Other's have a laundry list of great matches. While others made the most of the opportunities given and may not have the great match resume necessarily. Some candidates have everything you could ask for. These are the greatest of the greats. But most candidates are going to be more definable and more limited. Take Tommy Rogers. I wouldn't look at Tommy Rogers and say "I can't find a great singles main event. His mid 90s-2000s work when he was in his 30s was pretty disappointing. Not a candidate." That's a complete misrepresentation of who Rogers' is as a wrestler and as a top 100 candidate. You start with the Fantastics stuff because thats the bulk of the case. Unless someone comes in and is like "His mid 90s-2000s is awesome unhearlded hidden gem work. Tommy Rogers was great for 20 years!" Then you watch it and evaluate it on those terms. Yes we should try and get a whole picture of every single candidate. That should definitely be the goal. Its completely unfeasible, but sure. That's the goal. But I think its more important to understand what sort of candidate someone actually is. I don't think anyone would make the argument that Lioness is a longevity based candidate. If shes going to make your list, she going to make it on the strength of the Crush Gals run primarily. She's Tommy Rogers with a frustrating (to me) singles run. I don't see her as a top tier candidate or even a top tier Joshi wrestler. But shes a more than deserving candidate.
  13. elliott

    Lioness Asuka

    Lots of people have said they're voting for so and so based solely on their peak run. Yes everyone should try and get as full a picture as possible. But that's not what is happening here. Boiling her run down to her late 90s and 2000s JD and ARISON work and dismissing her based on that is a misrepresentation of what her candidacy is. I think it's important to point out what a candidates peak actually is and what sort of candidate they are. Anyone voting for her is likely to do so based primarily on the strength of her 80s run. Nobody has ever promoted her JD run or talked about it as a meaningful building block for her candidacy. Thats not her peak run. To dismiss her as a candidate based on that stuff is like saying Flairs not a candidate because he sucked after 1996. Or Misawa was disappointing in NOAH so hes not a candidate. Nobody who is voting for Flair is doing so bc of his mid 90s to 2000s work. Lioness is an 80s candidate. People need to watch that stuff first. That's what's important. Let people watch the stuff people have actually put over. Theres plenty of people to talk about and watch. We're already at the dumping on people at random phase? That sucks if so. Anyway I think Lioness is like the 8th best person in 80s AJW. But that's still the strength of her candidacy and that's what folks should know.
  14. elliott

    Lioness Asuka

    If people are gonna vote for Jim Londos based in 45minutes of footage, it's more than fair to skip the JD run and just watch her prime.
  15. elliott


    Even less discussion here than I remembered. I was a big fan 20 years ago but its been that long since I've really watched him. Its been about that long since I've been interested in his style, but I know he has a big reputation among some folks. So I feel like I should give him a shot. Can someone toss out like 5-10 matches to watch?