Matt D

I just don't get how logically he'd be in any other spot during their tag run. It's mind boggling. I lived through it but I'm going to have to go back and see just to sate my curiosity now. As for the rest, we're in the same boat, apparently. I'm pretty positive they do too, but none come to mind.

Generally, that's a role where aging former aces could really show their strength, though. Putting matches together, utilizing the bigger guy, controlling the heat, protecting yourself and minimizing your physical limitations, etc. You almost have to try to screw it up, or show a total lack of understanding of how wrestling works. Was he really that bad in the role?

Which is wildly frustrating because who he was teaming with and who they were wrestling. But wouldn't Bock's prime as a tag wrestler be earlier than what we have too. There have to be a ton of Flair TV tag matches. I do think we could learn a ton from Flair/Batista tag fancams if they exist. edit: It's late, and it's been a very tiring oh, seven weeks here, so I'm blanking, BUT, is there a heel Flair match like the Bock/Martel match where they both spend the back half of the match engrossed in bodypart selling? Bock would often remember to sell after coming back on offense for a little bit, but that was a match very much built with long-term selling in mind. I can't think of too many heel Flair matches like that right now (But again, I'm tired).

That's not super convincing. I'll be able to talk about the face stuff later, and might try to see some of his AJPW work. I've really liked most of the early match Bock stuff I've seen (like i go nuts for the Bock/Brunzel test of strength, nuts), but I also really love Flair's early match work. I think they're both great at it. To me, Bock's might be a bit more inventive but that might just be a lack of familiarity. I definitely think you can't short change the energy Bock brings to the Verne stadium match. His bursts of speed are very striking. I just saw him run from Greg Gagne with a chair in an 85 post-match and it was just this wild flash of motion. And there's the Wahoo match, sure. But no, he doesn't bump like Flair. But he still bumps both big and in a number of varied ways. I certainly haven't been bored by the Bock I've seen. Can you talk a little about Flair as a tag worker since that's been a surprisingly impressive element of Bock's work?

I'd like to see some of the Bock babyface work before I say too much. I also realize I've been fed mostly top notch Bock stuff and not the dregs. But I can give a preview of sorts of that eventual longer post, with but a few examples now and more later. This is going to be completely through my filter of watching wrestling, which judging from the comments I've seen is wildly different from a lot of you. I care way more about what wrestlers do and why they do them and how they do them and range and being able to go into a match and take a random minute stretch and see if it makes sense, and whether or not they do things for the sake of doing them or if they make sense in the context of a match. I care way more about what a wrestler does than if he has great matches. I will say this. I've already seen a variety in Bock that I can't say I've seen in Flair, more versatility in heel Bock than heel Flair. He plays a LOT of different roles, but they're all believable and all him. He is a very character driven wrestler. I also feel like there is far more thought to what Bock does in the ring than Flair. Flair definitely has a few different matches (the studio one vs the up and comer, for instance), and a lot of those, I've seen Bock do as well, very well. I think so many of the Bock matches on the AWA set have felt very different. When we hit the JCP set, will that be the case for Flair? They're both very good at working a hold and working from the bottom of a hold, making it entertaining. Both have GREAT facial expressions. Both interact with the crowd very well. Bock for instance sold the Weasel chants in a way I've never seen a Heenan charge do, and the use of the boring chant is one of the most brilliant things I've ever seen in wrestling. It's just an awareness. He knows what's going on. He knows how to maximize the moment. Bock often does this whole body selling as a match goes on, which i like way more than Flair's late match getting-his-stuff-in. I think Bock is better at foreshadowing and building things in matches and between matches. Flair has the legwork to build to the figure four which is a nice built in piece of a match that will make sense every time out, and he's good at it, but Bock switches things up a lot more. A good chunk of his matches have the KOTM spot, but it's usually done very logically and early enough in the match that it isn't just lazy. That he can use so obtuse an element in logical and heated ways is actually sort of impressive. So far, Bock has shown some really great sense of tag work and timing, but I haven't seen enough Flair tags lately. Flair might be a bit above in the energy and manic bumping, but Bock is pretty good at that too. Flair wins on "ACTION" but Bock holds up way better than his reputation would say. I don't know, Dylan. You've seen a lot more of both guys than I have (though I've seen a lot of Flair in my life). What do you think Flair does better? EDIT: Earlier in the note Tim L said that the big problem in comparison was that we didn't have a ton of footage of Bock in his prime, but I'm talking about what I've seen of Bock in the 80s. I'm comparing 80s Bock vs 80s Flair and there's a lot with Bock that I like more. EDIT #2: I'm also mainly looking from an in ring standpoint, not about drawing or about "Being the champ." Overall presence. WON HOF PLACEMENT, or whatever. I'm looking at the matches i've seen, though I admit I only have the high end stuff from the AWA set to look at, but there's SO much you can learn about Bock from those matches, so much.

Alright, well this place exists to clear up false talking points, so thanks. It always amazed me how over Ronnie was in front of the studio audience. WAY before the 87 run too.

They let Benoit wrestle on TV when he had the belt?

The world needs to see it, so I am glad. I've been watching in order except for the Blackwell turn.

Didn't Edge come back the night after Mania?

Pure curiosity. Did anyone go for the Wendi Richter and Joyce Grable vs Velvet Mcintyre and Judy Martin match from the same AWA All Star Wrestling show which had the 2/3 falls Buck+Steve O vs Sheiks match. It's kind of a crazy synchronized spotfest. Also, I haven't seen the commercials disc yet, but I sure as hell hope the Mad Dog Vachon Chicago Lake Liquors commercial made it on. "Local Beer, United States Beer, Canadian Beer, Imported Beer."

Do you put the guy who's just getting the belt for a Lifetime Achievement Award over at Wrestlemania 20 though? I know that it wasn't the top match on the card build-wise or draw-wise, but still. I do think the title meant more back then for Wrestlemania than it does now.

I realize the World title is different, but would Christian or Henry's reigns be considered "gold watch" moments.

Just in that we keep talking about him being most over and only one person mentioned the latino base (especially for smackdown). I'm not saying they're mutually exclusive, mind you, but still. I think that has to be one of the first things mentioned with Eddy. Was Benoit a draw in Canada?

Should we be downplaying the Hispanic audience here?

I really like his sort of ducking forward punch that I've seen him done after he hulks up for his coemback. He had a pretty good jumping back elbow. His clothesline could be good depending on who was eating it (Blackwell for instance). I think he was fairly good at interacting with the crowd. But in general, he doesn't seem very good in the 80s, no.

Good. I have AWA to focus on here, but I'll take a quick look to see if I had missed anything. The only thing I'd really fight for off the top of my head is the 12/28/90 MSG Piper vs Perfect match which is one of Curt's best in the WWF.

I do have a tendency to capitalize the occasional word when I'm excited.

Honestly, it shouldn't. Past MAYBE the LOD/Warrior Six Man which is fun and maybe worth a look there isn't really a set worthy WWF Demos match in 90. There's a great Colossal Connection match that happens a few days before the first of the year, but that wouldn't count. A lot less footage in 90 and a ton of what we do have is Smash/Crush. They just weren't on MSG shows (only on three, one being the six man, another the Orient Express match). A lot of the other avenues had dried up by 90. There are a TON of Hart Foundation vs Demos matches from throughout the year that weren't taped that are probably great, but the one that was taped is a Smash/Crush match and isn't nearly as good as people remember. But they feuded from Mania to Summerslam. It's a shame we don't have any of those. Likewise how the Colossal Connection feuded with Demos from the first of the year to Mania. If the December MSG match is any indication, they probably had some other really good ones. Demos vs Rockers (the Third MSG match) and Demos vs Tito/Brunzell (A PTW match) are both Smash/Crush and while they're both fine, the lack of Ax shows. Neither are close to set worthy. I need to watch Smash/Crush vs Bushwhackers but I don't have high hopes. There are some neat oddities I wish made tape like all the Shawn and/or Marty vs Smash matches. There's an Ax vs Animal match I'd be curious to see and certainly the Warrior Six man where Savage filled in for Ax. But none of this stuff was taped. They ran a lot of LOD vs Demolition and LOD/Warrior vs Demos matches during tapings, but most of those haven't been released as best as I know. Just the MSG and a few Demos vs LOD matches that aren't really worth seeing (most being Smash/Crush). I can go into more detail why I think the Summerslam or Orient Express matches aren't great, if anyone wants, but I don't know if it's necessary. Honestly, I think the best and most interesting Demos match in 90 is vs Baba/Andre. If anything goes on, that should I guess, maybe the Brother Love Show Turn, the Harts/Rockers SNME match with interference and maybe, if you can find one, a Perfect + Demolition pre-Survivor Series promo just for the oddity of Hennig with those three. The reuniting with Fuji is kind of cool too to see them with the Orient Express as a unit but it's hardly necessary. Just a bad luck year between the lack of taped matches in the Andre/Haku and Harts feuds and Ax going down with his condition/injury.

I need to look at WWF match listings and suggest some things. I thought you were further along in the process for some reason. I know I suggested at least a couple over in the DVDVR note but I can do better than that.

I feel like the Bulldogs were the poster children of heel in peril wrestling. They took way too much of a lot of their matches. It might have been more of a problem in their later run though.

I didn't do it.

Dylan, Can you elaborate on your "input-output" classification. Is it just a footage issue or is it the "great matches vs analyzed ringwork" argument.

Ventura?

He's not a machiavellian genius since 1) it sent Baby Doll into Dusty's arms where she could tell him all of Tully's tricks (not that it helped him as Tully won the National belt soon after) and 2) it was a hell of a lot of effort for basically worthless gain. He's more like a super villain with brilliant plans that are completely misguided.

He'd lost the US belt. He couldn't afford her tastes anymore, but he couldn't let himself be seen as crass and no longer a high roller and dump her for that reason. Buying JJ Suits cost a hell of a lot less than bankrolling Baby Doll.