French catch

[David Mantell]

On 10/26/2024 at 12:14 PM, David Mantell said:

Some English commentary versions of videos I've already posted.

On 10/1/2024 at 11:28 PM, David Mantell said:

I'm tempted to post this to the British thread as these are two Brits and two ITV veterans to boot but this took place in France for a French promoter so according to my rules this counts as French wrestling, the same as the French TV bouts of Bert Royal Vs Tony Oliver in the early 60s and Pete Roberts Vs Dave Bond in 1978 also both count as French.  Also because it follows on a theme I recently brought up of TBWs being sacrificed to bigger nastier heels -  Raymond O'Reilly Vs Hakan in Rumble recently (how's that for alliteration?) or Ian McGregor Vs Skull Murphy on mid 80s ITV. Here is another example.

McCoy was still considered the next Johnny Saint at this point although he had resigned his British Lightweight Championship and left All Star under a cloud after his dad King Ben was sacked after a tag match against Kendo Nagasaki and Blondie Barrett in July 1990 (long story going back to the sixties and animosity between Kendo and Benn's trainer Ernie Baldwin.). He got some World title matches with Johnny Saint on Reslo (with his ex boss Brian Dixon refereeing) and had he not quit in 1993 to go into the roofing trade (just as Kendo was retiring the second time) might well have become the new World champion in the late 90s some time.

He does get to do a lot of his counters and reversals on Scrubber but Daly just sandbags it all before going for a Knockout win after a splash.  If Kid could have tripped Daly and got him down on the mat, things could have got really interesting.

Add Knockouts - To anyone who STILL doesn't believe they were considered more prestigious than pins or submissions in Britain/Europe, please note that Daly could have stayed put after the splash and got a three count but instead stood up and got a ten count because a Knockout win made a more emphatic statement of DESTROYING an opponent than a pinfall win.

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Something I didn't notice before - Flesh Gordon leads fans in chants of Papa Doux Mais Mais, the chant synonymous with his tag partner nearly a decade earlier, Walter Bordes. 

Clearly Pappa Doux Mais Mais was just becoming a generic thing to shout at wrestling shows.  There were people in Dudley last Saturday chanting "easy easy" 17 years after Big Daddy died.

[David Mantell]

 

On 5/2/2024 at 1:29 PM, ingridguerci94 said:

On 4/20/2024 at 9:10 AM, David Mantell said:

Transmitted 11th March 1979, filmed 5 months earlier:

It is fascinating to witness Richard and Angelito joining forces. Back in 1971, each of them had at least one remarkable fight that left a lasting impression. Their collaboration now promises to bring the same level of excitement and skill that marked their individual battles in the past.

Angelito's one night stand (or swim) as a Mechant and as tag partner of regular archenemy over 20+ years  "Blouson Noir/Marquis/Travesti Man/Monsieur" Jacky Richard back when he was plain heelJacky Richard in trunks and boots. What sort of heel does Angelito make and how do he and JR fare as a team?

To answer the second question, not too badly considering they lose 2-1, they get on with the job and there is no real acknowledgement of their more normal antipathy.  As for the first, Angelito is your extravagant cocky Lanny Poffo heel  who has the skill and grace but rubs your nose in it. He has all his regular technical moves which he exchanges with Les Bleus.  He also uses his skill with the ropes to avoid ending up in the water, slingshotting himself back in the ring. Richard meanwhile plays the roughhouse heel mainly reliant on brawling. Angelito gradually factors in more dirty wrestling as the match wears on.

At one point Khader Hassouni, who has obviously been studying the George Kidd/Johnny Saint style since his world title match with Saint on 1977 FA Cup Final World Of Sport, does the Kidd/Saint(/Vasilis Montopoulis) ball. Poking out extremities for Richard to grab. Angelito who knows this trick tags in and does a ball of his own, only for Hassouni to kick him in the pants (which should actually have got him an Avertisement but it's Sherrif Delaporte reffing.)

Angelito concedes a neat folding press opening fall to Hassouni and Corne gets knocked in the water while Richard pins Hassouni.  The bad guys go on a dunking rampage, throwing both Bons and Delaporte in. Delaporte is a strong swimmer but a fierce man and he deals out justice his own way, first working with Les Bons to get Richard pinned for a decider then press slamming Angelito in the drink before collaring Richard and chucking him in too then repeatedly knocking both back in as they try to reboard the ring. Good guys and Good guy ref raise hands in victory.

[David Mantell]

Marc Mercier's Memoirs published:

[David Mantell]

On 8/28/2020 at 11:26 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

Warnia de Zarzecki vs. Fred Magnier (aired 12/10/73)

We get about 5 minutes of this. de Zarzecki is still going strong in the 70s. I've gotta give Magnier props as he has more entertaining bumps into the pool than most wrestlers. 

Roger Delaporte vs. Marcel Montreal (aired 12/10/73)

This was a swimming pool match, which is just about the pits when it comes to French catch. For the majority of the match, they ignore the pool, but it's only worth watching for the sake of an older Delaporte, not because of anything they do in the ring. Delaporte takes a dip in the pool, woo-hoo. 

 

Swimming pool matches were just a part of French wrestling culture and have to be accepted for what they were, just as the use of "baths halls" (local council pools temporary boarded up during winter months) was part of the furniture in 50s/60s Britain.  Pools stayed in use all the year round in France so floating rings were were a good way to adapt these venues to host wrestling shows. This one goes back far enough to predate the INA's video recorder and only be preserved on B/W overseas sales print, which shows you how long running a "gimmick" they were.  Whatever else, they were not some kind  of barrel-scraping gimmick match like mud wrestling.

I'm not just biased because of my childhood dream about "water wrestling" which turns out to have been conceptually identical to Catch A L'Eau

About 5 years before Angelito and Richard had their fun pitching no nonsense referee Roger Delaporte into the pool before being made to pay for it, here he is getting the same treatment in his old capacity as France's number one Mechant. Andre Bollet had retired from a car accident a year or two earlier otherwise this would be a two singles rematch of that Jan 1969 surviving colour tape bout; instead we get Magnier in Andre's place. (The commentator mentions that these days Delaporte is that teaming with Cheri Bibi.)

Referee is Firmin, valet of Roger Duranton, sixties answer to Paul "the Butler" Butin/Claude "Best Boy" Blanchard. Apart from the aforementioned water bumps by Magnier, it's just the generic brawling final minutes of a match where they just Manchette each other while waiting for the seconds to count down.

Delaporte is old and grey and nearly ready to turn Arbitre but pulls off a good turn as a grumpy old Vieux Pontoufle (the French HATE old men.). He hunches up to oversell pain from bumps and cowers out the way of Manchette bursts. At one point the commentator speculates if Delaporte has rheumatism from his old age.  Quite the opposite of the Sheriff Roger Delaporte we would soon come to know. Muscleman Montreal has the strength advantage. As Montreal is a power wrestler and Delaporte an old guy, there isn't much (any?) in the way of flipping and somersaulting out of holds, armbars and later front chanceries and hammerlocks and a long running rear headlock are worked on the mat for long periods.  

Montreal 's face comeback curiously consists of chokes on the ropes and suchlike di to ty wrestling. Warned by Firman Montreal eventogets fed up and throws the ex stooge into the drink, followed by Delaporte, spitting water like a Dolphin. Montreal claims victory but is DQ'd. In retribution he throws Firmin back in the pool.  Delaporte takes the float back but staggers and falls off.  Actually there seems to be a lot of tropes at work here involving the Chiottes Arbitres and it  being IK for last Bons to beat up on them.  Al this four years before Guy Mercier and horrid little man Michel Saulnier started doing that routine.  

Imagine if the WWF had held a swimming pool show in 1988 and Miss Elizabeth had been thrown in the pool - or better still had sportingly jumped in in her best frock. Then again, remember the 1986 SNME sketch with Savage and Jesse where Randy announces "I'm gonna teach this woman how to swim!" then pitches her off a bridge into his pool.

 

 

[David Mantell]

3 minutes ago, David Mantell said:

(the French HATE old men.)

No kidding. Have a listen to this nasty little tale from the 1890s Paris music halls. later an international hit in the 1930s

 

 

[ohtani's jacket]

Swimming pool matches are the worst. There is no defense for them. 

Case closed.

[David Mantell]

2 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Swimming pool matches are the worst. There is no defense for them. 

Case closed.

Why?

[ohtani's jacket]

It's self-evident. 

[David Mantell]

5 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

It's self-evident. 

I don't see why.  A watery ringside would solve a lot of problems in AEW for a start rather than have botched aerial spots ending in hard landing and career shortening injuries.  However since no one in France was doing triple somersaults off the top turnbuckle, you can't argue that the floating ring interfered with anyone's balance.

The pools were quite nice modern urban sports palaces which looked rather good on TV.  I particularly liked the outdoor pool for the Mercier brothers Vs Albert Sanniez/Mario Petrolini from La Derniere Manchette 1984 with the sun setting in the background, very picturesque. The water made a good crowd barrier to stop fans attacking heels.

Plus it was just part of the culture over there. People in France in the 60s/70s/80s accepted swimming pools (and the odd lake in the park) as natural places to hold professional wrestling shows. It was not some kind of gimmick like mud wrestling (after it broke from its roots in traditional Hindu wrestling in the soil), it was just taken for granted as normal.

Plus I had the same idea myself asleep in bed one night as a child, so feel somewhat proprietorial about "Water Wrestling" as as schoolfriend of mine, who showed up in the dream, named it in the dream.

[David Mantell]

On 3/31/2020 at 4:01 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

Le Petit Prince vs. Bobby Genele (aired 5/22/66)

This was an early television appearance by Le Petit Prince. Apparently, his first televised match was against Jean Ferre (Andre the Giant.) The Prince was from Audincourt in Eastern France. His father was Swiss and his mother was Italian. He came from a background in gymnastics. From all accounts, he won many gymnastics titles and was selected to represent France at the Olympics but was forced to withdraw due to injury. Fortunately, he also had a passion for Greco-Roman wrestling, and together with his younger brothers, he developed a style of artistic wrestling that mixed wrestling with acrobatics.  The brothers would try their luck at so-called "wrestling huts" at patronal feasts in the Franche-Comte area where they grew up and later in the Paris region. I don't really know what these wrestling huts were. I'm not sure if they involved taking on a hooker of if they involved some type of worked wrestling performance. In any event, that was where the Prince was discovered. As I mentioned the other day, he was discovered by the manager, Robert Lageat, who was one of the big matchmakers in Paris along with Étienne Siry and Maurice Durand. Originally, he took the stage name Alberic d'Ericourt. You can hear the commentator and ring announcer refer to him by that name during the match. Le Petit Prince was a nickname that Couderc gave him. Bobby Genele was a skinny-looking kid who didn't like being made fun of by d'Ericourt's fancy moves. So he started beating on him. The Prince was in his first year as a pro, so he wasn't as polished as he'd become. But this was still entertaining.

"Un combatte des stylists" says the announcer early on an that's what we get at first. LPP has all the traditional French moveset including a backwards rather than forwards roll and a neat trick where he does a ballet style pirrouette to upgrade a wrist lever into a back hammerlock as well as an escape from a standing full nelson by dropping down and sliding the arms out (I've got an old Spanish wrestling textbook which describes this in text and photos but this is the first time I've seen footage of that escape being done.) Prince is in stockinged feet (although he wears walking shoes to the ring.). Genele at one point adverts a LPP rollout by patting him on the bottom to make him roll back into the hold!

Genele has a definite power advantage yanking LPP this way and that by the arm before he he could counter. Eventually this starts to include some rulebreaking to maintain his advantage and is duly chastised by the referee. When Prince gets holds of his ownsuch as a headscissor, Genele goes for the ropes - major heat in Europe of the "you coward" variety.  Prince eventually sends Genele crashing to ringside, then gets him in a Frank Gotch toehold. Genele escapes and kicks a downed Prince before breaking out Les Manchettes.  Prince hits back with Manchettes of his own and a headbutt to the stomach in the corner. 

Things get more scientific again, Genele even does a decent toupee on Prince. Prince takes things to the mat with headscissors and armscissors.  Genele eventually reverts back to the rough stuff including attacks on the mat.  Prince brawls back, then pulls out a mid ring sunset flip for the one required fall. The defeated Genele gets a shot in from behind before Prince dropkicks him out of the ring.

As with the Michel Falempin bout, this starts as a good wrestling bout before turning into quite a fight.  Genele is quite the thuggy young heel.

[David Mantell]

On 5/1/2020 at 12:43 AM, ohtani's jacket said:

Le Petit Prince vs. Michael Falempin (aired 5/27/66)

Andre was introduced to the crowd before this match. Le Petit Prince was easily the best thing to come out of French catch in the 1960s. He was still a rookie here, still trying to put on some extra pounds. But what a breath of fresh air after those rubbish matches. The thing I love about the Prince is that he doesn't make superhero comebacks. He sells a beating and fights his way back. The more I watch of him, the more I'm convinced that he should be in the conversation for best light weight ever. 

As with the Genele bout this starts off as a stylish technical bout before Falempin gets nasty and starts attacks on the mat.  Prince keeps things technical as long as he can.  Eventually Falempin gets really nasty, stomps Prince out of the ring and earns himself two Avertisements.  All rather disconcerting is you mostly know Falempin from his later clean tag team with Jean Corne.  Unlike with Genele. Prince forces Falempin back onto the technical straight and narrow.   Prince has a good variant of the George Kidd/Johnny Saint ball but Falempin lifts him up and pitches him to ringside. Prince finally gets a series of Planchette Japonaises and a sunset flip for the winner.  Falempin is no more sportsmanly than Genele, refusing a handshake and wandering off. Couderc tries an interview but Prince is  mobbed by ringside fans.

 I'll concede Prince is good as an American style babyface but this isn't really what I was hoping to see when I saw his name on the video listing. Perhaps there were viewers in 1977 who'd missed Albert Sanniez's recent  heel turn and ended up feeling the same way after tuning in to his and Prince's singles bout that year.

 

 

[David Mantell]

On 11/11/2024 at 5:11 PM, David Mantell said:

I don't see why.  A watery ringside would solve a lot of problems in AEW for a start rather than have botched aerial spots ending in hard landing and career shortening injuries.  However since no one in France was doing triple somersaults off the top turnbuckle, you can't argue that the floating ring interfered with anyone's balance.

The pools were quite nice modern urban sports palaces which looked rather good on TV.  I particularly liked the outdoor pool for the Mercier brothers Vs Albert Sanniez/Mario Petrolini from La Derniere Manchette 1984 with the sun setting in the background, very picturesque. The water made a good crowd barrier to stop fans attacking heels.

Plus it was just part of the culture over there. People in France in the 60s/70s/80s accepted swimming pools (and the odd lake in the park) as natural places to hold professional wrestling shows. It was not some kind of gimmick like mud wrestling (after it broke from its roots in traditional Hindu wrestling in the soil), it was just taken for granted as normal.

Plus I had the same idea myself asleep in bed one night as a child, so feel somewhat proprietorial about "Water Wrestling" as as schoolfriend of mine, who showed up in the dream, named it in the dream.

I've put out a request for a native opinion on this.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1188513425037928/posts/que-pensez-vous-du-catch-a-leaucatch-a-la-piscinegimmique-degeulasse-ou-aspect-i/1610115159544417

EDIT: Plantin deleted it. Ah well....

[ohtani's jacket]

Maybe Bob hates swimming pool matches as well. 

[David Mantell]

1 hour ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Maybe Bob hates swimming pool matches as well. 

Nah, he just hates other people posting on his precious FB group. 

Especially not videos, photos or links "stop ; lés lutteurs francais ont leurs documents"

[David Mantell]

H's (re) posted a poster with Catch Sur L'Eau on it, so I've posted a comment underneath "Le Catch Sur L'eau - que pensez vous de cela?"  See where that gets us.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1188513425037928/posts/1610588352830431 

(It's for the same match as above with the Angelito/Jacky pareja increible 

On 11/1/2024 at 3:59 PM, David Mantell said:

Transmitted 11th March 1979, filmed 5 months earlier:

 

[David Mantell]

Bob says "faut savoir nager" ("Must know how to swim")

I've mentioned to him your dislike of swimming pool matches.  We'll see if he gives any insights.

[Matt D]

I think 2/3rds of the swimming pool matches are lovely.

[David Mantell]

4 hours ago, Matt D said:

I think 2/3rds of the swimming pool matches are lovely.

I get the impression it was just something fans and the general public in France took for granted. I wonder if they also did boxing in floating rings?

[David Mantell]

On 6/30/2020 at 12:22 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

Jacky Corn vs. Der Henker (aired 12/12/70)

I thought Der Henker would be some huge stiff, but he was actually the same height as Corn. He looked like a decent worker, but he was a masked guy getting a push, and his first priority was to put Corn away. Which he did with authority.

 

On 3/24/2020 at 1:27 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

Gilbert Leduc vs. Bert Mychel (aired 12/12/70 or 4/12/71)

Gilbert Leduc was one of the greatest wrestlers that France has known. Nicknamed "The Gentleman of the Ring," he was a long time European and World Champion. I guess he was comparable to a guy like Mike Marino, who was a perennial champion and a cornerstone of the professional game. His specialty was "La Toupie," which was a vertical escape from a heads scissors. Apparently, he could get nine rotations on his head spin, with legend having it that no other wrestler could get close to that number. Bert Mychel was an amateur wrestler who competed at the 1960 and 1964 Olympics. You can imagine the catch that these two put on. The first match was a gentlemanly bout of catch with both men saluting each other. 

Der Henker (German for "The Hangman") was supposedly a German who had come West of the Rhine. In fact he was a Spaniard who have come north of three Pyrenees after travelling a fair bit else of the World - Oscar Verdu, aka Crusher Verdu, formerly in the WWWF under both Lou Albano and Tony Angelo.  Still under his Henker hood, he would have a French Heavyweight title win in the early 80s. This run would last until 1974 at least, with Par Roach confronting him and Daniel Schmidt after an ill gotten consolation pin.

Back in 1970,  it's a slow moving bout with lots of waiting around in holds until Jacky's dad throws in lhe towel after a reverse piledriver. Jacky gets carried off,  Pere Corne is interviewed (and refuses to face the camera) says his son was in no state to continue, blames the referee. Crowd are spitting heat at Der Henker, the Chiotte Arbitre and any other poor soul.

Bout 2 is joined in progress, some selling noises and a knockout count and we fade up to the bout. Le Dec spends a long time on an arm extension on Mychell.  LeDuc uses his toupee to get out of the hold. Mychell offers his hand but has an angry expression, or is that just his rest face?  LeDuc does the toupee again twice in the more conventional cross scissor form that everyone else in France (and even a few Brits) did.  Bert works Gilbert over with a bodyscissors.  LeDuc tries a pin attempt and wristlock in the scissors but to no avail. He eventually drags his way out inch by inch like Johnny Saint. They then exchange Manchettes. 

Mychell gets a headscissors. Three times Le Duc tries to toupee out, The fourth and fifth times, he lands on his knees and escapes but Bert just puts the scissor back on.  On the sixth go, Bert starts to pull him back, but Gilbert spins round into a cross press for a 2 count and they agree to try something else.

Similar situations involving a standing full nelson, a Boston Crab and another bodyscissors which Mychell counters into a single leg toehold. That sort of thing. Skill but not speed. Audience claps respectfully. Action picks up a bit including three neat blockbuster supleex from Bert.  A fourth is countered by a Le Duc side chancery. He goes for a pin but it ends up in the ropes and a Manchette battle breaks out.  Bert flips LeDuc neck first into the ropes but he gets up at 4., puls out one more Manchette, goes for a slam and cross press for the pin.  They hug and LeDuc offers Mychell a swig of his Perrier bottle. He partakes heavily. Apparently this was a World Light Heavyweight title bout, champion LeDuc is presented with the belt and a bouquet of flowers just like in title matches in Britain.

Two fairly solid if not action packed bouts. Lutte Academique as the commentator on the Bert-Gilbert bout put it.  Modern fans would probably slag these bouts off for their "lack of work rate." In theory I say to hell with them but in practice there were skil-and-speed merchants out their who leave the American "booo-ring" smart mark brigade without a leg to stand on.   At least with these bouts the long running hols accusation does have some basic validity.

I seem to recall Mychell was on World Of Sport a couple of years later, I shall have to look it up.

 

[ohtani's jacket]

9 hours ago, Matt D said:

I think 2/3rds of the swimming pool matches are lovely.

The parts where they row out to the ring or where they swim back to poolside?

[David Mantell]

1 minute ago, ohtani's jacket said:

The parts where they row out to the ring or where they swim back to poolside?

Standard pitch the heels to ringside only with added wetness. Apart from their boots, the wrestlers are dressed for a swim anyway.

Most swimming pool matches are just like normal matches only with a floating rather than a secured ring. *Shrug*

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't think Crusher Verdu is Der Henker, fwiw. Der Henker was a gimmick that had been used by Goldstein. I have no idea who is under the mask, but he has a far better build than Verdu. 

[David Mantell]

1 hour ago, ohtani's jacket said:

I don't think Crusher Verdu is Der Henker, fwiw. Der Henker was a gimmick that had been used by Goldstein. I have no idea who is under the mask, but he has a far better build than Verdu. 

Hisaru Tenabe seems to think otherwise:

https://www.wrestling-titles.com/europe/france/fr-h.html

[ohtani's jacket]

That's from a decade later. Verdu did end up working in Germany a fair bit in the later part of his career, but as I said, Der Henker was a pre-existing gimmick and we've seen different wrestlers don the mask gimmicks before. 

[Phil Lions]

Der Henker is one of the more amusing gimmicks to me. Durand saw the success of L'Homme Masque so with Le Bourreau de Béthune he created his own L'Homme Masque but instead of black made him red. Goldstein then returned the favour by introducing Der Henker a.k.a. Le Masque Rouge. In short, Der Henker was an imitation of an imitation, which I find amusing.

And that guy in the video is definitely not Verdu. He had a different build. That said, based on photos and videos that I've seen, more than one person did the Der Henker gimmick over the years, which is par for the course for France. It's certainly possible for Verdu to have been one of the Der Henkers at some point.