What could have been

[goodhelmet]

In the WO News thread, teke mentioned Owen breaking Austin's neck. Just recently, while compiling matches for the Hart Foundation compilation, I rewatched this match. This was heading toward classic status until the ending which was one of the most brutal non-gimmicked spots I have ever seen. Well, this started the juices flowing and made me think what direction this would have led both men had the accident not have happened.

 

First off, after the accident, it was known that Austin did not want to work a program with Owen because of the injury. HBK did not want to work a program because of the Bret hart situation. This led to Owen being stuck in a HHH feud and eventually midcard hell until his demise. I always wondered why Austin was so bitter towards Owen Hart and found my answer, in of all places, a TV Guide interview. In the interview, Austin never mentions Owen by name, but basically said that Owen was very nonchalant about the situation and didn't call when he was in the hospital or apologize or even acknowledge the issue privately. Take the source with a grain of salt but it made perfect sense especially since Austin-Owen could have been huge esp. after the accident. It also bothered me that in the Owen tribute show, it was Austin raising a beer to Owen when Owen was known to live clean and not be happy with the direction austin was taking the company. Even then, I felt that the tribute was forced and fake.

 

So, if Owen never broke Austin's neck, what could have happened? Would Austin-Owen have been a program worth pursuing? After the Hart Foundation debacle, would Austin have willingly worked a long program to pick up where Austin-Bret left off? Would Austin have pressured HBK to do what is right for business and work a program with Owen? would the WWE style as we know it today be a be drastically different with less brawling and more emphasis on matwork since Austin excelled at that style of wrestling? Would he still have the same drawing ability since the brawling style was s popular? Would nothing have changed? What is your take?

[Guest brian]

I think the most important thing is it could have saved his life. Everything else is secondary, by a few lengths.

[goodhelmet]

I was going to bring that up but really didn't want to focus on that. If it wasn't Owen up there, it would have been some other mid-carder that Vince would have stuck in a superhero gimmick even if it wasn't the Blue Blazer. Think today's Hurricane and Rosey. A tragedy was going to happen. Instead, I think from a wrestling standpoint, it could have had many different implications and that is what I prefer to focus on.

[Loss]

I always found it funny that Owen acted the exact same way toward Austin that Austin did toward Chono. Austin never called Chono to check on him by all accounts, and he gave him the exact same injury in a match they had in 1992.

 

Anyway, yes, I do think the style would have been different ... for a while. I don't know how long it would have lasted though. The guy everyone on the roster seems to be trying to wrestle like these days is Shawn Michaels, and I think the current main event style is more a mirror of Hogan's working style than Austin's working style, with the babyfaces starting out strong with the heels looking like doofuses, only for the heel to gain the advantage through cheating and the face to make a big no-selling comeback. This is what all of Batista's PPV title defenses have been. You don't see much of the main event brawling anymore unless you're seeing a gimmick match.

[Guest EastCoastJ]

I think that part of the heat on Owen from Steve Austin had to do with the fact that prior to the match, Austin was really nervous about taking the tombstone. Austin was really adamant about Owen dropping to his knees instead of sitting out for the tombstone. Owen was insistent that he would protect Austin and the two supposedly went back and forth over it, until finally Austin caved and told Owen he was trusting him. Obviously, Owen should have fallen to his knees instead of sitting out. If I was Austin and Owen hadn't called me every day while I rehabilitated, I probably would have been a little irritated too, but then again Owen probably had no idea what to say to him and he was obviously a really good guy.

 

Honestly, I think that if the program would have continued, it probably would have been worse for Austin's rise (which I thought benefited from being off TV and not wrestling for a while), and Owen would have ended up right back in the shadow of Bret. He was a good worker, but never had the aura or personality in and out of the ring as Bret.

[Ray]

People always focus on Austin's injury as the sole reason for his change in ring style, but it's really not true. A lot of the change was related to his character, his status in the promotion, and the type of opponents he faced.

 

In 1998 Austin became the undisputed top babyface and a mega-draw. How did he do that? By playing a tough-as-hell badass redneck brawler. Why would such a character do matwork? People weren't paying to see him work headlock counters, they were paying to see him kick ass and raise hell.

 

In 1997 he's working with Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, and Owen Hart. In 1998 he's working with Undertaker, Kane, Mick Foley, and a green Rock. Not exactly the type to work that style.

 

 

And Austin did not excell at matwork. I'm one of Austin's biggest fans, but I have no idea how this idea got started or why it perpetuates. He was basically average, and I can't think of many matches where he looked any better than "good" on the mat. Honestly - I'm not saying the injury was a good thing - but one could almost say the change in style forced him to become a better storyteller and focus more on characterization than physical work, which is a good thing for someone who was physically limited even before the neck injury.

[goodhelmet]

I might agree with you on the Austin thing except that he more than held his own with Ricky Steamboat and Bret Hart in their feuds, two guys who excelled at working on the mat.

 

Also, I have to disagree with you on WHY Austin became as over as he did. It had nothing to do with him brawling and almost everything to do with his out-of-ring persona. Plus, while he was gaining momentum prior to the McMahon feud, it was with McMahon that really propelled him to the op. yes, you believed he was a dirt redneck with an axe to grind. People rallied behind him and lived vicariously through his actions. Brawling had nothing to do with it. And quite frankly, with a few exceptions here and there (WM13), Austin's style did change dramatically after the accident. He may have had to work within his limitations but it wasn't always an improvement.

[Ray]

I might agree with you on the Austin thing except that he more than held his own with Ricky Steamboat and Bret Hart in their feuds, two guys who excelled at working on the mat.

Most of the Austin-Steamboat matches are "good" at best, and Austin looked *awful* when he tried to hang with Bret on the mat at the start of the Survivor Series match.

 

Also, I have to disagree with you on WHY Austin became as over as he did. It had nothing to do with him brawling and almost everything to do with his out-of-ring persona. Plus, while he was gaining momentum prior to the McMahon feud, it was with McMahon that really propelled him to the op. yes, you believed he was a dirt redneck with an axe to grind. People rallied behind him and lived vicariously through his actions. Brawling had nothing to do with it.

How can you say that? He was tough-as-nails redneck rebel. His style had to change to reflect that. A badass rebels doesn't try to win mat contests, he opens a can of whoop ass on you.

 

And quite frankly, with a few exceptions here and there (WM13), Austin's style did change dramatically after the accident. He may have had to work within his limitations but it wasn't always an improvement.

His style changed for the better, with more focus on character/story and less on attempts to work holds. His *matches* in 1997 may have been better than his matches in 1998, but that's because he wasn't working with BRET HART anymore, not because his style worsened.

[goodhelmet]

Most of the Austin-Steamboat matches are "good" at best, and Austin looked *awful* when he tried to hang with Bret on the mat at the start of the Survivor Series match.

I disagree strongly about the Survivor Series amtch. I did a review at the old SNKT and it is one of the strongest performances for any WWF match. Everything in that match seemed to click just right. I prefer that to the Mania match any day of the week. Surprisingly, I gave Austin the credit for the match working so well, not Bret Hart.

 

How can you say that? He was tough-as-nails redneck rebel. His style had to change to reflect that. A badass rebels doesn't try to win mat contests, he opens a can of whoop ass on you.

It still doesn't account for you saying that his change of style is why he became so over. It had hardly anything to do with the change of style but the storylines. Shit, the basic character was the same at KOR 96 as it was at Over the Edge 98. It was the storyline and involvement with McMahon. The brawling might have been a direct result of who he was forced to wrestle in 1998 but it didn't stop him from leaning on it when he didn't have to work that style. Maybe he became lazy or maybe that was what was expected of him or maybe he was just too limited but he could have mixed it up in the Benoit matches, the Angle matches or even that horrible Flair match. He chose not to.

 

His style changed for the better, with more focus on character/story and less on attempts to work holds. His *matches* in 1997 may have been better than his matches in 1998, but that's because he wasn't working with BRET HART anymore, not because his style worsened.

The only significant Bret Hart-Austin matches in 1997 were BRAWLS. I already considered the possibility that the WWF was forced to change because thier premiere wrestler, most capable of having a "mat" classic was screwed at Survivor Series. On a personal level, I prefer when wrestlers work holds and focus on body parts and do logical things to tell their story. It can be done successfully and to perfection without all the trappings of "sports entertainment". You can also have a brawl that is deeper and means more than just running around the crowd (as too many WWF matches fell back on during its peak). You can do your signature spots within the context of the match and still have the intense "I hate your guts" atmosphere. I think the WWF failed to realize this in most of 1998 and 1999 and it wasn't just because Bret Hart up and left.

[Ray]

I disagree strongly about the Survivor Series amtch. I did a review at the old SNKT and it is one of the strongest performances for any WWF match.

In the second half, yes. Once they get past the matwork at the start it's great.

 

Everything in that match seemed to click just right.

The opening with boring, clumsy matwork did not click at all and made no sense for the situation. Austin despised Bret and talked about kicking his ass. He didn't do that. Instead he tried to work holds and the result was ugly.

 

I prefer that to the Mania match any day of the week.

I certainly wouldn't. Mania 13 is a vastly more dramatic match and they get things right from minute one, unlike SSeries, which takes a long time to get going. It baffles me that anyone would choose SSeries over Mania.

 

It still doesn't account for you saying that his change of style is why he became so over.

I didn't say that and that's certainly not what I meant.

 

Shit, the basic character was the same at KOR 96 as it was at Over the Edge 98. It was the storyline and involvement with McMahon.

No offense, but you couldn't be *more* wrong on this. In 1996 "Stone Cold" was a violent psychopathic heel. A total loner who didn't give a shit about anyone. In 1998 he was a beer-drinking redneck rebel babyface who sang along with the crowd. VERY different characters.

 

The brawling might have been a direct result of who he was forced to wrestle in 1998 but it didn't stop him from leaning on it when he didn't have to work that style. Maybe he became lazy or maybe that was what was expected of him or maybe he was just too limited but he could have mixed it up in the Benoit matches, the Angle matches or even that horrible Flair match. He chose not to.

It has nothing to do with laziness or doing what's expected. He stopped doing matwork because he didn't need to because he became a better storyteller and focused on that.

 

When I watch Austin-Rock from Mania 17, I don't think "Man, why doesn't this have more MATWORK~!"

 

The only significant Bret Hart-Austin matches in 1997 were BRAWLS. I already considered the possibility that the WWF was forced to change because thier premiere wrestler, most capable of having a "mat" classic was screwed at Survivor Series.

Do you not see the difference between working with Bret Hart - in ANY type of match - and working with Kane?

 

a personal level, I prefer when wrestlers work holds and focus on body parts and do logical things to tell their story.

Even when matwork is the exact opposite of what a character should do?

[Guest Some Guy]

How can you say that? He was tough-as-nails redneck rebel. His style had to change to reflect that. A badass rebels doesn't try to win mat contests, he opens a can of whoop ass on you.

It still doesn't account for you saying that his change of style is why he became so over. It had hardly anything to do with the change of style but the storylines. Shit, the basic character was the same at KOR 96 as it was at Over the Edge 98. It was the storyline and involvement with McMahon. The brawling might have been a direct result of who he was forced to wrestle in 1998 but it didn't stop him from leaning on it when he didn't have to work that style. Maybe he became lazy or maybe that was what was expected of him or maybe he was just too limited but he could have mixed it up in the Benoit matches, the Angle matches or even that horrible Flair match. He chose not to.

 

I think the brawling was why the matches got over so well. Austin was very good at it and it is a lot easier for fans (especially all the new fans) to understand a straight brawl than to sit through and appreciate some one working a headlock like Stemboat did.

 

Austin always timed his comebacks and hope spots very well and the fans popped like crazy for it. The style was way over and it helped save his body. I can't blame him for going that direction. I do wish that the rest of the company didn't follow him downt hat path, though.

[goodhelmet]

I don't want to let this post die so I will only say that I am rewatching the WM13 and SS96 matches back to back before I respond to Kawada's post.