Voices of Wrestling - WrestleKingdom 8 Review

[W2BTD]

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/01/0...ngdom-8-review/

 

Fun show with some great matches. Can't stop thinking about how fun it was. Just a real good time, five+ hours that flew by.

 

Have a feeling it did great business. Twitter was on fire. Tone of buzz. And Meltzer from his live report had this to say:

 

The number of people who have logged into this already is more than all but the top tier of UFC & WWE PPV shows, and that's before the main event.

[Dylan Waco]

I think the reaction to this show has been interesting.

 

Following the comments in real time a couple of places it seemed to me that people were looking for things to enjoy about the show for the first half to 2/3rds of it and the entrances were what people latched on to. That sounds like I'm shitting on the show, but I'm not, because that sort of fierce brand loyalty/ability to really get something out of a show that might have been disappointing in other ways is something that only the WWE has really been able to tap into over the years.

 

The people who were hardcore New Japan fans largely seemed to like the show (though in real time, Meltzer was clearly lower on this than could have been expected coming in), though no one is talking about this show they were talking about WK7. Only a couple of people who I expected to hate the show have seen it and commented on it, and both were lukewarm at best which is what I figured. I know probably eight or nine people who I would describe as either first timers, casuals, or middle of the road on NJPW who have already watched and commented this year. These are the people whose response I will be most interested in in the coming days, and I expect to hear more from them. Right now the consensus I'm hearing from them is that it was a show that had a Wrestlemania like atmosphere, but the crowd seemed flat, and that kept them from getting as deeply invested in the matches as they might have normally. Kind of an odd statement given how flat Mania crowds have been at times in recent years, but it's there.

 

I haven't watched the show yet myself. I had originally planned to order it live this year, and already had the day off for it, but the lineup was so horribly unappealing to me on paper I couldn't justify dropping thirty bucks on it. I am looking forward to seeing it though, as NJPW really has succeeded at making it feel like a must see show.

[W2BTD]

I think the reaction to this show has been interesting.

 

Following the comments in real time a couple of places it seemed to me that people were looking for things to enjoy about the show for the first half to 2/3rds of it and the entrances were what people latched on to. That sounds like I'm shitting on the show, but I'm not, because that sort of fierce brand loyalty/ability to really get something out of a show that might have been disappointing in other ways is something that only the WWE has really been able to tap into over the years.

 

The people who were hardcore New Japan fans largely seemed to like the show (though in real time, Meltzer was clearly lower on this than could have been expected coming in), though no one is talking about this show they were talking about WK7. Only a couple of people who I expected to hate the show have seen it and commented on it, and both were lukewarm at best which is what I figured. I know probably eight or nine people who I would describe as either first timers, casuals, or middle of the road on NJPW who have already watched and commented this year. These are the people whose response I will be most interested in in the coming days, and I expect to hear more from them. Right now the consensus I'm hearing from them is that it was a show that had a Wrestlemania like atmosphere, but the crowd seemed flat, and that kept them from getting as deeply invested in the matches as they might have normally. Kind of an odd statement given how flat Mania crowds have been at times in recent years, but it's there.

 

I haven't watched the show yet myself. I had originally planned to order it live this year, and already had the day off for it, but the lineup was so horribly unappealing to me on paper I couldn't justify dropping thirty bucks on it. I am looking forward to seeing it though, as NJPW really has succeeded at making it feel like a must see show.

I really liked the first third, thought the middle third was not very good, and I loved the final third.

 

I think the three matches that were really good were all a notch below MOTY level, and New Japan has raised the bar to the point that you expect a MOTY contender on most major shows, especially this one.

 

For me there was a lot to like here, from the big show feel with the entrances, to some cool title changes, and three really good matches. To to bottom I think it's onpar with WK7. but now that the bar has been raised I think the show would be more hyped in a bubble. Everybody seemed to enjoy it, and twitter was a blast (even Rich stayed up for once), so for me it was a lot of fun and the hours really flew by.

[tim]

I really liked the show. It's not really my style, and I don't know how much I'd have enjoyed if it I weren't watching it live in a stream/chat with a bunch of enthusiastic New Japan marks, and I don't know how much I'd like any of the matches in isolation, but as an overall show watching it live it was a great time. Which has pretty much been the case with all the New Japan shows I've watched live, much more than the sum of their parts. I mean, if I watched Goto/Shibata as a stand alone match honestly I'd probably call it bad but in the context of the show, with the build up videos etc, the stiffness was some good novelty that fit in nicely with the card. Even watching it from that perspective though fuck do they need to drop the US-indie offense.

 

The Gracie match was very disappointing. I'm not sure I expected it to be good but I hoped it would. NJPW doesn't need matches like THIS but I'd love it if they had a few "legit" guys around to regularly put on matches like Sakuraba/Nakamura and add, I dunno, a little 'edge' to the product. Maybe I'm trying too hard to convince myself but I hold out a little bit of hope that something good can come from this given that this match was so uneventful and the feud is continuing -- makes me think maybe the Gracies are trying to put some work in to get decent at pro wrestling. They were obviously very limited here.

 

At that point I was very tired but I enjoyed all the three big title matches. I don't know that Devitt/Ibushi was a good match but it had some good spots. Okada/Naito did a pretty great NJ style home stretch and I really liked the finish. The beginning was weird: the work seemed alright generally but it was weirdly spaced out and a lot of downtime. The main event actually seemed really good to me but I was almost struggling to keep my eyes open at that point.

 

The videos and entrances were great, NJPW killed WWE in terms of Wrestlemania presentation. In general NJPW does "sports entertainment" better than WWE while I think WWE has the much better in-ring product, which is just a funny state of affairs. I liked the show a lot but when I'm watching a full show I tend to appreciate it more as an overall viewing experience rather than a collection of matches; not sure how much anyone not into the NJ style would like any of the matches in isolation.

[W2BTD]

I really liked the show. It's not really my style, and I don't know how much I'd have enjoyed if it I weren't watching it live in a stream/chat with a bunch of enthusiastic New Japan marks, and I don't know how much I'd like any of the matches in isolation, but as an overall show watching it live it was a great time. Which has pretty much been the case with all the New Japan shows I've watched live, much more than the sum of their parts. I mean, if I watched Goto/Shibata as a stand alone match honestly I'd probably call it bad but in the context of the show, with the build up videos etc, the stiffness was some good novelty that fit in nicely with the card. Even watching it from that perspective though fuck do they need to drop the US-indie offense.

 

The Gracie match was very disappointing. I'm not sure I expected it to be good but I hoped it would. NJPW doesn't need matches like THIS but I'd love it if they had a few "legit" guys around to regularly put on matches like Sakuraba/Nakamura and add, I dunno, a little 'edge' to the product. Maybe I'm trying too hard to convince myself but I hold out a little bit of hope that something good can come from this given that this match was so uneventful and the feud is continuing -- makes me think maybe the Gracies are trying to put some work in to get decent at pro wrestling. They were obviously very limited here.

 

At that point I was very tired but I enjoyed all the three big title matches. I don't know that Devitt/Ibushi was a good match but it had some good spots. Okada/Naito did a pretty great NJ style home stretch and I really liked the finish. The beginning was weird: the work seemed alright generally but it was weirdly spaced out and a lot of downtime. The main event actually seemed really good to me but I was almost struggling to keep my eyes open at that point.

 

The videos and entrances were great, NJPW killed WWE in terms of Wrestlemania presentation. In general NJPW does "sports entertainment" better than WWE while I think WWE has the much better in-ring product, which is just a funny state of affairs. I liked the show a lot but when I'm watching a full show I tend to appreciate it more as an overall viewing experience rather than a collection of matches; not sure how much anyone not into the NJ style would like any of the matches in isolation.

I totally understand where you are coming from. As a whole it was just a super fun show to watch. The presentation was outstanding.

 

Also, it appears the 35,000 is legit. That's a major success if so.

[Timbo Slice]

The biggest thing about this show to me is that they're gonna run Seibu for the G-1 Final. Basically looking to triple the house on the biggest non-1/4 show of the year. That's insane.

 

A true 35k is great. The aim next year should be for 50k. You have to think Okada/Nak or Okada/Tana without them facing each other all year is in the cards.

[Dylan Waco]

I honestly think I would build toward Okada v. Nakamura and Tanahashi v. Shibata as the double main for next years show. Mind you the only one of those guys I'm a fan of is Nakamura, but I think those are matches that could play huge at the Dome.

 

I suspect they will do Okada v. Tanahashi again at the Dome though, and next year might be the best chance to milk it for all it's worth. I also wouldn't be shocked to see Nakamura win the title from Okada and defend it against Tanahashi at the Dome next year.

 

I think running Seibu is well worth the risk. It gives them the opportunity to sell another "super show" and the G1 Finals is the only time they can sell out Sumo as it currently stands so they can play it as a necessity as well. I do think they need to fill it more than half way for it to be considered a real success though. I'm thinking about 18k or so would be the "worth it" mark, with anything over 20k being a strong success. I also think if it works it could have the added benefit of making the Sumo shows feel bigger on their own, which means they might finally sell the place out for something other than the G1.

[W2BTD]

Is it time to call business very healthy at this point? It wasn't that long ago that there were legitimate questions that have now been answered, such as whether Okada was a draw (he drew on top while Tanahashi was de-emphasized, he drew vs Ibushi in DDT), and whether this WK Dome growth was a two year fad. And I have nothing to back this up obviously, but I would be willing to bet they broke whatever iPPV record they had last night based on massive twitter activity and pretty big buzz everywhere, including hits for Meltzer's coverage rivaling all but the biggest WWE & UFC's.

 

Also, based on the fan vote being over 2-1, its pretty clear who drew the house. Well, at least who didn't, Naito.

 

And Nakamura/Okada absolutely *must* happen this year. I'm with Dylan, I think i'd do the year long build for Dome.

[Dylan Waco]

The problem with the fan voting being a huge indicator is both the Naito issue and the fact that Okada drew the exact same or better against guys not named Tanahashi as he did against guys named Tanahashi. I can't get passed that because historically, with the strong drawing aces, they are nearly always going to draw at least a little better than other guys, and in every case I can think of they are definitely going to draw much better against the other top guy. I know because of my thoughts on Tanahashi there are people who will dismiss that as bias against him, but it has more to do with the historical research I've done over the last several years, and the strong patterns you normally see that just weren't there last year for the Tanahashi v. Okada matches regardless of what you think about their quality. As I mentioned here before, there is actually more of a record of the "failed" ace Akiyama popping shows, than there is Tanahashi, though none of this should be taken as an attempt to diminish the very strong showing in the Dome this year, and the fact that Nakamura v. Tanahashi was the marquee match.

 

I think NJPW's business has been "very healthy" in the sense that it's been profitable, self sustaining and showing growth for a couple of years, but is it "very healthy' in the sense that it is indicative of a new boom? I think it's still to early to tell, in part because the business model is shifting (we know it is with the WWE in many ways, and we see it obviously with iPPV and New Japan), and in part because it's not like they are doing out of this world business outside of the Dome. Yes they are doing their sellouts of mid-level buildings, and have done strong numbers and relatively strong numbers other places (Yokohama for example), but even Dave Meltzer - about as big an NJPW fan as there is at this point - recently noted that the strength of their business can be easily overstated if you forget they are sometimes running the smaller buildings in a market, presumably because they don't think they can pack the bigger ones.

 

I DO think this is the year where we are going to find out just how far this Tanahashi/Okada/IPPV/Nakamura/whoever the fuck you want to throw into wave is going to go. The talk of them looking to run a Dome tour sounded insane at the time, and still sounds insane to me, but it is clear that NJPW can run a big production and make it feel like a big production, something even their critics readily concede. Here are the questions I would like to see answered going forward for them:

 

1. Can they finally sell out Sumo Hall for a non-G1 show? For those who think I'm harping on that, keep in mind that this is in many ways their home arena. During a hot period, you would think they could sell it out with some regularity, the fact that they haven't done so for anything other than the G1 final in quite some time is one of the reasons I have trouble trying to quantify just how hot they actually are.

 

2. Can they put 20,000 people (or more) in the building for the G1 Final? 20,000 is the magic number for me at Seibu. The building would be 2/3rds full, which is a solid showing in a building that size. It would be the first time NJPW had draw more than two houses at 20k or more since the bottom fell out. It would also probably mean that NJPW would have two of the three biggest drawing pro wrestling shows of the year, a feat that would have seemed laughable just three years ago. On top of that it would be an undeniable success, would be something to build on for future G1's and would be something to build on for future stadium shows outside of the existing 1/4 model.

 

3. Can they continue to grow iPPV business? The problem with this is that to a degree this is speculation. We know the business is good, we know it is at worst stable, and likely growing, and we know it has helped them become a profitable company again. What we don't know is how many people are buying these shows, and whether or not these shows are driving increases in live attendance. Beyond that, it's possible that these shows will NEVER help to increase live attendance, but still be key parts of the business going forward as they are still paying fans, with their eyes on the product. I would say if we see an increase in the number of shows from last year - and last year seemed to have a ton - it would be another notch in NJPW's belt.

 

4. What about new contenders? Even NJPW super fans seem to acknowledge that something was off with Naito build, and the end result is a weird situation at the top of the card (more on that below). Complicating things, the obvious IWGP title contenders are Nakamura who is coming off of a loss of the secondary title (albeit in the main even of the biggest show of the year) and Shibata, also coming off of a loss on the big show. There have been whispers about Devitt coming up the cards, but he is also coming off of a big loss at the Dome. In order for this run to sustain and grow they need more depth at the top of the cards, and it is going to take smart booking to get there. Right now the second tier of guys (Suzuki, Makabe, Goto) all seem like weak options for title matches, particularly title matches expected to carry iPPV's.

 

5. What will the roles of Tanahashi and Okada be going forward? In many ways I think this is the key. Because of the way the Naito push came off (and perhaps other factors), and the results of the Dome show, Okada is in a much worse place than he was a few months ago. If the goal was to make the I-C title seem more important by putting it on Tanahashi (something I think was already accomplished under Nakamura) I can see the value in what they are doing, but having Tanahashi and Nakamura main event the show over Okada seems even more unwise after the results of the show than it did to me going in. As it stands all of the logical challengers for Okada are coming off of losses, and the next tier down seems like a stretch (see above). At this point if they run Okada v. a bunch of lame duck challengers, it's possibly Tanahashi could be working against bigger stars and/or more believable opponents. My point is that there is going to be a real challenge here for Gedo and Jado in terms of how they are going to balance Okada and Tanahashi in terms of presentation, challengers and card placement over the next few months. Even if you believe Tanahashi is a bigger, stronger star than Okada (something I'm not at all convinced by), you don't want that star to burn at the expense of Okada.

 

I would personally like to see Voices of Wrestling take on these sort of questions in a written piece or a podcast. I think there is a lot of interesting stuff going on with NJPW and it worth discussing.

[WingedEagle]

Really good points here as NJPW heads into what's unquestionably a pivotal year. They set a pretty high bar with the product last year, there's momentum behind Okada as champion, Tanahashi as a Cena-like ace who doesn't need the title to be on top and a definite sense of what the big shows are that they can build towards.

 

But Tanahashi-Okada needs to be held off for a while, if not until the next WK, Okada-Nakamura is a marquee match that hasn't been done and can headline a big show -- and at least today, January 5, that's it. I've got no doubt they can put together quality main events that are good in the ring, and probably no worse than average as draws. But they'll have to elevate some people to create fresh matches on top, and I don't think its as simple as moving the belt off of Okada at this point. Should be very interesting to see what they build around and towards after their successes over the last 2 years, as you might've preferred to have those matches available at this point when pushing into larger shows and seeing business take off, but you can't time these things.

[FedEx227]

It's that conundrum a lot of promotions find themselves in, they build and build and build and build that by the time they have these major shows, all the huge matches they've built towards have either already been done or aren't hot anymore.

 

I have no doubt that they'll be able to build to something big at the G1 Finals but it will be an interesting year for sure. They are a victim of expectations in 2014. 2013 and the latter half of 2012 were almost unsustainably great. Each event seemingly better than the next, MOTY contenders up and down the card and two shows in 2013 that were all-time greats including a nearly untouchable G1 Climax tournament.

 

Can they sustain that in 2014? I think we're already seeing, no. Doesn't mean they are bad by any means or on the downside but it's going to be impossible bell-to-bell to live up to what they did in 2013. Now the goal is improve the business side.

[W2BTD]

In hindsight, using Namamura to build the IC title into such a strong secondary title may turn out to be one of the biggest stories of 2013/14.

 

Nakamura establishes the title, they hand it off to the biggest star in the company, and next month on the strength of Tanahashi & Okada each headlining one show and 8 total title matches, they are running TWO New Beginning PPV shows.

 

Some very ambitious chances being taken this year. And a chance to see Tanahashi vs Okada head to head as draws. Tanahashi got the better opponent (Nakamura) and card, Okada got the stronger town (Osaka) and semi final (Naito).

 

If nothing else, the long term booking was pretty clever in hindsight, and they are attempting to strike while the iron is hot. It's pretty exciting seeing something interesting happening business wise somewhere aside from WWE for once.

[Dylan Waco]

I have to say the announced Feb shows look very interesting to me. They are the kind of shows I would actually consider purchasing depending on the cost. I have no interest in Goto as a challenger, but I will grant he's probably the best option in the short term