evilclown Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1920585...e-wrestling-war Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 It's an interesting take and a definite narrative, one that you can draw clean lines to and could sell to Hollywood in two sentences. I'm not sure if it hits everything correctly. Look at who WWE brought with them for the launch: Austin, DX, etc. Flair was advertised. Hogan was hinted at. I think they want to draw back in the casuals from the Atttidue era but are taking the current casuals as a given since they're already there and what they're offering them is a better deal, with the PPVs, then they could possibly get otherwise. The real winners might not be the current kids who love Cena, sure, but it could well be instead the people who tuned in and shouted SUCK IT in 98-99 and wore Austin 3:16 shirts, the misfit creatures of the last boom. Also, we don't exist in the paradigm you laid out, which is understandable, but a little strange since you're one of us and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 As someone who is normally a fan of your writing, I'm not a fan of the sweeping generalizations you make about wrestling fans in this article, one where casual wrestling fans are naive dimwits and where hardcore wrestling fans are angry nerds. Does every type of wrestling fan fall into one category or the other? I'm a pretty devoted fan of wrestling, but I've never touched Magic: The Gathering, and my hardcore fandom is not rooted in ECW or Paul Heyman. I feel zero connection to either of the groups you described, and I can't think of many wrestling fans with whom I interact that fall into either of these categories either. I do agree with the general point that there has been a dissonance in what fans have wanted from WWE for a long time, and WWE has given mixed responses to those mixed messages. WWE has made a choice and they're banking on hardcore fans, or at the very least training casual fans to act like hardcore fans in some respects. But by including clips of Daniel Bryan and CM Punk in this article, the assumption is that they have no appeal to casual fans when that's clearly not the case. I feel the need to respond to a lot of this: On one side were the casual fans, the kids and, gasp, the women. What about males who are casual fans? They exist too. In fact, a lot of them boo John Cena and cheer Daniel Bryan and CM Punk. It's not like most of those people post here or at DVDVR (or I would wager any online message board), and when you look at all the times Cena has been booed out of a building, there's no way the WON, the Torch and PWInsider combined have that many subscribers. They are casual fans. The in thing to do is boo Cena and cheer Bryan and Punk ... so they boo Cena and cheer Bryan and Punk. They chant YES because the masses chant YES. People who follow the in crowd are casual fans. Across the trenches are the internet fans. Overwhelmingly male, overwhelmingly young, likely more often than not wearing an ironic t-shirt, these are the endo and ectomorphs, the same crowd that might otherwise be playing Magic: The Gathering at their local comic book shop. They know the history of the sport, know all the moves, and if they are really good, know what they are called in Japanese, too. Do they understand history? Would they have been able to poke holes in the press release last month about the finish to Thesz/Rogers without Dave pointing it out? I'm not sure everyone could do that here. I'm not sure I could. Look at how many people still don't understand the details of Montreal, despite the info being out there and readily accessible. The people who understand wrestling history by and large aren't in arenas booing Cena. They are posting on Wrestling Classics. They are Paul Heyman guys. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but surely you aren't implying that the only people who boo Cena and cheer Punk and Bryan are former ECW fans? If ECW would have had that many fans, they would still be in business. Less than a year ago, a stadium full of fans booed John Cena like crazy when he defeated The Rock. Did ECW ever fill a stadium with fans from around the world? Hardcore fans are having their way; the ascendance of Daniel Bryan and the Shield are proof of that, but mostly because casual fans are disappearing in droves. My problems with this statement are that it's presumed that hardcore fans have been happy with the direction of WWE since Summerslam, that Daniel Bryan and The Shield aren't over with anyone except Internet fans, and that they may in fact be driving people away. I think we both know that isn't true. Wrestling television will no longer build to a mega-event, one designed to attract casual fans. If this is the case, should I expect WWE to fire John Cena and build around Daniel Bryan as their new Hogan after Mania? Will Brodus Clay and the Divas not be on the roster anymore since they have no appeal to hardcore fans? I think the truth is more complex than this article suggests. I also think most wrestling fans are people with all sorts of nuances and unique characteristics and motivations for watching, and I've never really met anyone who acts quite like the hardcore fans you mention in this article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 What kind of a casual fan cries when Lex Luger loses a bout? Are you implying that casual fans think it's real? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooley Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I think the WWE network is more about media trends and the Netflix revolution than anything that pits hardcores vs casuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted January 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 So my attempt here was to write something the Masked Man at Grantland might write. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I think if anyone ever wondered whether or not we were biased for or against people we like or generally honest and earnest in our opinions and responses, they now have an answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted January 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I feel zero connection to either of the groups you described, and I can't think of many wrestling fans with whom I interact that fall into either of these categories either. This board and everyone on it is so distantly removed from the normal wrestling fan we might as well be from another planet. Do they understand history? Would they have been able to poke holes in the press release last month about the finish to Thesz/Rogers without Dave pointing it out? I'm not sure everyone could do that here. I'm not sure I could. Look at how many people still don't understand the details of Montreal, despite the info being out there and readily accessible. The people who understand wrestling history by and large aren't in arenas booing Cena. They are posting on Wrestling Classics. I don't mean actual history. I mean the kind of pidgin history you hear passed around outside of wrestling shows by the fans who "seem to know what they are talking about. They've seen the A+E special maybe, or just the WWE historical releases. That brand of history. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but surely you aren't implying that the only people who boo Cena and cheer Punk and Bryan are former ECW fans? If ECW would have had that many fans, they would still be in business. Less than a year ago, a stadium full of fans booed John Cena like crazy when he defeated The Rock. Did ECW ever fill a stadium with fans from around the world? Of course not. Being a Paul Heyman guy has nothing to do with ECW. It's a CM Punk thing. If this is the case, should I expect WWE to fire John Cena and build around Daniel Bryan as their new Hogan after Mania? Will Brodus Clay and the Divas not be on the roster anymore since they have no appeal to hardcore fans? Cena is a made man. If the company does tilt even further towards appeasing their dwindling fans, however, I think you might see a Cena turn. He's the perfect heel for the IWC crowd. I think the truth is more complex than this article suggests. I also think most wrestling fans are people with all sorts of nuances and unique characteristics and motivations for watching, and I've never really met anyone who acts quite like the hardcore fans you mention in this article. You've never met a know-it-all geek in your years as a wrestling fan? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Sure I've met know-it-all geeks. I am one! But I haven't met the former ECW fan who hates John Cena and plays Magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted January 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Sure I've met know-it-all geeks. I am one! But I haven't met the former ECW fan who hates John Cena and plays Magic. A literalist to the last! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 So my attempt here was to write something the Masked Man at Grantland might write. Thoughts? Obviously I'm not your target audience, but for whatever it's worth, and I say this in as friendly and constructive a way as I possibly can: I like the stuff you normally write much better. I think the Masked Man style traps the writer in a predefined narrative and then the writer supports that narrative, even if there are other inconvenient truths that are part of the picture. Your interviews are top notch, and I'd definitely like more of those, although I realize doing more columns like this doesn't preclude you from doing more interviews. I also really enjoy the other writing I've seen from you. I even defended you against criticism on the "disposable commodities" line you rolled out about how Paul Heyman treated wrestlers a few years back and still think you were 100% on the right on that. I just like your style more than his. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 In some funny timing it was just announced today that FOX is going to make a movie based on Magic the Gathering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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