Interesting Observer.com article

[Loss]

*bump*

 

This topic seems to be one that's more and more discussed. I want to link to Rudo's blog entry at TSM on this subject:

 

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/blog/rrr/i...d=2&m=10&y=2005

 

I'd also like to copy/paste my response:

 

ROH didn't create it, but they're as much to blame as anyone for further perpetrating the Great Divide between good matches and good storylines. There's this really bizarre outlook I see all the time that the two are mutually exclusive or diametrically opposed, or that a promotion focusing on wrestling can't possibly have good storylines to drive that wrestling. Content is valued over presentation when honestly, good pro wrestling places a much higher premium on presentation than content. ROH has no clue how to contextualize their own booking, even when they do something right. I blame Paul Heyman for starting the trend of providing a "good match" on every ECW undercard that wasn't intended to connect with an audience. I blame Vince Russo for burning out the wrestling audience of the modern era on so many bad angles and bad storylines that a small group of fans somehow came to the conclusion that wrestling wouldn't be so bad if angles didn't exist at all. I blame Eric Bischoff for destroying an empire and giving us a wrestling scene where Heartless Gymnastics Disguised As Wrestling is considered a high standard by a group of egomaniacal fans who don't know as much as they think they do. And I blame Vince McMahon for arrogantly attempting to tweak the moral structure of his most loyal supporters when he should be focused on selling his next pay-per-view. It's a combination of egos, injuries, back scratching, life destruction, greed and Corporate America that put the current wrestling scene in the lifeless hellhole where it currently resides, and until people ask tough questions and truly grasp how we got here in the first place, getting out of that hellhole will remain impossible.

[goodhelmet]

I never thought I would say this but I agree with Bob Barron. ROH has evolved since 2002. 2003 had the Homicide-Corino feud and Raven-Punk feud that were better than any WWE feud from that year. Since then, a greater value has been given to the belts, featured heels like Jimmy Rave or the Rottweilers, plenty of outside guests and have featured more TALENT than any other U.S. fed going currently. The fans? Sometimes it sucks to hear the heckling or chants but they don't bother me anyway. Then again, I don't watch wrestling the same way you do so I can see where we are never going to agree on that subject.

 

It is easy for me to watch the edited version of WWE and see the best matches from the year in comps but I find sitting through an entire stale, unoriginal WWE show painful. I would rather watch ROH stumble than see WWE maintain its status quo.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

I completely agree with your (Losses) assessment. Now, Loss, how do you see this in terms of chicken and the egg - was it the fans who demanded this approach to wrestling, or was it the promoters who were the ones to impose it on the fans?

 

I imagine it was both - the fans wanted good wrestling and the promoter, doing what promoters tend to do, blew what they wanted out of proportion and misinterpreted it. Like with "Attitude" - the fans did want a more sophisticated approach to wrestling, the fans did want adult storylines - the fans did not, however, want Mae Young fucking Mark Henry. The fans do want good wrestling, however, they don't want it at the expense of heart. They don't want manufactured wrestling. Well, at least *I* don't. So then you get guys like RF and Gabe who see a demand for "real wrestling" and they try to give the audience "real wrestling". The problem is, they only know what "real wrestling" looks like, as do most of the "workers" wrestling for them. It's akin to building a robot in the image of a human - you give them all the anatomically correct stuff like arms and legs, you give them the ability to smile, and voila, it's just like man. Their catchphrase used to be "we don't imitate, we innovate"... well buckos, you imitate.

 

I don't see the point in comparing ROH to WWE, since WWE is an awful promotion and not exactly hard to beat.

[goodhelmet]

I still think you are harping on the bad and completely ignoring the positive. Hell, the worst match I have seen in the last 3 years was Homicide-Trent Acid from Wrestlerave 03. Just an embarassing piece of trash. However, this company has also given me great matches like Joe-Punk 2 that I think are non-robotic, non-paint by numbers, non-business exposing, non-masturbatory bullshit. Watch the James Gibson matches from this year. The company practically re-invented this guy's career. You can easily follow the stories of guys that might interest you and you can also choose to ignore the ones that don't... just like any other promotion.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

I tried watching all the recommended stuff from ROH. I've liked some of it, admittedly, and I know I am generalizing... But "winter is cold" is a generalization too. The vast majority of ROH that I have seen hasn't gotten me off in the slightest, and I think to myself "why?". I am "supposed to" like it. But yet I end up feeling rather indifferent after watching it with a strong sense of annoyance at the commentary, the fans, and stupid lil spots in the matches. Like skinny guys doing Misawa elbows... if you can stand that, you are a better man than I.

[Loss]

I think it's the fault of the promoters, to answer your question. It's been nearly 10 years since anyone in power has looked at what the fans seem to want on anything beyond the most superficial level possible. As a result, they've created a monster they're unable to tame. Longer storylines often fail to get over like they would have even 8 years ago because too many fans are busy critiquing everything and have no patience to see how things play out.

 

You'd think that sounds awfully hypocritical coming from me or you, but the difference between us and some others is that we're able to detach ourselves and attach ourselves at the proper times. "They blew their load on HHH/Orton when it could have carried them all the way to Wrestlemania" is a valid criticism coming from people who want to see wrestling thrive and succeed. "X-Pac sucks and I don't want him on my television screen" is the type of view that should be ignored or scoffed at, because it doesn't even attempt to take the bigger picture into account and it doesn't understand wrestling anyway. The former view is a valid and somewhat thoughtful criticism of the booking while the latter view is complaining because someone who's not as good as Eddy Guerrero or Chris Benoit is daring to take up three minutes of your time. Fuck that. When promoters start listening to fans like that, the fans end up the puppeteers, which they should never be.

 

To make another comparison, I get frustrated watching Lost sometimes because I want immediate answers. I want to know who stole Shannon's inhalers (an old question they never answered). I want to know what happened to Claire while she was gone and why she can't remember. I want to know why the others are interested in children, why they're evil and why they're out to kill. If they answered all those questions when I wanted them answered, the show wouldn't be nearly as good and they too would be creating a monster. They have enough foresight and experience to avoid that, because they know how to tell stories. WWE knows how to tell stories as well, but they're too busy looking at themselves in the mirror to take the time to do so most of the time.

 

Sadly, when WWE thinks of the Internet fan, they think of the "X-Pac sucks" guy, not the "I wish the booking was more patient" one, because quite frankly, there are far more of them than there are of us. Criticism is dished out by people who don't attempt to view things outside their own insular world; insane decisions are defended by fanboys who desperately want things to be great again and just pretend they are instead of giving up. It's those types of fans that have more than done their part in bringing wrestling down the past few years, but ultimately, they can't shoulder all of the blame. They have other things to do, like watch ROH.

 

I do like ROH. I saw Joe/Punk I (haven't watched II yet) and it impressed the hell out of me. I think Bryan Danielson is fucking great and I hope his best years remain ahead of him. I also realize they'll never be as great as they have the potential to be, and the talent, the fans and the promoters, all of whom created the problem, will suffer because of it.

[goodhelmet]

Dude, you have watched 2002 ROH which Tim has told you countless times to take sparingly... but given the context of what was going on at the time, I would have watched 2002 ROH over anything else going on at the time. And yes... you are generalizing.

 

EDIT: I was replying to Rudo's post thinking it was Loss and did not see Loss's actual post.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

I've seen a bunch of "recent" stuff, including whatever show had that Joe/Punk blow-off on it and whatever show had Lyger on it. That was from 2004, right? I couldn't get into it. I can't take it seriously. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way...

[goodhelmet]

To clarify once again, I thought Loss made the "winter is cold" post but...

 

OK, well I really don't know what you expect from wrestling then if you didn't enjoy the Liger stuff or the Joe-Punk feud.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

...that probably explains why I am watching less and less wrestling and more and more MMA.

 

But of course, a bunch of pasty white guys throwing streamers in the ring for no reason other than "that's how they do it in Japan" and a lanky white guy with shitty tattoos trying to be taken seriously as a wrestler are the absolute pinnacle of professional wrestling... there is nothing left for me...