Squared Circle Gazette Radio #4 - The Best Big Man In Wrestling History

[JaymeFuture]

Well, stemming from some great conversation started up on this forum, we take your comments (and feedback from elsewhere as well) and break down our thoughts on the best big man in the history of the business. A roundtable discussion, this podcast and the entire topic in general was a lot of fun. I hope you all enjoy - let me know what you think!

 

Download Link:

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/ftwmvy/SCGRadio4-TheBestBigManInHistory.mp3

 

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/ftwmvy/SCGRadio4-TheBestBigManInHistory.mp3

 

In addition, we are now on iTunes (at last), so you can subscribe to the podcast on the link in my sig.

 

 

[JerryvonKramer]

You guys gave Yokozuna a very rough ride here, seemed overly harsh to me to call him a "horrible worker" and extremely high on Lesnar.

[SomethingSavage]

Well, I've downloaded every episode of the series thus far. Haven't had a chance to listen to a single one just yet, but yeah. ANY mention of Yoko as a poor worker is going to turn me away instantly. I also saw in another thread that women's wrestling was disregarded on one of these episodes, and I just hope that it's a "point and counterpoint" kind of panel - rather than EVERYONE jumping on one point and pushing it collectively. Because that group-think mindset could tune me out from listening altogether if it's done that way with every topic.

 

In defense of Yoko, I've pretty much given my thoughts on him as a performer on the board before, but he is VASTLY underrated if people really have that perception of him at all. The guy was tremendously talented.

 

Yoko was incredibly smart in how he worked, too. His offense was nothing if not believable. There was no air on those Banzai Drops. His leg drop looked like certain death. His Samoan Drop looked like it'd mash bones into ash & dust. Just ferociously fearful offense from every angle.

 

And he had phenomenal timing. That goes hand-in-hand with NOT ONLY the sharpness of his offense - BUT ALSO when & how he would sell for smaller guys. The leaning tip-over tease he'd do? At times, the back of his hair would be touching the ground, and yet he'd still be standing there on ONE LEG. With that much girth, that's a freaking feat to behold and can't be understated.

 

I could go on and on gushing over Yoko, because he's a guy that doesn't get as much love as he really should in the big scheme of things. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't care. His work as Kokina is worth checking out as well. There's not an abundance of unexplored stuff out there, but what's out there IS genuinely good.

[JaymeFuture]

The women's debate on the third podcast was a total point-counterpoint (and a passionate one on both sides), a stubborn point of view and a fair but critical one against a staunch supporter.

 

The Yoko opinion is mine and mine alone (two of the others disagreed with me to varying degrees) - I thought he was efficient in his role and could play the big man very well, a lot like Earthquake in that sense. Don't think I called him a "horrible worker", in fact near the end of the discussion I made the Quake comparison and said everything Yoko did looked good, that he was good for his size, and wasn't an schlub like a Khali/Gonzalez/Typhoon type. But I did say that I thought he was the worst WWF champion in-ring as I couldn't recall any good matches throughout the entire course of his run, and since body of work was a lot of the debate, I don't know how he can be graded highly.

 

Also, since his peak period was 93, and Vader was at large at the same time, I thought at the time and still do now that the greatness of Vader made Yoko look second-rate.

 

I didn't get to make the point on the show, but the turning point surely was when his weight was getting out of control in 93 - I like his stuff as Kokina, and he looked awesome when he first came in to the WWF, the Virgil destruction at Survivor Series is glorious. But the bigger he got the less dynamic he became, and I just couldn't stand those damn three minute nerve holds.

[BigBadMick]

Nobody mention Goldberg at all?

 

I'm not nominating him, just struck me as an unusual omission....

[SomethingSavage]

Well, yeah. Yoko was no Vader. Only one guy was, and not many were even comparable to be frankly honest. I guess I never really considered the two as straight-ahead comparisons, because the characters felt so uniquely different. I mean, I get the REASON behind the comparisons. Both were the top monster heels of their companies at the same time, and both were given that parallel path with the monster push.

 

But I can easily enjoy Yoko for what he was - faults and all. It would typically be easy to write him off as lethargic or lazy, but you can watch the footage and clearly see that's not the case early on. He didn't get sloppy fat and SOOOO slow until his girth got REALLY out of control towards late '95 and '96. In '93 and '94? No way. The guy was going hard.

 

Yoko was busting his big ass to make his smaller opponents shine. He wasn't immobile and making them work AROUND him. He'd let them orbit a bit, work their offense, but he was almost ALWAYS actively selling. He was teetering, he was teasing the giant "timber" moment, and he was generally thinking of ways to work the crowd into his contests. He enhanced the interactive atmosphere by drawing the audience in and making them WANT it - whether "it" be him just taking a bump or whatever. Didn't matter.

 

I might like Yoko more than most, but I really think some of his stuff is underrated in the big scheme of things. I really dig the Survivor Series '94 match with Taker (and Chuck freaking Norris), as well as his stuff with Bret and even (yes) Hogan's defense against him from KOTR.

 

Your reference to the '93 time frame, placing Yoko atop Titan and Vader atop the Turner tower, got me to thinking though. If the WWF had wanted to directly combat WCW's booking strategy with the SAME style and template, they could just as easily have gone with Bigelow during this period instead of Yoko. Say what you will about his report attitude issues or whatever, but Bam Bam was versatile and agile enough to mirror the same things Vader was doing in WCW at the time. He could've played the part of monster heel as WWF Champion and worked a wide range of challengers.

 

Because, while I'd never argue that Yoko was a better in-ring worker than Vader, I will say there are times when Vader probably could have benefited from being the recipient of WWF's booking while at his peak in WCW. Basically, Vader was putting together a better portfolio of in-ring matches. No doubt about it. But Yoko was receiving a better push and building the right "monster" reputation as a result of it.

Don't misunderstand me there. I think Vader was tremendous in his run on top as WCW Champion. But there are times when he could have & likely should have been more protected as their monster asset.

[JaymeFuture]

Nobody mention Goldberg at all?

 

I'm not nominating him, just struck me as an unusual omission....

 

Kieran on the podcast did mention Goldberg at the end in passing but I had to cut it for time. As a blueprint in that mould, he also mentioned the Road Warriors which was pretty interesting. I'm surprised neither was mentioned on any forums, even if just as a theortical.

 

Well, yeah. Yoko was no Vader. Only one guy was, and not many were even comparable to be frankly honest. I guess I never really considered the two as straight-ahead comparisons, because the characters felt so uniquely different. I mean, I get the REASON behind the comparisons. Both were the top monster heels of their companies at the same time, and both were given that parallel path with the monster push.

 

But I can easily enjoy Yoko for what he was - faults and all. It would typically be easy to write him off as lethargic or lazy, but you can watch the footage and clearly see that's not the case early on. He didn't get sloppy fat and SOOOO slow until his girth got REALLY out of control towards late '95 and '96. In '93 and '94? No way. The guy was going hard.

 

Yoko was busting his big ass to make his smaller opponents shine. He wasn't immobile and making them work AROUND him. He'd let them orbit a bit, work their offense, but he was almost ALWAYS actively selling. He was teetering, he was teasing the giant "timber" moment, and he was generally thinking of ways to work the crowd into his contests. He enhanced the interactive atmosphere by drawing the audience in and making them WANT it - whether "it" be him just taking a bump or whatever. Didn't matter.

 

I might like Yoko more than most, but I really think some of his stuff is underrated in the big scheme of things. I really dig the Survivor Series '94 match with Taker (and Chuck freaking Norris), as well as his stuff with Bret and even (yes) Hogan's defense against him from KOTR.

 

Your reference to the '93 time frame, placing Yoko atop Titan and Vader atop the Turner tower, got me to thinking though. If the WWF had wanted to directly combat WCW's booking strategy with the SAME style and template, they could just as easily have gone with Bigelow during this period instead of Yoko. Say what you will about his report attitude issues or whatever, but Bam Bam was versatile and agile enough to mirror the same things Vader was doing in WCW at the time. He could've played the part of monster heel as WWF Champion and worked a wide range of challengers.

 

Because, while I'd never argue that Yoko was a better in-ring worker than Vader, I will say there are times when Vader probably could have benefited from being the recipient of WWF's booking while at his peak in WCW. Basically, Vader was putting together a better portfolio of in-ring matches. No doubt about it. But Yoko was receiving a better push and building the right "monster" reputation as a result of it.

Don't misunderstand me there. I think Vader was tremendous in his run on top as WCW Champion. But there are times when he could have & likely should have been more protected as their monster asset.

 

Agree completely with the Bigelow point - I don't think they actively sought out to follow the Vader template, but in a Yoko/Bigelow comparison I can certainly understand going with Yoko for the role as top heel over Bam Bam at the time, in the sense he had a greater headliner upside between the two (and as we mentioned on the show, I think the fact Bigelow was more agile and worked quicker worked against him in the WWF, where that alowed him to be the perfect upper level utility player). I can't fathom them with the roles reversed.

 

The point about Vader with the WWF promotional machine is a strong one too, I think that fantasy is one of the many reasons 96 was such a disappointment. WWF did have a couple of booking hiccups with Yoko (the horrible Mania IX slip up most notably), but in general terms the promotion created an amazing aura around him, using him to injure or "retire" longtime WWF fixtures like Duggan and Hogan and largely be dominant from a booking standpoint.

 

And I think that's part of why I find Vader so impressive, in 93, as a kid like I said, with the promotional machine, the rep of being the top heel in the big leagues and killing Hogan, Yoko didn't come close to striking fear in me as much as Vader did. Just a terrifying man.

 

As a theoretical, I wonder how Yoko could have fared if he'd had Vader's opponents? He had Taker and Luger for most of his run, whereas Vader got better performers to work with in Sting, Cactus, Dustin, etc.

[BigBadMick]

Did Samoa Joe get mentioned? I would nominate him for work in RoH and TNA's x division early on.

[JaymeFuture]

Since the topic was brought up on different forums and on the show, you're the first to mention Joe, which I think is a real shame, but speaks more to what TNA have done to him, because at one point I think his career trajectory was such that he could have been considered for his work has he gotten a great sustained run. But alas...