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JerryvonKramer

DVDVR 80s Project
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Everything posted by JerryvonKramer

  1. Made this thread in honour of Ian McShane's recent antics spoiling Game of Thrones willy nilly. I haven't read the spoiler, but I loved the heel promo he cut on internet nerds: Tremendous heeling.
  2. JerryvonKramer

    Wrestling in unusual contexts

    I watched the Roman Polanski film Repulsion last night from 1965 and there's a little scene in which they turn the tv on and there's a wrestling match on. British commentator. It's a tag match. I think "Rebel Ray Hunter" is one of the guys mentioned. This is one of the oddest instances of pro wrestling popping up in an unexpected place I can think of. Any other takers?
  3. JerryvonKramer

    Comparing Numbers of Shows Per Era

    This may interest some people here. This is total live shows run per company using six representative years from NWA era, Hogan era, and Monday Night Wars.
  4. JerryvonKramer

    Comparing Numbers of Shows Per Era

    Incidentally, I took the decision not to include outlaws in the 70s or Indies in the 90s because the crowds were mostly negligible. As an example, ROH's record crowd to date in 2008 was at the Hammerstein Ballroom in NYC -- that holds 2,500 and they couldn't even sell it out. In the 70s, Ivan Koloff vs. Mil Mascaras drew 14,000 for the IWA so I figured if indies moved the needle at all for 80s or 90s numbers, they'd just get blown away by outlaws from the 70s anyway.
  5. JerryvonKramer

    Comparing Numbers of Shows Per Era

    So I just looked at some of those 1971 cards from SF where Patterson was working on top to look at who was on the undercard. Tony Parisi is one example. Here are his dates for June 1971. 1 Show @ Stockton 1971/06/01 @ Memorial Civic Auditorium in Stockton, California (United States of America) Mighty Brutus defeated Tony Parisi 2 Show @ Modesto 1971/06/04 @ Uptown Arena in Modesto, California (United States of America) Paul DeMarco defeated Tony Parisi [2 out of 3 Falls Match] 3 Show @ San Francisco 1971/06/05 @ Cow Palace in Daly City, California (United States of America) Mighty Brutus defeated Tony Parisi 4 NWF @ Cleveland 1971/06/17 @ Cleveland Arena in Cleveland, Ohio (United States of America) Tony Parisi defeated Dr. X 5 BBP @ Cobourg 1971/06/17 @ Cobourg Memorial Rink in Cobourg, Ontario (Canada) Eric the Red vs. Tony Parisi - winner unknown 6 Show @ Pittsburgh 1971/06/18 @ Civic Arena in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (United States of America) George Steele defeated Tony Parisi by referee stoppage 7 Show @ Amsterdam 1971/06/23 @ Amsterdam, New York (United States of America) Tony Parisi defeated Kurt Von Hess 8 Show @ Johnstown 1971/06/26 @ Johnstown, Pennsylvania (United States of America) Dominic DeNucci and Tony Parisi defeated Baron Mikel Scicluna and George Steele 9 WWWF Pittsburgh TV 1971/06/26 @ Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (United States of America) Tony Parisi defeated Jack Vansky Looking before and after, Parisi seems to have left SF in mid-June and gone back to New York. Let's pretend he was a $50 a night guy. That was $450 for June which is $2,991 in today's money. He worked 104 dates that year so let's say $5,200 which adjusted for inflation is $34,563. That's quite rough but still a living just about. But who knows, those pay days in New York might have been better.
  6. JerryvonKramer

    Comparing Numbers of Shows Per Era

    Looking at Pat Patteron, as one example, a draw for Shire in San Francisco, in 1971 he worked 168 matches. If you pretend he made $150 a night -- might have been more or less in 71 I don't know -- that would be $25,200. Adjust that for inflation and in today's money it would be $167,499. I'm not entirely sure what a top guy would have made in 1971 but considering by the 80s prelim guys on WWF cards were making $150 a night, that's got to be a low-ball guess.
  7. JerryvonKramer

    Comparing Numbers of Shows Per Era

    May be of interest but using the data above I calculated that there was a 91% decrease in live shows from the 70s to the late 90s. The combined total 1970 to 1975 is 36,812 For 1985 to 1990 it is 11,824 For 1996 to 2001 just 3,490 Was this really driven by fan behaviour or just by Vince pushing PPV as the big moneymaker?
  8. JerryvonKramer

    Comparing Numbers of Shows Per Era

    Does anyone know why no one in the NWA would run shows against Verne?
  9. JerryvonKramer

    Comparing Numbers of Shows Per Era

    Amazing info, thanks!
  10. JerryvonKramer

    Comparing Numbers of Shows Per Era

    How exactly did the Toronto booking work? Would Tunney “lease” his venues to Sheik/ Crockett / Vince? Also I’d heard about Sheik burning out Detroit but not Toronto. What’s the story there?
  11. JerryvonKramer

    Comparing Numbers of Shows Per Era

    San Francisco was a proper territory run by Roy Shires, their key venue was the Cow Palace but they ran many smaller shows. The official name for San Francisco was “Pacific Coast” or “Big Time Wrestling”. Pat Patterson was one of its biggest stars. LA was a proper territory run by Mike Labell, their key venue was the Grand Olympic, but they ran shows all over. It was called “NWA Hollywood.” Big stars were Fred Blassie and John Tolos. Detroit was a proper territory run by The Sheik, confusingly this was also called Big Time Wrestling and even more confusingly The Sheik had a working relationship co-promotional deal with Roy Shires’s Big Time Wrestling. There’s an old podcast series somewhere featuring The Sheik’s son going through all the cards. Their key venue was Cobo Arena. Toronto was called Maple Leaf Wrestling and it was run by the Tunneys. This seems to have been more like Houston where guest stars would come in. Bruno worked up there. It’s also why those Maple Leaf Gardens shows plugged so easily into WWF programming down the line. St Louis was a “special” office, because it was run by Sam Muchnick who was usually the NWA President. St Louis was a prestige venue where the NWA Champion would often defend the title on sort of “super cards” at the Kiel. It’s official name was the St Louis Wrestling Club and Wrestling at the Chase was a prestige TV show. The Missouri Heavyweight Champion was seen as a stepping stone to be NWA champ and anyone who held that title was seen as a “made man”. I recall listening to a very long and interesting podcast series by Larry Matysik on this, don’t know if it’s still available but it’s an education if you can find it.
  12. JerryvonKramer

    Comparing Numbers of Shows Per Era

    Look at Mid-Atlantic in the 70s
  13. JerryvonKramer

    Ric Flair

    Evil Flair in that Savage feud is underrated. Arguably the most sinister he ever got character wise.
  14. JerryvonKramer

    Kenta Kobashi

    I’m pretty sure that the four bosses of Street Fighter 2 (Balrog, Vega, Sagat, and Bison) were referred to as “the four heavenly kings” and now it all makes sense.
  15. JerryvonKramer

    Jack Brisco

    I seem to remember Brisco being more heelish and brawl-y around 1981 sort of time. There's a Piper match.
  16. JerryvonKramer

    Ted DiBiase

    If anyone ever does, the only matches I'd seek out are against the Steiners and against the Beverley Brothers in 1993 (it's on an early Raw and a super rare heel vs. heel match). Aside from those, Money Inc were saddled with the Nasty Boys and the Natural Disasters for much of 1992 and even Bushwackers -- the tag division of that period is absolutely putrid and for whatever reason most of the Road Warriors matches happened on untaped house shows, including title switches. Rotunda is also extra-specially chinlock-y as IRS for some reason. People may even be better off seeking out pre-Money Inc DiBiase and IRS teamups from around the time of This Tuesday in Texas in 1991. I seem to remember a half-decent Bret Hart and Virgil match from an old Sean Mooney-fronted coliseum home video, and possibly a random High Energy (Owen Hart and Koko Ware) match or two from Superstars. Maybe there's is one or two Tito and Virgil matches also. If I have a criticism of the entire Money Inc run it is that they were booked not only as chickenshit heels but as superduper chickenshit heels in the Honkytonk Man vain. There's a match from a SNME against Savage and Warrior where it's not even believable Money Inc would be in with a chance of beating the babyface team. This is why using them as Hogan's comeback feud in 93 is somewhat strange given that it had already been established that they were the most weasel of all weasel teams. Honestly, I think they were booked weaker than any tag champions in WWF history. They'd even have to cheat or take a DQ against lower card teams like Bushwackers or High Energy most of the time.
  17. JerryvonKramer

    Yoshiaki Yatsu

    Has anyone ever done an in-depth Yatsu vs. Kurt Angle comparison? I'd be interested to see that.
  18. JerryvonKramer

    2016 vs. 2006 at a glance

    I thought this might be a handy comparison chart for the top 25. Key: Blue: Top 25 in 2006 and dropped out of it in 2016. Gold: New entry into top 25 in 2016. Yellow: Top 25 in both 2006 and 2016 but went UP in 2016. Orange: Top 25 in both 2006 and 2016 but went DOWN in 2016. One interesting question is if any of the blue names have a shot at re-entering in 2026. Or do any of the orange fallers have a shot at rising back up? I feel like Jumbo may have a shot at re-entering top 10 with the amount of AJPW footage that seems to be cropping back up. Another interesting question is who is the most vulnerable at dropping out of the top 25 this time. Of those names in yellow, it's hard to see any of them dropping out completely possibly with the exception of Vader. Apart from Bryan, I'd say *every* gold name is at risk, chiefly because I see reflected in those names particular pushes from prominent PWOers in 2016. Will pushed Lawler. Matt D pushed Bock. Ricky Jackson pushed Savage, etc. Quite easy to see Arn dropping back down to 30s if there are fewer 80s NWA fans, etc. Also, just a fun bit of trivia: Taue finished at 26 in both 2006 and 2016.
  19. JerryvonKramer

    GWE Non-Thread Worthy Comments

    I'm about to see a shed load of him in the AJPW Real World tag leagues so will mention if I think he's worth it. Seems perennially to be in that mid-card tag team role and then later in the comedy spot. Not sure how much IWA-era footage of him there is.
  20. If you're anything like me, the AJPW single title scene prior to the Triple Crown is kind of a blur and I've been trying to get it clear in my head. Here's a little table I made to help see who held which title when at a glance. Now some notes: The International Title prior to 1981 wasn't actually in the company but was largely defended in South Korea by Ohki. This belt had tremendous prestige because it was the title for which Rikidōzan had defeated Lou Thesz in 1958. So the story goes, the NWA International Title was used by Thesz as an excuse to go skiing in Europe. He'd drop the NWA title before leaving, then defend the International title to pay for his vacation and then pick up the World title in a return match when he got back to the USA. When the NWA ordered Ohki to give the title back to AJPW, Dory won it in a tournament in which he faced Terry in the final (I believe this is their long 1981 match). From there, it gradually became the top title and by the time Jumbo won it in 1983 this was the number 1 belt. The PWF title was created after Baba won a series of 10 matches. It was the number 1 title for the 1970 and as you can see remained Baba's belt for most of the decade all the way until 1985. I am a little unclear about the status and prestige of the belt from 1985 to 1989 when it was chiefly held by Hansen with spells by Choshu and Tenryu. The UN title was very clearly the number 2 title, similar to the WWF IC belt or the US title in WCW. Jumbo just vacated the title in 1984 to focus on defending the International belt and DiBiase won it in a tournament defeating Tenryu in the final. The status of this title from 1985 onwards, during the period in which it was chiefly held by Tenryu is unclear to me. It's obviously the number 3 belt by this point, but was it a number 3 belt more like the TV title in JCP / WCW (i.e. a competitive and somewhat respected belt) or more like the European belt when it was established in WWF (i.e. a "nothing" belt)? Looking at the way cards were booked after 1985, Jumbo has relatively few title defences every year. In 1987, for example, he has almost exclusively tag matches for the whole year defending the belt only four times the whole year. Incidentally those title defences were: 4/2/87: Tommy Rich 4/24/87: Yatsu 7/22/87: Hansen 9/12/87: Bockwinkel This was massively reduced from the number of defences Dory had in 1981, where he seemed to treat it more like the NWA World title and took it to the USA for stints also. By 1985 we are down to just three defences in the year. PWF title meanwhile was defended 7 times in 1987. Choshu had one defence against Curt Hennig before leaving for New Japan, then Hansen won a tournament defeating Wajima in the final. Defences against: Yatsu, Tenryu, Wajima. Incidentally, Baba did not defend this belt much in certain years. For example in 1980 and 1984 he defended it only 3 times. There does not seem to be more than 7 title defences in any given year. The UN title, incidentally, was defended only twice by Tenryu that year vs. Hansen and Yatsu. This is massively down from the 8-10 times a year Jumbo would defend this belt against all comers in the early 1980s. By 1985, Tenryu is already down to just the 2-3 defences a year. So each of the belts that formed the triple crown were not defended that regularly. AJPW focused heavily on tag wrestling and tournaments, so the title matches are few and far between. Still interesting to think about the relative prestige of the titles at any particular time.
  21. JerryvonKramer

    GWE Non-Thread Worthy Comments

    Has anyone nominated Horst Hoffman?
  22. JerryvonKramer

    Ric Flair

    Some interesting points raised. I do agree that it’s an evolution of the character. I would not agree that Flair settles into just being heel Flair after 1985/6 but he does transition into ultimate form. Before then, the “four faces” (as I call them) are each distinct characters whereas after that they are just different aspects of the same composite character that can be dialled up and down. You can see this most in 1989 and especially the Steamboat matches where we see shades of all the prior Rics all rolled into one over the course of the feud. 1991-3 WWF Flair is obviously more heelish, 1993 WCW Flair is more of a throwback to early 80s especially the Vader retirement angle. Then by the time we get to the 1995 Savage feud it’s heel Flair dialled up to 11 (in fact, I’m not sure he was ever more evil or out and out than in that run), then by the time of the NWO era we see the germs of crazy old man Ric which I never really got into before because I see it as a distinct post-peak character. As for him not realising the NWA champ style was no longer necessary by 86: seems to me Flair always worked appropriate to the booking, by which I mean if he was booked to go 45 minutes or an hour he could go, but if it was a ten-minute sprint brawl (e.g. Garvin) then this is what he’d work. For all the talk of Flair Formula, I also think he had about five or six different formulas for longer matches that he could work depending on the opponent. There’s an obvious one for bigger opponents (Sting, Luger, Road Warriors), a more old-school NWA style (see Jumbo matches), competitive technical opponent (Steamboat) ... you can can likely spot others yourself.
  23. JerryvonKramer

    Ric Flair

    Because Flair has so many top tier high profile matches, I wonder to what extent people overlook his week in - week out stuff, standard TV matches, jobber matches and so on? It would be an interesting exercise for someone to look at more mundane Flair: Will’s old horsemen set had many of these matches. There are a few matches (DiBiase 85, Morton spring to mind) where Ric works from on top rather than underneath. I have an old post somewhere called “The Four Faces of Flair” — a small but significant part of his case in my view is how he adapts to those situations where he has advantage. His case does not just rest on quantity but on the qualitative nuances as he adapts to different situations: the way he works on top as a heel differs from as babyface; his *character* transitions especially as a heel within matches are very interesting (chicken taking a beating vs evil desperate bastard on top in one version; but there are other versions). The qualitative part of the Flair case is that he is multilayered in a way I don’t believe, say, Hansen is because Hansen is always just Hansen. Hansen is awesome but he’s also one note: Flair I believe has many different notes in his character work: one of the reasons the Steamboat matches are so highly rated is because we get almost every type of Ric over the course of those matches. I believe that only Terry Funk compares on this sort of metric of having “many different sides”. It would be interesting to tease out the many faces of Funk too. Alright I’ve said enough about this man to last a lifetime.
  24. JerryvonKramer

    Stan Hansen

    I have a vague plan to watch the Real-world Tag Leagues in order (and as completely as possible) in the coming weeks and months, somewhat unrelated to GWE, but at least you may have someone else watching this stuff with you. I made a start with the 1977 tourney last night. My chief memory of Hansen and DiBiase is that they are a very solid team with good but unspectacular matches, but it might look different watching it all in context.
  25. JerryvonKramer

    Stan Hansen

    Where are people on these tag matches which I had at either ***** or ****3/4? Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (8/31/83) Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (12/16/88) Jumbo Tsuruta & Kenta Kobashi vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (7/15/89) Giant Baba & Rusher Kimura vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (11/29/89) Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (12/6/89) If you throw in the Inoki one from 5/9/1980 we're on for a list of 25-30 great to all-time level matches.
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