Guest ohtani's jacket Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 Here's some advice for anyone scouring matchlists. Any trios match involving four or more of these wrestlers is bound to be good: El Dandy MS-1 Sat?nico Emilio Charles, Jr. Atlantis Lizmark Blue Panther Pirata Morgan Los Brazos El Texano Javier Cruz Hombre Bala Fuerza Guerrera ?ngel Azteca Super Astro Pierroth Jr. Cicl?n Ram?rez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Thanks. I know you've talked about this era of lucha more than anyone else has, really, so this may be what I end up checking out first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Here's some advice for anyone scouring matchlists. Any trios match involving four or more of these wrestlers is bound to be good: El Dandy MS-1 Sat?nico Emilio Charles, Jr. Atlantis Lizmark Blue Panther Pirata Morgan Los Brazos El Texano Javier Cruz Hombre Bala Fuerza Guerrera ?ngel Azteca Super Astro Pierroth Jr. Cicl?n Ram?rez OK brother, you can't leave us hanging like this. You HAVE to elaborate so I have something to go on. Maybe a detailed synopsis on each guy? Lord knows there is little quality lucha info out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Famous Mortimer Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Pirata Morgan is a class act, and when I do my oft-promised pirate wrestlers comp, he'll feature heavily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 OMG, the potential titles for a pirate wrestler comp are endless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Call me ignorant but what other pirates are out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ISJ981 Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Jean Pierre LaFitte~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Local Jobber R Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 REY BUCANERO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ohtani's jacket Posted November 26, 2005 Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 Thanks. I know you've talked about this era of lucha more than anyone else has, really, so this may be what I end up checking out first. I'd always wanted to see El Dandy from this era, ever since Dean pimped his match with Emilio Charles, Jr. in an old DVDVR, but it was really Tim's posts at the old DVDVR messageboard that had me laying down the money. After a few matches, I realised it was the lucha experience I'd always wanted to have. I owe a lot of my satisfaction to Tim and my jealousy of his latest weekend viewing... So thanks Tim. I'm still not sure I know the difference between a bad trios match and a good trios match. Most trios matches follow the same basic pattern. The first fall involves a lot of showmanship: the rudos work the crowd and set the tone; the matwork and running between the ropes involves a lot of one-upmanship, usually as a pay-off to some sort of rudo posturing. The opening fall almost always culminates with a series of flash pins. The second fall is revenge for the first and commonly involves the rudos taking the upper hand. The third fall begins as a continuation of the second, before leading to a final flurry, where the action is spread all over the floor & the wrestlers go diving everywhere. In the middle of all this a new feud may begin. What's interesting to note is the finish is rarely decisive and usually not that climatic -- my assumption is that finishes in lucha are tidy resolutions, either rudos always prosper or if the technicos win, it's just and right. The high point in any trios match is invariably the topes. It may feel flat at first, but once you get a feel for the characteristics of each fall, you'll accept in the first caida, for example, the way the workers come rushing in to end the fall. Each fall has a different rhythm and the most important thing is the pairings. You need great rudos in order to have a good trios match, since they bump and sell to make a technico look good. The beauty of great timing between a rudo and a technico is that the wrestling appears to go wherever the technico takes it, which makes it seem like a freer style. When Atlantis hits the ring, his actions and movements are so quick that it doesn't feel like a rudo walking into an arm drag, but something inspired; think of those sweetly timed spots in the Casas/Santo match and how Casas celebrates afterwards, that type of exhilaration is what makes lucha so magnificent. When you have a charismatic rudo that knows a thousand ways to work a crowd & can bump, stand up and bump again, all in time with a technico's flurry, then you can really feel the rhythm of the match carrying the crowd. A great rudo will time his revenge perfectly, usually incorporating the heel and face refs and leading the crowd by his actions. Heel antics are fantastic in lucha and the best rudos tread a fine line between the comic and the inflammatory -- watch a master rudo switch between the two, without ever hurting the integrity of a match. He may do something outrageous to begin with, but he'll immediately follow it up with a spot that's bound to anger the publico. Basically it's the timing of these spots that makes for a great trios match -- knowing when to do them (and in what order). You know instinctively when a rudo has made the crowd bite; when they're primed to see him bail everywhere and when a technico has picked the right time to satisfy the desire. I saw a beautiful first caida the other day where the rudos "stooged" to magnificent effect and Atlantis & Super Astro were so on the money in dishing out their comeuppance. It was perfect lucha. The spots all flowed together into one big, glorious caida, where every sequence was topped off in style. You really have to see Super Astro's tope to realise true lucha panache, or the spot where the rudos are mesmerised by his footwork & begin immitating him, until they realise how foolish they appear. They take a swipe at him, but he always escapes to his corner, signaling his one-upmanship to the crowd. I've never seen anything like it and that's one of lucha's biggest charms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 26, 2005 Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 I think that's the explanation I've been looking for. Thank you. I'm going to attempt rewatching some of the CMLL that left me cold initially. Considering that my favorite aspects of wrestling are typically the strong face/heel dynamic, crowd heat, intensity and occasional blood, and considering that most people who get really into the style are also people who are fans of Southern-style wrestling, I imagine I'll love it once I grow comfortable with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ohtani's jacket Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Considering that my favorite aspects of wrestling are typically the strong face/heel dynamic, crowd heat, intensity and occasional blood, and considering that most people who get really into the style are also people who are fans of Southern-style wrestling, I imagine I'll love it once I grow comfortable with it. In my experience, none of those aspects of Southern style are as strong in Lucha. Lucha rarely does "face in peril" -- largely because lucha doesn't tell stories through selling and there's rarely, if ever, a continuing theme throughout all three falls. Occasionally a worker will buck the trend: in the CMLL I watched recently there was an injury storyline between El Texano & Atlantis, and even more ruckus between El Dandy and Emilio Charles, Jr., which set up a tag match and hair vs. hair match, respectively, but on the whole, lucha isn't very story driven. It's usually driven by rudos doing their rudo act and technicos behaving like technicos. Some of the rudos are so charismatic that they're revered as much as technicos. It's often impossible to tell whether El Dandy is a technico or a rudo since he's fab and everyone knows it. I don't find lucha intense. I usually have a whale of a time because it's so outrageous. It's like watching Tully Blanchard stooge all the time, but without the dick element. Tully was a real prick; the best rudos in lucha can be pricks, but it's a different sort of quality, because they're showmen first and foremost. I suppose some of the hair vs. hair stuff can be intense, and I'm sure there's a lot of hatefilled lucha out there, (it should be noted that they take forever to blade in lucha), but, personally, I get more satisfaction out of Super Porky comedy spots. In some respects it's more light hearted than other wrestling styles. It sometimes looks like a Jack Kirby strip brought to life, but apart from being fabulously entertaining there's a deeply rooted culture and & it can even be moving -- Villano III's unmasking is a great example; women were crying and old men knew the score. The basic crux of lucha seems to be that rudos always prosper and it's up to technicos to avert their lying, cheating, short cutting ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ohtani's jacket Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Okay, here's a rundown on everybody: El Dandy Probably the second best worker in the world at this point. Could do everything that can be done in the ring. Fantastic bumper and seller, with the added gift of being incredibly charismatic. Worth watching at all times, since his acting never stops, from intros to the ring apron. A modern looking wrestler, he took stylistic elements from all over the world and would incorporate them throughout a match, without ever hurting the integrity of lucha. A complete performer; made carrying a worker look effortless. MS-1 The master rudo. Unbelievable really. Every single thing he does is great. Has me in the palm of his hand every time. Works at a slower, stalking pace. GREAT punching and brawling skills. The king of all things known. Sat?nico Second only to MS-1 as a rudo, which made for a brilliant trios team in Los Infernales (MS-1, Satanico & Pirata Morgan). Shares a lot of the same qualities as MS-1; both of them can wrestle any style. Comparable in many ways to grumpy Jumbo. Emilio Charles, Jr. The find of the era. Unrecognisable from the wrestler of later years. A superb worker; could match El Dandy hold for hold, which isn't easily done. A more outrageous and over the top heel than Satanico or MS-1, he would complain incessantly about being screwed, not dissimilar from a football player pleading to the ref over a foul. A touch camp at times, but almost always brought a big time performance to his matches. Atlantis The best of the technicos. Unquestionably gifted. Pulls off the most intricate sequences in any trios match. Adds untold quality to any match he appears in. Has the ability to be repetitive yet dazzling. Lizmark El Geniecillo Azul (The Little Blue Genius). A veteran, still in his remarkable prime. Probably better than Atlantis, but doesn't feature as often. Everything you'd expect from a technico -- matwork, flying, flashy counters, but done with a control and command over the form that has people thrusting the superlatives on him like genius. Blue Panther The great mat worker, extremely underrated in every other aspect of lucha. Had the greatest lucha match I've seen with Atlantis in August, 1991. Started to peak towards the end of the period, but very good nonetheless. Always mentioned after El Hijo del Santo, despite being vastly superior. Pirata Morgan As fine a rudo as I've seen. Had the full repertoire. Not always the worker that his Los Infernales teammates were; has a habit of struggling when stuck with crap opposition, but produces some of the most grin inducing bumps in lucha. Spends the rest of the time bumping HUGE. Takes the back body drop like a motherfucker. Nobody goes higher over the ropes. Always teases the elbow drop from the top rope. A great elbow or knee drop is the greatest thing in wrestling. Pirata is quality when he's in the mood. Los Brazos The beloved trios of Brazo de Oro, Brazo de Plata (Super Porky) & El Brazo. Impeccable comic act; transcending whatever prejudice you might have towards comedy matches. Hugely underrated wrestlers. Able to mix it up in any style. Masters of the trios wrestling. Never take anything for granted. Their matches move up and down the scale from hugely popular comedy spots to out and out lucha (dives, brawling, the whole shebang). Brazo de Oro, IIRC, is also a quality singles wrestler. El Texano El Dandy's cousin and frequent tag partner as part of Los Cowboys. More of a power wrestler than most luchadores, he's a compact worker who's solid at everything he does. Good on the mat, quick between the ropes, uses some nasty looking submissions and has a mean powerbomb. Javier Cruz GREAT foil for any rudo. Has a real little chip on his shoulder. Always wrestles like he's pissed off at the misgivings. Never backs down from a fight. Hombre Bala Pirata Morgan's brother. Part of the Los Bucaneros trios w/ the other brother, El Verdugo. Archetypal rudo worker. Extremely solid -- bumps well; sells well; hits the ropes at pace; always gives an honest performance. Probably a borderline inclusion, but he never hurts a match. Manages to impress. Puts the technicos over well. Fuerza Guerrera The great rudo himself. Ridiculously better than his son. Not always at his best in this era, because of the pairings, but as CMLL moves into the early 90s he becomes a God at putting over workers like Octagon, who have about two or three tricks. Their match from '91 is a rudo tour de force. ?ngel Azteca Popular technico at the time. Got an almighty push. Not as gifted as a Lizmark or Atlantis, but a decent worker. Needs a strong rudo to bring out the best in him, but this isn't easily done. Only El Dandy masks him well. Is a major focal point for El Dandy in this era, since he's often the middleweight champion. Super Astro Short, stocky and a ton of fun. Fantastic spots. Can be quite a good worker when it all clicks. Pierroth Jr. Just fell in love with Pierroth Jr. recently. Beautiful, deliberate cheating, done with flair and a little bit of camp, also quite a violent brawler. Need to see more of him, especially the Los Infernales/Los Intocables feud that Jose always pimps. Cicl?n Ram?rez A bit player in my viewing so far, but I've been impressed with his form. Classic technico wrestling. Does everything cleanly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SweetMama Scaat Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 *never knew El Dandy was actually talented and respected* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 WCW can have that effect on you.. .esp. when his crowning moment was being introduced by Chris Jericho in the Cruiser Battle Royal as the winner of the Lou Ferrigno look-alike contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SweetMama Scaat Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 You ever notice how the announcers would mark out for el dandy? "El Dandy does not deserve this~!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ohtani's jacket Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 *never knew El Dandy was actually talented and respected* I don't think Bret had any clue when he said, "Who are you to doubt El Dandy?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Just so you know, this has been a helpful resource and is currently being used. Am I ready for El Dandy? I guess we'll find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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