What do you want out of the wrestling folder?

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

I stopped posting up old and new Observers, not just because there was a lack of appreciation, though that did play a part. I mainly stopped because all people would do when I put it up was bitch and complain like little babies. They'd bitch about typing errors, they'd bitch about "people having too much time on their hands", they'd bitch about the news posted, etc. When I typed up the WO story about Dick Ebersol, you had people, who I'd guess were totally ignorant about, amongst other things, the impact that Ebersol had on the WWF, bitching about that, saying it wasn't news. And when I just mentioned what the lead story actually was that week, which was Zero One closing, people bitched and moaned for no reason. All I did was mention the top story in the WO that week, and people bitched and moaned like little babies for no reason at all.

 

As I said in Site Feedback, pretty much everyone in the wrestling folders at TSM are a bunch of ingrates.

[Loss]

Quote function was driving me crazy because I couldn't get it to go right, so here's the code.

 

Original text

What goodhelmet said

My response

 

 

We've had a mild slow down in traffic and I just wanted to get a feel for what it is you guys would like to see more of in the wrestling folder.

 

It still has to be the busiest folder on the board.

 

It is. I guess I'm just trying to get some new blood in here to avoid things getting stale in the future. Call me the anti-Bischoff.

 

do you want to go back to doing the Thoughts On The Following Wrestlers posts every day?

 

They were fun but there was rarely any real information shared that hasn't been said elsewhere. Occasionally, a nice little discussion would branch out but you had to wade through a bunch of nothing posts (Mine included) to get to some quality discussion.

 

What if we did them once a week with slightly lesser-known guys and when we're talking about someone huge (Hogan, Flair, Bret, etc), we dedicate an entire thread to them. I also won't start off with a bio, but rather I'll just start the thread and chime in based on the direction the discussion goes. Would that be better?

 

Do you want to talk about matches more?

 

Of course, but as you have found out, there is no point in talking matches when it is a one person conversation.

 

True, and even more true when it's a conversation you and I could have in private anyway. I sent you a personal suggestion through PM that I think may be a good way to counter this.

 

Do you prefer that we talk about current wrestling or past wrestling?

 

Both!

 

Agreed. Personally, I think the past wrestling will always generate more discussion, and that will continue to be the case until current WWE gets fun again.

 

Do you want more talk about Puroresu? About lucha? About the indies?

 

Yes, yes and yes... BUT... this is only worthwhile if other people are there to talk about the matches.

 

Agreed.

 

Should we focus mostly on WWE?

 

This is going to happen regardless.

 

Likely so. That said, there's a lot of ground to cover with that company, since they've been around forever. I think I have a few ideas on how to approach things in a little fresher fashion.

 

Now, onto the question posed in the topic. If we don't have a large population of posters familiar with puro, we can always create posst that can educate people or help people track down matches. I tried this with the Kawada Recommendations and it died a quick death. Why should I invest that time if noone appreciates it?

 

That's happened to me with quite a few threads I've started. Maybe we can start doing something called "Pick 5" where we take a wrestler, any wrestler, and just recommend five of their best matches. Then, we can talk about those matches in more depth, and in a case like Kawada, or Flair, or Hart, or someone with a large body of great matches, we can do the same guy twice if need be. What do you think?

 

Personally, I am willing to post Observer news as time permits when I start recieving it. I ordered last Tuesday (or Monday?) and haven't recieved my first issue.

 

That would be awesome! You've already done this, and it's appreciated.

 

But as HTQ pointed out, why take the time to type all of that if no one appreciates it or responds to it? That is why he stopped typing them up at TSM.

 

There was a little more to it than that, I believe, but yeah, that was the biggest part of it. I don't think you'll encounter that problem here, at least not from me, and probably not from MARTYEWR or sek either.

 

I think we also have to get away from generalizations.. and get to specifics. I fall in this trap, Loss falls into this trap, we all fall into it. We have an opinion on a topic and we start dropping cliches and generalizations while lacking specifics to really drive in our point.

 

Not sure I follow. I think I may, but I'm not sure what specifically we're talking about.

 

Not always, but I think as posters, we should really be aware of this. This is one of the reasons why I haven't contributed to your Hidden Gems thread, Loss. It would require me to watch the matches and try and make a worthwhile contribution so I don't become what I despise.

 

I can see your point, but some things people just remember. Like, I know you wouldn't have to watch 6/9/95 every time someone brought it up just to remember what happened in the match.

 

Another thing I would liek to see from different posters is more discussion in the What Are You Watching thread and? longer pieces. testing is over for me and I am coasting the rest of the way. Ishould be much more active in this folder the next month.

 

Looking forward to it. I'm going to try to sit down and watch some wrestling Sunday. I'm in a Scrabble tournament Saturday all day, so I'm tied up then, but Sunday, I'll have the house to myself and I have no plans.

 

What ever you guys do, don't just give some PBP and slap a star rating to it. That is the laziest and worst kind of writing you can do when it comes to generating meaningful discussion.

 

Absolutely. I've always wanted to see both Marty and Sek review some stuff, actually, because I think they have the potential to be really good at it. We shall see.

[Marty]

I'm going to address some of these things specifically tomorrow, but I just wanted to say that if any of you know of any good posters that you think would fit in here, especially in this folder, PLEASE invite them along. That means, Dazed, if there's anyone at Something Awful who you think would fit in, link 'em and pimp the site. We obviously don't want it to be TSM-lite here, but if there are good wrestling posters that aren't here that you think would fit in here, invite them. We have a great group of posters, but I think we need a few more voices in the crowd.

 

PS -- Anyone with extensive knowledge of something obscure (territories, MMA, lucha, indies, etc) would be a huge coup.

I'm going to try my best to look around at other boards I'm at. To be honest, this group is the absolute best I've had discussions with in relation to wrestling. Each poster I've seen is really good at what they do. I think Loss is great at constructing storylines in a way that makes them work. Sass is great at pointing out the general highs and lows of wrestling, particularly from a business sense. Teke is king of shoot interview coverage. Goodhelmet, from what I've read, understands wrestling an awful lot and can point what makes a match great. Sek, while he does challenge conventional wisdom an awful lot, does it better than anyone who's tried to do so, bringing up a great amount of supporting arguments to suit his claims. There's others I'm probably forgetting, but this is my general feeling of the group. Hats off to you guys.

 

I do have a question for everyone here, regarding DVD reviews. We already know what we all want in relation to match reviews. But regarding a general DVD review, how much do you want? If I'm reviewing, say, the Ric Flair, Mick Foley, Shawn Michaels or Rob Van Dam DVDs, do you care if I throw in the comments of those four? Also, if the main programs are a biography of sorts (eg. Trish Stratus, The Rock, Steve Austin) should I bother covering the main program? Or would people just want match coverage? Do you care just about the matches, or do you want a review covering the DVD in general? And if you want the biography, extras, etc. covered, how do you want them reviewed? Feedback to these questions, as well as any suggestions you have that would make your reading enjoyable is very encouraged. Thanks!

 

As I write this, I'm going to add my DVD collection to my signature as a handy reference. Feel free to let me know which discs you'd like reviewed, if you wish.

[Loss]

I'm not a big fan of the "list" threads, especially when it pertains to years. I can't remember '97 from '98 or '99. Just like I can't remember '90 from '91 & '92. Especially now that there's Raw and Smackdown every week and about fifty PPV's a year. I can't even remember the names of all the PPVs anymore.

While this is true, I think we've all seen something at some point that we've remembered and loved, even if it hasn't gotten a lot of attention. That's the point of these threads, to bring those things back to the surface and talk about them. Every pimping thread always ends up going back to the same matches, so I was trying to provide something different.

 

I like threads that spawn differing opinions and discussion. When it's just come in, name a match and dip that discussion doesn't really happen unless someone forces it. It's like all the discussion seems forced. Like someone has to take the "devil's advocate" role to even get the ball rolling. We usually just converse about something that we all share a similar opinion on. It doesn't bring a lot of discussion, just a lot of agreeing.

Discussion can happen without disagreement. And I'm personally against posters disagreeing just to get a reaction. I like to call that trolling.

 

I liked when we were doing the talk about certain wrestlers. I didn't like that we had, like, five at a time. I like to learn shit about dudes whenever possible. If we, for example, could combine what we've been doing into like one big daily thread I think it'd bring more discussion and we might even learn some shit. Like, have a thread about a certain wrestler. We can list what we like and dislike about them. Talk about the matches that they've had that we think are the best and possibly list the matches of theirs that we've seen which are the shits. Actually, a wrestler a day is probably too much. That forces the discussion to come to a halt at the end of the day. Maybe we could even list matches by certain people that we've seen that are obscure so others can seek them out? Something like that. Like their early days and whatnot.

How about a wrestler of the week? Is that better, you think? I think you make some great points here.

 

Also, I think we should focus LESS on Puro because of the people that we have here. I mean, I know that personally my experience to Japanese wrestling is very low...and I've actually went out of my way to read about it and buy tapes and shit. So, I'd like to think that my knowledge is above average.

I feel the same way in some areas of Puroresu myself, honestly.

 

I'm a bigger fan of us talking about our opinions instead of commenting on what people at the Wrestling Observer typed out and what not. I mean, I like to hear about the little nuggets too. I'm glad I know about the Lita/Edge/Hardy shit and all that. I don't think that Meltzer's opinion is anymore valid that that of Loss or Goodhelmet or Sek though. We can have the informative news threads, like releases and whatnot, but I don't like it when it all becomes speculation and shit.

That's a valid point, and one I'll try to remember when starting topics.

 

We never talk about the indies either. We don't talk about Ring of Honor, TNA or OVW...ever really. Are there people that we should be on the look-out for that haven't had MotYC's in RoH?

There's no excuse for the lack of ROH talk, considering all the DVDs of matches that were sent to me that I haven't started watching yet. I will do my best to alleviate that very soon.

 

I'm actually about to start sending my tape collection to Goodhelmet so he can transfer them to DVD for me, and what I'm going to do along the way is watch the footage before I send it so I know what's worth keeping and what isn't. Watching all that will inspire discussion in and of itself.

 

I don't mind reading tape reviews and shit but I think that's more main page shit. All you can talk about in the forums as it pertains to that is stuff like "good article" or "i agree." "Hey guys, I posted my new article on-line today!" "Great read man."

Sometimes, that's the case, and sometimes, it's not. When I posted my 2001 WWF reviews at TSM and started a thread in their folder, it got a lot of discussion about specific points I made about matches. Admittedly, most of the time, it ends up just as you said. I still think it's worth starting a topic, though.

 

You know, "natey2k4" or whatever the fuck his name is at TSM has a good idea. He just starts threads that ask a question and discussion takes off from there. Shit like should WWE have video packages for all PPV matches? Stuff like that will get differing opinions. I think he's a shitty poster but he has the right idea. If the original post were to be more descriptive and whatnot, like we're capable of here, we'd probably stumble onto some good threads.

I think you have a point. Feel free to start any topics like this.

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

How about some sort of ongoing competition or tournament ? I'm not sure what it could be about, but I think something competitive in nature might spark a little life around here.

[Loss]

There's an idea. Since the WWF/WWE seems to be the one thing everyone here has seen, we could do a Greatest WWE Wrestler Of All Time tournament. Is that something in which everyone would want to participate?

[Guest Hunter's Torn Quad]

What format would this tournament take ?

[Loss]

I'm always a mark for double elimination. We could pool everyone here to get names and maybe stop at 64 names. How does that sound?

[Marty]

I like this tournament idea, actually. Double elimination works for me.

[Coffey]

Oh, shit ya. I'd be all for that. Especially if it were just WWF/WWE. As long as we don't go back to WWWF and Vince Sr. days, I'll know everybody.

 

If we're shooting for best WWF wrestling though, we'll need criteria. I mean, are we going by workrate alone? Workrate, promo's, provided entertainment, feuds, matches?

[Loss]

We'll have to establish that ahead of time. Let me make sure there's more interest first, and then we'll collectively come up with whatever the criteria is and go from there.

[Al]

This seems odd, but the quality of the posts, and their lengths, can be somewhat intimidating. Sometimes I don't like to stop in this folder unless I know I have time to read all the good stuff. That is not a negative comment by any means, just an observation. It's a bitch to keep up with you guys!

 

As for the All-Time Tournament, WWE produced a magazine with their top 50 of all-time, so that seems like a good starting point, if you run with it. The big question would be how much attention do you pay to the '60s and '70s, when heels of the month would challenge the champion and then move around the country. There wasn't a set roster of guys then as there are today.

[Guest Some Guy]

To get an idea of what you guys have seen so I'll kinda know where to drive the discussion, what year did you start watching?

The first stuff I really remember well is the Mega Powers exploding leading up to WM 5 in 1989, I became a die hard after that and by the time WM 6 came around my parents knew not to bother me from 11-1 on Saturday so I could watch Superstars and Challenge in peace.

 

What promotions did you follow?

Really only WWF. I'm not sure I really even knew what WCW was until about 93, as I have a Clash on tape from that year, I must not have been too impressed by the Awesome Kongs vs Flair and Sting I guess because I didn't watch WCW again until late 95. I lost interst in wrestling sometime in 94 and paid no attention for a good part of 95. One night in November 95, while flipping through the channels I happened to stop on Raw and decided to give it another shot. I then found Nitro, I actually liked Nitro better at first because it had all the guys I grew up on, but the Owen/HBK angle after Survivor Series made me a WWF fan again. I would watch the replay of Nitro after Raw. In March 96 I started taping every Raw adn have nearly all of them between that time and late 99.

 

I discovered ECW in the summer of 96 at about 1:30 am on the Spanish channel and was hooked on it for a while. However by 97 WWF was getting way better and ECW was not, so my interest in ECW started waning.

 

Have you seen any puro? If so, what?

I've seen some, I have a Best of Benoit, Eddy, Owen, Foley, and the King of the Death match tourney that Foley won and some other stuff. Some ECW mark worked at a video store near me and he would order the garbage tapes from RF and put them on the shelf, so I have a fair amount of that type of shit that I really have no interest in watching. I rented one called "the bloodiest matches of all time" or something and didn't even dub it.

 

As dar as good puro goes, I'm sure GH will be hooking me up in exchange for more Raw stuff.

[Coffey]

I say we use wrestlers from Wrestlemania III to present. WCW, WWF & ECW. As far as criteria is concerned, I have no clue. I would just vote whom I liked better in the match-up. Of course, it'd just be from an overall personal opinion. Sometimes I prefer nostalgia or comedy over workrate.

[Loss]

Just wanted to let everyone know this is definitely in the works. I'm hoping to get a separate folder within the wrestling folder set up though, simply because this is going to require a lot of constant new topics, and that way, all the discussion stuff won't be bumped off the main page while this is ongoing.

 

Coffey, I'm thinking we can do an ECW tournament and a WCW tournament later, so that stretches it out because it gives us three tournaments we can do, and if we're still tourney-crazy, we can do an all-encompassing one at some point. Why don't we bump it back to 1985 instead of 1987, though, just so we're looking at an even 20 years?

[Guest Mac]

I love the tournament idea. It might actually get me to post more than 3 times a week.

[Loss]

http://s3.invisionfree.com/New_Millennium_...hp?showforum=20

 

This is the new tournaments subfolder. It's also at the very top of the wrestling folder page. We'll get this started.