Jetlag Posted September 2 Report Share Posted September 2 A guy on twitter has found a tape with Otto Wanz vs Big John Studd and Wanz vs Gian Haystacks, which sound new. I'm not sure if he has uploaded it anywhere yet, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 2 Report Share Posted September 2 1 hour ago, Jetlag said: A guy on twitter has found a tape with Otto Wanz vs Big John Studd and Wanz vs Gian Haystacks, which sound new. I'm not sure if he has uploaded it anywhere yet, though. Both sound very feasible for Otto. Otto Vs the visiting monster or visiting big name American that no one in 80s Germany actually knew was to Germany/Austria what Big Daddy tags were to the UK and what Flesh Gordon And The Cartoon Characters were to France. Hercules Cortez could have been an Otto Wanz for 60s Spain. Blond Adonis Shirley Crabtree likewise for opposition promotions in sixties Britain. George Tromaras was an attempt at an Otto Wanz in 1980s Greece, during the moribund years between the final World Kats Festival in September 1980 and the scene's actual expiry in 1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 2 Author Report Share Posted September 2 Eddy Steinblock vs. Axel Dieter (Wien, Summer 1987) I don't think I've seen these Axel Dieter matches from '87. He was still in pretty good shape here. Quite a hard-hitting and physical bout. The old guy put up quite the fight. I thoroughly enjoyed these clips. Reminded me of watching Lou Thesz matches from the 70s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 2 Report Share Posted September 2 Quote Nevertheless I shall persist with Chong and check out his 1980 German tournament appearance. Over to the German Catch thread ... Amet Chong who may or may not have been Chang Li from French TV Catch January 1974 and who definitely showed up on World Of Sport in England at the tail end of that year, came back across the Atlantic nearly 6:years later to the VDB and the September 1980 Hanover Cup. There was definitely Only One shooter here but Germany might be more accomodating to the likes of Chong (or Chech - sorry. had to get that one in). It's a slightly chubbier Chong than 1974 and Dieter has a BIG height advantage. He throws Chong around with cross buttocks and a toupee. Chong seems a bit freer to retaliate than with Marino. He gets in plenty of chops and floors Dieter with a double hand chop reminiscent of Bill Clarke as King Kendo in the UK. When he stomps Dieter (or more like he pats him affectionately with his bare foot) the referee only mildly chides him, back in Blighty Ernie Baldwin was all over Chong like a rash. Big Axel regains the advantage with a thunderous high arching stomp and a Grovit forcing Amet into the corner. Dieter, sat on one corner straight headscissor throws Amet over the top rope. Chong takes bumps trying to untwist wrist levers. The two do an old comedy spot about stamping on each others hands after winning a test of strength. Axel finally does some good technical work, backwards rolling out of a wrist lever, when the bell goes for Round 1. Not sure what record that is between rounds but it sounds very Boney M. Chong charges a Ross the ring as Round 2 starts, battering Dieter with full arm chops. Dieter is sut on his backside looking miffed. He gets up, absorbs a few more chops the BATTERS Chong with a mighty forearm smash or two, the ones WCW announcers named the European uppercut. Chong goes down to this. There is what looks like a botch where Dieter slingshots Chong into the ropes, he bounces back and falls sideways. Dieter tries again and slingshots Chong out of the ring. Chong makes it back but falls victim to a cross buttocks and cross press for the pin, in one round less than it took Mike Marino. Nonetheless Chong looked more comfortable and got to do more in this match. I shall have to rewatch that French tag match and see if it was indeed him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted September 2 Report Share Posted September 2 I can't think of any match-up that personifies classical European technical wrestling more. I'd put this in the Holy Grails thread but "holy grail" doesn't do this justice. But really, 1988 Germany appears to be a bit of a dead zone (neither cagematch nor wrestlingdata have results for either Magee nor Kamala working Europe in '88, and I had no idea Magee worked any non-WWF places after he was done in Stampede and All-Japan). I'm anxious to see what else is on this tape. Landy uncovered Mile Zrno vs. Dave Morgan on the same card that had Wanz-Haystacks, I'm hoping for something similar here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 41 minutes ago, PeteF3 said: I can't think of any match-up that personifies classical European technical wrestling more. I'd put this in the Holy Grails thread but "holy grail" doesn't do this justice. But really, 1988 Germany appears to be a bit of a dead zone (neither cagematch nor wrestlingdata have results for either Magee nor Kamala working Europe in '88, and I had no idea Magee worked any non-WWF places after he was done in Stampede and All-Japan). I'm anxious to see what else is on this tape. Landy uncovered Mile Zrno vs. Dave Morgan on the same card that had Wanz-Haystacks, I'm hoping for something similar here. Theeeee Magee Vs Bret match was due to appear on the second ITV WWF special 21st March 1987 (my 13th birthday) as a warm up for Hogan/Kamala. With Outback Jack also on the episode. It was pulled and replaced with Kendo/Rocco Vs Yamada/Myers from Croydon. Some fool wrote in to TVTimes to complain! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 If that's real, I'm assuming Big Jim Harris reverted back to the Mississippi Mauler for that German tour. Anyway he was in World Class if not in Aug 88 then shortly afterwards in Akbar's Devastation Inc who were helping Buddy Roberts in his feud with Hayes, Gordy and the Von Erichs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 On 8/12/2024 at 10:42 PM, David Mantell said: Posted November 4, 2013 Axel Dieter vs. Pat Roach (Hannover 1981) I really want to like this match as it's 30 minutes of Pat Roach, whose matches we have are almost always joined in progress, but it just doesn't go anywhere. This is second or third time I've tried watching it and I still can't find a hook to get me into it. Dieter stymies the match early on with boring holds, Roach roughs him up a bit and Dieter makes a comeback, but none of it is uninspired. In theory, this should be as good as Dieter vs. Moose Morowski, but it doesn't play out that way. A year before he played Bomber, a Yorkshire bricklayer travelling to Germany to work on a building project, Pat Roach makes the same journey in real life, travelling across the North Sea to make thousands of Deutschmarks to take back home to Blighty. Camera was slightly out of focus and @sergeiSem's copy has a tracking fault. Crowd are on homeboy Axel's side, singing something German to the tune of Yellow Submarine! Pat Roach and Pete Roberts had a fantastic clean match final of a 4 man KO tournament on ITV in the mid 80s (in the semis Roberts beat Stax by DQ and Roach beat Scrubber Daly) so there is no reason there should be anything boring about Dieter's holds (which by the end of Round 1 have included a sidewards folding press attempt and a flying headscissors) but Roach doesn't really do much to counter the holds, just shrugs them off. In the case of the headscissor he dumps Diter on the top rope. I guess Roach just feels as the heel he shouldn't be too technical and Dieter's technical game isn't too flashy either so we alternate between brawling and stationary holds. Roach cartwheels out of a toupee but falls over before he can reach upright. DJ plays Shakin' Stevens Green Door between rounds. Very 1981. Any chance of some Adam and the Ants, Herr DJ? Prince Charming was number one in the UK at this point. Whose disco version of Singing In The Rain is that? Gets heated later on with Axel getting down and dirty stomping Roach on the mat. Not too much wrestling but one helluva fight as Kent Walton's verdict would probably be. The odd slam on backbreaker across the knee. Action spills outside the ring and a spotlight comes on to illuminate this. Should have been left on all show long. Final scramble for pin in the last few seconds, bell runs out on Axels's last attempt. A draw. They glare at each other, Pat Roach wants more but Axel and the ref go off backstage. Video ends with offcuts of other match begins and ends. Overall verdict: could have done better. Audience liked it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 Watching a vlog on Heroes of Wrestling, the dark mat and dark lighting reminds me of VDB and their single cam cheap videos. What is it with that whole Dark Look? Especially on camera? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 On 8/27/2024 at 1:25 PM, David Mantell said: Franz Schumann interviewed an working out in an empty prefab glass roof venue with a couple of other youngsters. Franz does a nifty French style flying headscissor takedown, a trainee does British style rollout/kip up. Similar footage from 1994. Includes Giant Haystacks still taking bumps just a couple of years before Loch Ness in WCW and a comedy spot whereas referee accidentally pulls off a wrestler's boot (the Germans take their sense of humour very seriously indeed.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 3 Author Report Share Posted September 3 Steve Wright vs. Axel Dieter (Wien, Summer 1987) This got good as soon as Wright stopped doing his cutesy shit and began rocking Dieter with forearm smashes and vicious stomps. That's what I like to see from Steve Wright. Dieter struggled to get his licks in, at least in the clips, but it was fun watching Wright pummel him. I wish we saw this Steve Wright more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 6 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said: Steve Wright vs. Axel Dieter (Wein, Summer 1987) This got good as soon as Wright stopped doing his cutesy shit and began rocking Dieter with forearm smashes and vicious stomps. That's what I like to see from Steve Wright. Dieter struggled to get his licks in, at least in the clips, but it was fun watching Wright pummel him. I wish we saw this Steve Wright more often. Well I just have to respond to that. Nah. I prefer technical wrestling over brawling ANY DAY. Call me brainwashed by Kent Walton if you must. Actually to be fair it didn't collapse into a complete brawl, it reverted back to scientific wrestling periodically although less chain sequences and more big move, knockout counts, up at 9, repeat. (This is the same principle as 2 count false finishes in American Wrestling only with a prohibition on following down on the fallen opponent so the near knockouts are spaced out more than the near pinfalls.) Sadly this is lots of little clips which don't give much clue how one situation led to the next. In particular the ending is unclear - the End of Round bell going as Wright is up to 2 with a pinfall count on Axel. Is that the last round therefore a draw? Or was there more? Or did Steve get the pin? I'm not clear. This is Wright the same year as he took up goose stepping and dirty wrestling, went back to Britain, unseated his contemporary Marty Jones for his World title on ITV then didn't come back for the contractual rematch leaving Marty to face Owen Hart for the vacant title. Despite his heelish behaviour that time - and this time with all the stomps etc for which the referee tells him off- the crowd seem to be on his side rather than local legend Dieter. Did AD Snr go heel in the late 80s or was Steve's fanclub out in force? I'm not sure what was with the little bows. Maybe that's how Germans think posh Englishers behave (c.f. Japanese heels bowing.) but Wright didn't get any crowd heat for it. ******************* P.S. the penny drops - By "cutesy shit" did you specifically mean the bowing, not the technical skill? If so, fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 20 hours ago, PeteF3 said: Landy uncovered Mile Zrno vs. Dave Morgan It’s really good. Very different than their other more comedic match. I’m writing up Wanz vs Studd for Friday on SC, btw. It was lovely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 3 Author Report Share Posted September 3 1 hour ago, David Mantell said: P.S. the penny drops - By "cutesy shit" did you specifically mean the bowing, not the technical skill? If so, fair enough. Yes, however as a rule I prefer the Bull Blitzer version of Steve Wright to the Wonder Boy stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 59 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said: Yes, however as a rule I prefer the Bull Blitzer version of Steve Wright to the Wonder Boy stuff. Bull Blitzer, Bearcat Wright and Berlyn. It ran in the family as did being a Wonderboy/Wunderkind. By the 2010s the three of them were training kids for the pro ring in Germany and I saw a couple of their students in action in Leamington Spa at the Royal Spa Centre for All Star and they tended to flit between both personas. I get the point of the Jones/Bull Blitzer match but would much rather have seen Jones and Wright have an epic scientific battle. Steve Wright was about the top guy of the third generation of Wigan Snakepit students. Jones was a former schoolboy student of Billy Robinson (as documented in Granada TV's The Wrestlers from 1967) who also did some -much shorter - time at Riley's in the early 70s. Marty had his own later heel stint 1992-2000 for All Star. But both of them at that point could have had a mind blower of a technical match. One problem with Marty is that he tended to play the patriotic card against "foreign" opponents regardless of their style. As Bull was a heel character anyway this didn't matter so much, and it was fine with someone like Jean Paul Auvert who was the same nasty villain on both sides of the North Sea, but it did tend to grate when he encouraged fans to do the whole "ENG-ER-LAND!!!" thing with obviously classy opponents like Owen Hart or Marc Mercier who then had to wok extra hard to get themselves across as good guys here for a fine sporting contest. Mercier in particular did not need to be booed for a round or two until he had wowed the crowd with his fine skills (like Steamboat had to do in his 1989 matches Vs Flair after Bonnie had rubbed crowds up the wrong way.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 3 Report Share Posted September 3 1 hour ago, David Mantell said: it was fine with someone like Jean Paul Auvert who was the same nasty villain on both sides of the North Sea Here is Auvert being cruel and making fans cheer for Johnny "Mister Naughty Nicky Monroe " South years before he became kiddy hero and Mike Hegstrand impersonator the Legend of Doom. Lengthy work with a "headlock and strangle" (sleeper) Auvert keeps reapplying it. Still working on it by the end of Round One. And beyond into the round break. When South makes his comeback throwing Auvert out of the ring (check out that look of RAGE from Auvert) and slams and batters him the crowd are ROARING with delight and unhappy with the referee for restraining him. Auvert's muscleman pose angers the crowd. He's a less vocal Belgian version of Heel Alan Dennison. Crowd get quietly worried when South is down for a knockout count but overjoyed when South gets the one required fall. Auvert protests and flexes his cast iron biceps but to no avail. Three years later after Blitzer dethroned Jones, to get is rematch he first had to fight Auvert on ITV. TVTimes spoke of his Iron Man reputation. Jones won and then beat Owen Hart instead of Bull to take back the belt. South meanwhile ended Jones's final reign in Bristol May 1999. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 The CWA's answer to "If Only You Knew" from the WWF Slammys: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 I was doing a great job rushing through the new Bremen HH footage (Morgan vs Martin was great! Lasartesse vs Roocks was very good! I skipped to Morgan vs Zrno and that was great too.) but my momentum got destroyed by Haystacks vs Steinblock (what a Brutus Beefcake-y dude) and then Haystacks vs Wanz. Oof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 7 hours ago, Matt D said: what a Brutus Beefcake-y We did Wanz Vs Ed Leslie a couple of pages back. What vintage of Haystacks are we talking? Stax 1975-1976 teaming with a heel Daddy was a long way (and two decades) from Stax as Loch Ness in WCW 1996. I'm not expert on time periods for later Germans/Austrians. Growing up, Eddie Steinblock, Franz Schuman, Christian "Ecki" Eckstein, Ulf Herman and Michael Kovacs seemed all one generation but I guess they were spread over nearly 15 years from the mid 80s to the end of the 90s. The Aptermags were starting to wake up to the CWA, their titles were included in Inside Wrestling's roll call of champions. You would go to an All Star show, buy the glossy colour programme and inside it would say someone on the bill, say. Robbie Brookside, had recently been over to Germany and faced one or another of the above-listed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 5 Report Share Posted September 5 This is December 84. Lasartesse vs Paersey was a slugfest. Wright vs Rasputin was a really solid Wright mauling with a little bit of heat and a good finish. Couple of matches to go on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 5 Report Share Posted September 5 6 hours ago, Matt D said: This is December 84. Lasartesse vs Paersey was a slugfest. Wright vs Rasputin was a really solid Wright mauling with a little bit of heat and a good finish. Couple of matches to go on it. Is this Steve or Bernie? IIRC Bernie wrestled Rasputin on ITV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 5 Report Share Posted September 5 If Mighty John Quinn told the British people on television that they were cowards in World War IIB- in January 1979 at the peak of the Winter of Discontent and after a few years of pop culture assault to their way of life from Punk and Rasta - then I shudder to think what he said to the German public to get cheap heat about their part in said conflict. He's up against a fellow heel here and one of the more screamingly pantomime heels in Klaus Kauroff, a man who .if he came to Britain more often (he had the odd Reslo appearance) would be regular Big Daddy Tag Match fodder. Kauroff is wearing a big white cotton dressing gown - halfway between something from a posh spa and a maternity smock - instead of his usual canary yellow cape with sticks to hold it up - maybe he didn't yet have that? Actually the crowd seem to be on Quinn's side - maybe they heard about All Limeys Are Cowards and thought it cool. Quinn spend a lot of time putting headlocks/chinlocks on Kauroff. KK takes over and it becomes more of a WWF slug and punch brawl. Plenty of stomping on the mat and the bottom rope.Not too much Wrestling as Kent Walton would say.Very WWF but then Quinn was the Kentucky Butcher in the WWWF so no surprise. Quinn follows down with multiple elbowsmash in the way that would earn him heat and public warnings (this year he teamed with Kendo Nagasaki on ITV and at the Royal Albert Hall and was also DQd on ITV from Croydon against old nemesis Wayne Bridges.) Referee only gives him mild reproves but draws the line at giving a three count on a drape-across pin cover, orders Quinn off and starts a knockout count on Kauroff as per the rulebook but Quinn quickly interrupts with a stomp. Quinn powerslams Kauroff, gets several two counts.Ksuroff backdrops Quinn, gets a two count. Kicks him disgustedly. Crowd still cheers Quinn even when he cancels closed fist from the referee. Quinn gets a couple more pin attempts, with a rather clumsy folding press attempt. Clip cuts off. Oh dear, now we shall never know how that ended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 5 Report Share Posted September 5 Where is this venue? It looks like a communal space in the middle of a housing estate. I guess residents can watch for free from the comfort of their windows. It's also broad daylight. (the Quinn Vs Kauroff bout was the same place after dark.) A very elderly Peter Wilhelm (Otto's business partner and a couple of years later German commentator on Eurosport New Catch) comes down to be referee. Leon White comes out to Born in the USA, just 2 years after the US Express were using it in the WWF. A little over a year earlier "Babyface Bull" was a white meat babyface challenger to then AWA World Champion Stan Hansen. Now look at him, fresh from having accepted the role of Big Van Vader in New Japan after Jim Hellwig turned it down. Sporting a Road Warrior Hawk haircut and dog collar. He's also sporting the CWA World title belt which he won off Wanz back home in Colorado and has come to Europe to defend.. Quinn as later that day is the babyface - "Johnny! Johnny!" - coming down to THAT song by Manfred Mann which he also used a lot in England (including Wembley Arena 1979.) Bull Power has all the same moves as Big Daddy - bodychecks, slam. splash. Quinn has learned since the Daddy feud and blocks the splash with his knees. Quinn takes over. Another back and forth slug and punch. Bull attacks Quinn between rounds, Quinn knocks Bull Power out of the ring. Peter's t-shirt gets ripped up revealing one out of shape body. Female fan can be heard getting the giggles. Normally I would take offence but she actually sounds quite sexy and it's not like she's laughing at classic scientific wrestling. Vader turns on Wilhelm and beas him up viciously. I guess that got him DQd. It certainly got him a rematch ... Later that afternoon with a different referee, sky is darker now. More strength match than a brawl. Bull slaps MJQ who looks like he can't believe someone did that to him. Forearm smashes and clotheslines exchanged. Quinn gets a leg, Bull goes for the ropes. Quinn gets a Big Daddy splash for the first fall and first actual pin of the match series. They brawl outside the ring. Bull Power apparently gets a second straight fall. Another wrestler comes to help Quinn but Bull wallops him and leaves with arms raised. What Daddy Vs Quinn 1979 would have been if Max Crabtree had allowed Quinn to get any offence in on his big brother. Otto would regain the title in July. Bull Power would win it again in 1989 and a third time in 1990 beating Rambo to win the vacant title then dropping it to Rambo one last time in 1991 before going to WCW full time as Big Van Vader to replace Lex Luger as Harley Race 's Sith apprentice and Sting's heel nemesis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mantell Posted September 5 Report Share Posted September 5 Quote Klaus Wallas vs. Jörg Chenok (Bamberg 4/3/83) I quite like Klaus Wallas. He was an Austrian judoka who represented Austria at the '76 Olympics, if I'm not mistake, and debut around '78. He seemed to get the hang of wrestling pretty well. He knew how to clobber people and how to sell and struck me as a guy with good timing. This was a decent showcase for him and featured some neat work from Chenok as well. If Kent Walton in 1985 was to be belied. Jorg Chenok was European Welterweight Champion at this point, having won it off Wolfgang Saturski in 1981. What can be validated is that he turned up as champion in 1985 (seven years after Dynamite Kid cleared off to Stampede) to lose it to Danny Collins in a match screened on ITV on FA Cup Final Day, leading to Collins spending long hot summers in the late 80s driving round France and Northern Spain defending his title on FFCP shows. Back home in Germany Chenok was the form but fair hard nosed blue eye and here he faces bratty young strutting heel Wallas. Jorg reminds me of Mike Flash Jordan before he went "funny" on Johnny Saint during their 1988 World title feud. Wallas reminds me of Ritchie Brooks in the early 90s or his heavier Leeds Boys tag partner Tarzan Boy Darren Ward once he took went heel (although facially he is more like Erik Watts.). Maybe an evil version of pre-WCW Steve Regal- I guess that sounds odd to you Americans who only know him as Lord Steven or William, but Wallas/Regal about 5 years later would have been a great match. Not really much chain wrestling, more big moves to try to get knockout counts from the start, something in Britain one doesn't usually do until later on in the match. The odd bit of dirty from Wallas. Chenok makes his blue-eye comeback with forearms, dropkicks and a quick wrenching arm scissor before Wallas gets the one submission required with a straight arm lift. Music between rounds includes infamous 80s wedding party/holiday disco favourite Agadoo by Black Lace (later satirised by Spitting Image's The Chicken Song.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 5 Report Share Posted September 5 5 hours ago, David Mantell said: Is this Steve or Bernie? IIRC Bernie wrestled Rasputin on ITV. Steve. No one else looks/moves like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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