Why is America always assumed to be the centre of the wrestling universe?

[sek69]

1 hour ago, David Mantell said:

Enough for it to be profitable, not enough for them to feel generous enough to properly share the proceeds with The Boys.

It helps that the magic of pro wrestling is fairly universal. Like sure its better when you fully understand the storylines and motivations, but you can watch a really good match from Japan or Mexico in their native commentary languages and still be able to realize you just watched something pretty damn great. 

[David Mantell]

4 hours ago, David Mantell said:

I could also mention Jayne "Klondyke Kate" Porter wrestling in Nigeria in front of 10K.

Since I've mentioned wrestling in Nigeria- and television there and findng old Doctor Who episodes there - here are some anecdotes from Orig Williams of Reslo fame about promoting in Nigeria and getting the seal of approval of the local ruler the Obong and having to light a stadium show with car lights ...
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=f2g3DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT87&lpg=PT87&dq="OBONG"+"ORIG+wILLIAMS"&source=bl&ots=u7twcgDK5W&sig=ACfU3U0kceziPyMwjy1pVyZ830q72Zf5nQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj6mZelj9WCAxXVWEEAHS0fARQQ6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q="OBONG" "ORIG wILLIAMS"&f=false

[David Mantell]

37 minutes ago, Cien Caras said:

The legacy that endures is fat men bumping bellies like Daddy and Haystacks (and various other King Kongs, Scrubbers, Rasputins etc),

Daddy was one particular direction in which promoter Max Crabtree pushed.  It was succesful in terms of making him a household name and filling up venues with family audiences but it alienated enough fans and wrestlers to create a gap in the marketplace for an opposition promoter to build a red hot promotion which eventually took over.

37 minutes ago, Cien Caras said:

masked Samurai warriors who can hypnotize opponents, clowns like Catweazle and Les Kellet and comic villains like Mick McManus and Crybaby Jim Breaks, maniac rollerballs  etc

Kendo, JIm Breaks and Rollerball Rocco were all gifted pure wrestlers (as was Kellett come to that and I would add Adrian Street to that list.) and this was central to their credibility.  Breaks especially fans respected his skills even if they hated the guy and liked to throw pacifiers into the ring at him.

 

37 minutes ago, Cien Caras said:

Quote

Bert Assirati, heavyweight champion from 1925

When he turned seventeen? (Okay there have been a few promising whizzkids who bagged themselves Lightweight and Welterweight titles at that sort of age - Dynamite Kid, Danny Collins, Kid McCoy etc) He turned pro as part of the first wave of intake of Athol Oakley's All In Wrestling in 1930.

I'd be sceptical of that piece, it sounds like a generalising journalist spouting the usual cynical cliches

**********************************************

British wrestling definitely took things down a different direction with a different philosophy from American Wrestling.  This doesnt mean that many of the same promotional techniques weren't tried and they especially lured in the casual public, but there was a backbone of serious wrestling there that gave it a credibility that many of the older generation have found severely lacking in WWE since the 80s.  It's an easy pub conversation to have in England, how "that was Proper Wrestling back then, not like this American rubbish they have on now."

My general understanding is that inside the business on each side of the Atlantic it was a case of "the grass is greener on the other side."  The American locker rooms admired and envied the British for their legit skills in the ring.  The British boys (and girls)  admired and envied the Americans for their sharper grasp of ring psychology and manipulating a crowd.

Looking back on it all these years later, Americans like some of you are aghast at the lack of storytelling in most traditional British matches while Brits like me wonder why on earth there seems to be virtually no defences, counters, reversals - "undressing" of holds as Kent Walton used to put it - in the American game, even in bouts like the '89 Flair/Steamboat series.

[David Mantell]

I'd further say that from an American business perspective, British wrestling was "Gym Boy ridden" (and had a TV commentator that supported this and tried to educate his viewers to appreciate wrestling from this position.)

Here are some Brits on the mic from the last two years of ITV when promos were suddenty introduced:

 

[NintendoLogic]

Not gonna lie, that Mark Rocco promo at 6:43 was straight fire.

[David Mantell]

3 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

Not gonna lie, that Mark Rocco promo at 6:43 was straight fire.

Quite a few of the heels - Stax, Rocco, Kendo's manager George Gillette, Finlay (not in this compilation) hd the gift of the gab.  So did Daddy.  A lot of people however basically came from the Bob Backlund (when not going crazy) school of interviews.  You can't blame them, they'd not been trained with this as part of their skillset.

Here's Haystacks doing a snackfood advert to show how he was one of the camera savvy few:

 

[ohtani's jacket]

4 hours ago, David Mantell said:

Well here's what we know about television in Zimbabwe/Rhodesia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZBC_TV

Doesn't mention British wrestling but does mention WWF Superstars (and Doctor Who!)  The Honorary Citizen Haystacks thing happened during Mugabe's rule, presumably some time in the 80s.

Possibly the white population had their own segregated wrestling scene.  Wrestling was big in apartheid era South Africa (although if anything their wrestling felt a lot like the CWA) and Stax visited the territory:
 

p.s. okay, that makes two places in the world along with France that still had that string thing down the middle of the ropes any time after the 1930s.

The thing is South Africa didn't even get television until 1976. 

Something is off about the timeline that's being presented. If it's Pat Roach and Max Crabtree talking about selling British wrestling to overseas countries then it must have been from a later period than (a) I'm interested in as a fan or a collector and (b) the kinescopes that I've seen or have in my possession, which date from the mid-60s to the mid-70s It certainly doesn't match the Dr. Who period of the 1960s.

I do believe that ITV wrestling made it to television stations overseas, I just don't think it had the impact that's being suggested. It reminds me of New Japan and Joshi airing in Italy in the 1980s. An interesting footnote, but not something that had an impact on the business. 

[David Mantell]

I'd say the escapes and reversals made it more realistic if anything.

When caught in an armbar the British would untwist the arm by rolling  on the mat and the French would untwist the arm by leaping up into the flying headscissors position, but both those make more sense to me than what American wrestlers do - nothing, just stand there selling it!

[ohtani's jacket]

5 hours ago, David Mantell said:

An interesting side issue is what Japan or America or Australia would have made of European wrestling (other than perhaps 1980s CWA).  Japan pretty much remodelled its scene entirely after getting Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson at the turn of the 60s/70s.

America however simply didn't get the point of clean sportsmanly babyface matches and lighter weight wrestling - it ran counterintuitive to everything the American fans had been taught to expect (big guys with Personal Issues with each other fighting it out to settle the score).  Australia, well, I guess younger fans who only knew Jim Barnett's company which was basically American wrestling imported would have gone the same way as Americans although in the 60s/70s there would have been an older generation whom WoS and Le Catch would have reminded of the earlier, purely Australian wrestling up to the 50s.

To view the other side of the coin, ITV and Britain were certainly not ready for Wild Crazy No Holds Barred American Wrestling in the 60s/70s.  France was easing up and allowing more out of the ring brawls on TV, but in Britain the IBA kept it all fairly clean and classy.  (A few mins of the 1976 Shea Stadium match between The Executioners vs Strongbow and White Wolf, the latter being a familiar face on ITV from about 1969 IIRC and would be back as The Sheik a couple of years later, did find its way onto World of Sport in summer '76 as a warm up for Andre vs Chuck Wepner and Ali vs Inoki.)

But if you want to see the cultural divide at work, reread the early posts on the British and French wrestling threads on this forum from before I came along.

How did Japan remodel its scene after Gotch and Robinson arrived? Japan actually provided work for a number of European workers throughout the 70s and 80s, and NJPW liked to send its rookies to the UK, so they weren't oblivious towards European wrestling. 

US fans would have instinctively understood the heel vs. face matches on ITV, as well as the showcase matches from the wilder personalities. The 60s still had plenty of "technical" wrestling, for want of a better term, and that continued into the 70s and 80s. France was wilder than the UK in terms of brawling, but there were plenty of heated ITV bouts over the years. 

[David Mantell]

3 minutes ago, Cien Caras said:

On the international front, Calgary wrestling aired on the Caribbean (I don’t recall which island specifically) which led to them doing a tour there, World Class was shown in the Middle East and they had a tour there. I have an older Egyptian friend who says wrestling was big there in the 50s/60s but when pressed only remembers Prince Kumali as a name (someone I recall seeing show up in the UK). 

All Star also went on a tour of Israel in 1987 just a coupleof years after World Class - Mtizi Mueller vs Klondyke Kate and Kendo Nagasaki & Psycho Stevens vs Steve Regal and Dave Taylor, with promoter Brian Dixon refereeing.

Here's the whole gang at Ben Gurion Airport.

[David Mantell]

3 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

How did Japan remodel its scene after Gotch and Robinson arrived? Japan actually provided work for a number of European workers throughout the 70s and 80s, and NJPW liked to send its rookies to the UK, so they weren't oblivious towards European wrestling. 

Inasmuch as before that in the 50s/60s it was a big exercise in jingoism all about honourable Japanese babyfaces vs round eyed Gaijin usually American heels

 

[David Mantell]

7 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

France was wilder than the UK in terms of brawling, but there were plenty of heated ITV bouts over the years. 

The IBA had very strict rules about fighting outside of the ring

(and also the ref being firmly in charge and not an ineffective wimp like in America much less the quasi heel figures they became in France.  Which is why you got tough no nonsense characters like Max Ward as the rule, not the exception like Roger Delaporte and Gorilla Monsoon as a special ref were.)

[David Mantell]

15 minutes ago, Cien Caras said:

Johnny Saint and his ilk was pure showmanship and nonsense of the best variety what with the rolling into balls and crawling in between legs and bopping up and down to get out of a hammerlock, getting the baddies all flustered.

Personally I thought he did his best work in clean matches with another similar technician.

Didn't seem nonsense to me at all, that he would try and extend the opponent's grip down so that (1) it would loosen the angle of the hammerlock (2) he could then hook his leg in and use it to break the hold and leave the opponent's arm spare and open to attack. Flamboyant way of doing it yes, but it was based on a competitive logic, there is probably a far less showy legit escape that is nonetheless based on the same principles.

And yes I know what a real wrestling match looks like:

 

[ohtani's jacket]

9 hours ago, David Mantell said:

Inasmuch as before that in the 50s/60s it was a big exercise in jingoism all about honourable Japanese babyfaces vs round eyed Gaijin usually American heels

 

Gotch and Robinson arriving in Japan didn't change this part of the Japanese wrestling culture. It continued well into the 80s and beyond. The biggest shift in wrestling that occurred was the rise of high profile native vs. native matches, which became more frequent in the 70s. Gotch had an influence on the shoot style movement, and Robinson was an influence on workers like Jumbo Tsuruta, but it's a fantasy to suggest that they brought proper wrestling to Japan. 

[ohtani's jacket]

10 hours ago, David Mantell said:

The IBA had very strict rules about fighting outside of the ring

(and also the ref being firmly in charge and not an ineffective wimp like in America much less the quasi heel figures they became in France.  Which is why you got tough no nonsense characters like Max Ward as the rule, not the exception like Roger Delaporte and Gorilla Monsoon as a special ref were.)

Again, it's a complete fantasy that British wrestling was full of gentlemanly bouts where they wrestled good, clean bouts. On any given card, there would be a number of matches like that, but there were also pure heel vs. babyface spectacles that were completely universal. The action was even wilder in the halls away from the cameras, and even more gimmicky in All-Star. The grappling contests may represent the best in British wrestling, but the comedy bouts, the heel vs. face bouts, and the hot feuds were a big part of what drew. The grappling contests weren't always that well received, either. Walton was constantly making excuses for why the crowd were quiet, or defending the match as someone only fans of pure wrestling would enjoy (or understand.)

Walton was an interesting commentator whose commentary hasn't really been studied enough. He could be savage if he thought a match was  boring or if he thought the workers weren't trying hard enough. He had his guys he liked, and his style of wrestling he preferred. I suppose commentating it for as long as he did, he was bound to fire a few shots every now and again. 

[NintendoLogic]

It should be noted that Walton was pretty much marking out by the end of the 1983 Dynamite Kid/Marty Jones match, calling it "a hell of a bout." And that was as much of a clear-cut heel/babyface contest as you'll find anywhere.

[David Mantell]

2 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Again, it's a complete fantasy that British wrestling was full of gentlemanly bouts where they wrestled good, clean bouts

There were a considerably higher proportion than in American wrestling and they still occur even now. All Star had them on its show on Screens port and there were plenty on Reslo too.

There was a definite imbalance towards "clean wrestlers" - say 70-30. In America it was more 50-50.

A lot of heel Vs blue eye bouts started off (and still start off) technical.

[David Mantell]

14 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

It should be noted that Walton was pretty much marking out by the end of the 1983 Dynamite Kid/Marty Jones match, calling it "a hell of a bout."

Jim Ross and Tony Schiovone circa '88 would be winging about Dynamite "betraying his fans" - that's far more marking out.

And I stand by my point about out of the ring fighting or ineffective/suspect referees - the broadcasting rules were very strict about those.

[David Mantell]

2 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Gotch and Robinson arriving in Japan didn't change this part of the Japanese wrestling culture. It continued well into the 80s and beyond

It didn't eradicate it but it started the shift away from it towards what Puroresu is more famous for. It began to Europify puro.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm sorry, but Dory Funk Jr was already working title matches against Inoki and Baba before Gotch and Robinson came along, not to mention matches like Inoki vs Brisco and The Destroyer vs. Baba where if there was any heeling from the gaijin it was the same level of heeling you'd expect from any outsider entering a foreign territory. 

Gotch had some influence on strong style and the shoot style guys, but the Funks had just as much impact on the business in AJPW. In fact, the Funks getting over as babyfaces was a huge change in the wrestling culture at the time even if US brawling was still the primary style of match outside of title bouts. 

What's more, Inoki's efforts to promote himself as the best fighter in the world by working faux MMA matches was beyond anything that had been conceived of in Europe unless I'm forgetting any boxer vs. wrestler matches that were promoted over there. 

I won't deny that British workers had an influence on Japanese wrestling. As far as I'm concerned, Dynamite, Rocco and Jones basically created the junior heavyweight wrestling style. However, Europe cannot claim sole responsibility from pushing Japan away from jingoism, as you call it. I'd also like to point out that the Brits reacted to jingoism the same as any other fanbase when it was presented to them. In fact, it was quite unique as it was more angle driven than the wrestling they were used to and they seemed to enjoy the mic work and spectacle of it all. 

[ohtani's jacket]

36 minutes ago, David Mantell said:

There were a considerably higher proportion than in American wrestling and they still occur even now. All Star had them on its show on Screens port and there were plenty on Reslo too.

There was a definite imbalance towards "clean wrestlers" - say 70-30. In America it was more 50-50.

A lot of heel Vs blue eye bouts started off (and still start off) technical.

Yes, clearly there was a higher proportion than in American wrestling. That's why people like Gotch struggled to get over in the States. However, the archetypal World of Sport bout was the type of match that started off cleanly enough but disintegrated into a series of forearm smashes and public warnings before some type of awful finish. Especially during catchweight contests. Joint Promotions had some of the worst finishes in the business, which is actually an era where Japanese wrestling made great strides in after the success of the UWF. They certainly didn't get clean finishes from British wresting. 

[David Mantell]

4 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Joint Promotions had some of the worst finishes in the business, which is actually an era where Japanese wrestling made great strides in after the

Specifically?

I recall you're not a fan of no contest on a refused TKO (a less time consuming alternative to a 1-1 draw.)

DQ's were not seen as cheap finishes, they were seen as the heel disgracing him/herself by proving he/she couldn't cleanly compete.  Titles were changed on DQs.  MCs would shout " (X)  ... is DISQUALIFIED!" like an angry schoolteacher sentencing a pupil to punishment, and the heel would rant and rave at the injustice and humiliation.

[David Mantell]

17 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Something is off about the timeline that's being presented. If it's Pat Roach and Max Crabtree talking about selling British wrestling to overseas countries then it must have been from a later period than (a) I'm interested in as a fan or a collector and (b) the kinescopes that I've seen or have in my possession, which date from the mid-60s to the mid-70s It certainly doesn't match the Dr. Who period of the 1960s.

Pat Roach certainly was in the right period for having matches kinescoped - for example this one:  (at 16:20)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grOxF-sHVF0&t=980s

(it's not letting it embed for some reason, never mind)

He also made his UK TV debut in 1966 (against Billy Joyce) and had late 60s matches with Billy Robinson, Judo Al Hayes and Steve Veidor among others.

Max Crabtree got appointed "matchmaker" (booker) for Best/Wryton around 1975, just about the end of b/w kinescopes but at a time when ITV was still doing this with colour film copies (T.Rex famously appeared on the Bay City Rollers' "Shang A Lang" show in '75 performing "New York City - years later a rather weatherbeaten colour kinescope of this fell into the hands of Bolan's fanclub and got included as the "official promo" of the song on The Ultimate Video Collection in 1992.  The master tape copy eventually turned up as an extra on the DVD release of the 1977 Granada TV "Marc" show)

[David Mantell]

On 11/19/2023 at 8:10 AM, David Mantell said:

Anyway, to summarise, Northwest Europe in the 1960/1970s/early 1980s had:

• higher profile TV (and other media eg TVTimes) windows for wrestling
• greater public respectability for wrestling (esp Britain)
• in the case of Germany, more heavily interwoven into the fabric of traditional culture.

than North America during the same period and this has lead to:

• the survival in 2023 of more traditional old school wrestling cultures (3 versus 1  -  2 if you count Puerto Rico)

Bumping this up just to remind people of the main nub of my argument.

[David Mantell]

On 11/18/2023 at 10:04 PM, David Mantell said:

Why the United States is automatically ASSUMED to always have been the Big Time worldwide capital of professional wrestling.  Is it just patriotism/chauvinism on the part of American wrestling fans?

Interesting actual example of this (not relating to Europe) :

In 1989 one of the Aptermags did a piece on wrestlers who were "Lost In The Shuffle" (not doing as well as they either were previously or might be expected to be doing.) 

Terry Gordy at this point was in a very successful tag team with Stan Hansen in Japan and a year or so later would form an even more successful tag team with Steve Williams.

This wasn't good enough for the Aptermag writers who claimed that if Gordy didn't drop all this Japanese tag team malarkey and head back to the US "he'll soon be the answer to a Trivial Pursuit question - Who was the third Freebird?"