Undertaker v Brock Lesnar - Hell in the Cell

[Guest Some Guy]

I watched Taker/Brock: HiaC from No Mercy 02 last night. It is underrated but there are a couple of galring spots that keep it from being great IMO.

 

The backstory is that Taker had his right hand broken by Brock not once but twice in the weeks leading up to the match. Taker even gets an "unethical" shot of pain killer in the hand before the match. So how does the match start, you ask? With Taker punching with his right hand, of course.

 

Brock tries to escape the cage at the very beginning,showing fear and then goes back in and beats the hell out of Taker. Huh? If he's scared why would take it right to the guy? The fear thign should have been dropped. Brock is like 280 lbs and a former college wrestler, he's not 210 lb Shawn Michaels. Brock shouldn't show fear because he shouldn't be afraid.

 

The assorted punches and cast shots that start apparently don't bother him but when Brock does anything to his hand Taker screams in pain. The screaming deal is cool because Taker rarely sells that way but the punches don't make sense.

 

Taker has Brock laid out on the ring apron and goes to the top for some reason. I think he originally was planning to do a leg drop but them realized that landing ass first on the apron from that height would really hurt, so he drops about the worst looking knee drop I've ever seen.

 

Brock takes over and destroys Taker's broken hand, including using Heymen's belt to tie it to the cage and beat it with a chair. That was cool.

 

But a few mintues later Brock goes for a superplex, Taker counters an climbs ot the top, he then proceeds to reach up adn grab the roof of the cell with his broken hand (the cast had been ripped off by this point) to balance himself as he walks the ropes to drop a really crappy elbow.

 

Taker also ignores the broken hand selling to give Brock a chokeslam (with his right hand) and the Last Ride (which requires using both hands to lift Brock up before slamming him).

 

At other points in the match Taker does a great job of selling the hand, like not beign able to pick up the "50 lb steel steps".

 

The finish kind of came out of nowhere. Brock works the broken hand for most of the match but he finishes him with an F-5. I hate that type of shit. HHH pisses me off in the same way by working the knee for 15 minutes and then winning with a Pedigree. They should have worked a few submission spots into the match where Taker refuses to quit, so Brock would have a reason to abandon the arm work. If Taker won't quit then there is no point in continuing with it, but to still makes sense to try at the beginning.

 

The intensity level was not where it should have been for a HiaC.

 

But anyone who says that Taker never puts anyone over should look at this match. He got the shit kicked out of him for a lot of it and then jobbed clean to Brock's finisher. Brock should have been a huge draw after this and he wasn't. I'm not sure if that's because of business being horrible, Brock not conecting with the people, or Taker not meaning as much as he used to. Probably a combo of all three with the Brock not connedting being the leading cause. He never struck me as scary, he always looked goofy and dopey to me. That stupid bouncing thing he did on his entrance, his roided up bloated physque, and his face are my reasons. I realize that they fucked with him a little by turning him face and then heel too soon but the push he got should have gotten him way over. It did for Goldberg who was a vastly inferior worker.

 

This guy was put over the entire roster clean a whistle (Show, Angle, Hogan, Taker, RVD, Rock, etc...), given the title after about 4 months of being on TV, and only was really over at WM 20 and that was because he was leaving.

[goodhelmet]

I watched Taker/Brock: HiaC from No Mercy 02 last night.  It is underrated but there are a couple of galring spots that keep it from being great IMO.

 

The backstory is that Taker had his right hand broken by Brock not once but twice in the weeks leading up to the match.  Taker even gets an "unethical" shot of pain killer in the hand before the match.  So how does the match start, you ask?  With Taker punching with his right hand, of course.

 

Brock tries to escape the cage at the very beginning,showing fear and then goes back in and beats the hell out of Taker.  Huh?  If he's scared why would take it right to the guy?  The fear thign should have been dropped.  Brock is like 280 lbs and a former college wrestler, he's not 210 lb Shawn Michaels.  Brock shouldn't show fear because he shouldn't be afraid.

 

The assorted punches and cast shots that start apparently don't bother him but when Brock does anything to his hand Taker screams in pain.  The screaming deal is cool because Taker rarely sells that way but the punches don't make sense.

 

Taker has Brock laid out on the ring apron and goes to the top for some reason.  I think he originally was planning to do a leg drop but them realized that landing ass first on the apron from that height would really hurt, so he drops about the worst looking knee drop I've ever seen.  

 

Brock takes over and destroys Taker's broken hand, including using Heymen's belt to tie it to the cage and beat it with a chair.  That was cool.

 

But a few mintues later Brock goes for a superplex, Taker counters an climbs ot the top, he then proceeds to reach up adn grab the roof of the cell with his broken hand (the cast had been ripped off by this point) to balance himself as he walks the ropes to drop a really crappy elbow.

 

Taker also ignores the broken hand selling to give Brock a chokeslam (with his right hand) and the Last Ride (which requires using both hands to lift Brock up before slamming him).  

 

At other points in the match Taker does a great job of selling the hand, like not beign able to pick up the "50 lb steel steps".

 

The finish kind of came out of nowhere.  Brock works the broken hand for most of the match but he finishes him with an F-5.  I hate that type of shit.  HHH pisses me off in the same way by working the knee for 15 minutes and then winning with a Pedigree.  They should have worked a few submission spots into the match where Taker refuses to quit, so Brock would have a reason to abandon the arm work.  If Taker won't quit then there is no point in continuing with it, but to still makes sense to try at the beginning.

 

The intensity level was not where it should have been for a HiaC.  

 

But anyone who says that Taker never puts anyone over should look at this match.  He got the shit kicked out of him for a lot of it and then jobbed clean to Brock's finisher.  Brock should have been a huge draw after this and he wasn't.  I'm not sure if that's because of business being horrible, Brock not conecting with the people, or Taker not meaning as much as he used to.  Probably a combo of all three with the Brock not connedting being the leading cause.  He never struck me as scary, he always looked goofy and dopey to me.  That stupid bouncing thing he did on his entrance, his roided up bloated physque, and his face are my reasons.  I realize that they fucked with him a little by turning him face and then heel too soon but the push he got should have gotten him way over.  It did for Goldberg who was a vastly inferior worker.

 

This guy was put over the entire roster clean a whistle (Show, Angle, Hogan, Taker, RVD, Rock, etc...), given the title after about 4 months of being on TV, and only was really over at WM 20 and that was because he was leaving.

Beautiful man.

 

I wish other people would do the same and really look at a match like this.

 

Keep in mind, I haven't seen this thing complete since last year. If I had held it under the microscope, I might have come to the same conclusions. With that said, I think if you did the same thing to Foley-Trips, Brock-Taker would still be the superior match. Then again, there is only one way to find out.... watch the matches.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

The finish kind of came out of nowhere. Brock works the broken hand for most of the match but he finishes him with an F-5.

Okay, honestly; what did you expect Brock to finish him with? A wristlock?

 

I don't get the whole "the body part you work HAS to factor into the finish" bit. Brock worked the hand because it was already injured, so it allowed him to get control.

 

And I wouldn't say it was out of nowhere. Taker hits the chokeslam for two, so he goes for the Last Ride to finish. That doesn't work, so he goes for the Tombstone. But Brock manages to counter, and because he's scary strong, he had Taker in perfect position to F5 him. I mean, I didn't really expect the match to end like that when I was watching it, but I wouldn't say it was totally out of nowhere. Taker was obviously looking to finish the match, but Brock managed to hit his big move and get a quick pin first (Taker took too long after the Last Ride).

 

I agree though, it was kinda odd to see Brock try to get out of the cage. I think the goal was to reinforce the fact that they're locked in, but it just looked silly the way they did it.

[Guest Some Guy]

The finish kind of came out of nowhere. Brock works the broken hand for most of the match but he finishes him with an F-5.

Okay, honestly; what did you expect Brock to finish him with? A wristlock?

 

 

I don't get the whole "the body part you work HAS to factor into the finish" bit. Brock worked the hand because it was already injured, so it allowed him to get control.

I didn't say that it had to. I just think that working a body part for most of the match and then just forgetting about it is stupid. He should have put Taker in an arm submission or 2, Taker refuses to quit, Brock gets a little frustrated and realizes that Taker won't tap so he needs to try somethign else and have the announcers tell the ausience that that is what is happening.

 

And I wouldn't say it was out of nowhere. Taker hits the chokeslam for two, so he goes for the Last Ride to finish. That doesn't work, so he goes for the Tombstone. But Brock manages to counter, and because he's scary strong, he had Taker in perfect position to F5 him. I mean, I didn't really expect the match to end like that when I was watching it, but I wouldn't say it was totally out of nowhere. Taker was obviously looking to finish the match, but Brock managed to hit his big move and get a quick pin first (Taker took too long after the Last Ride).

"Out of nowhere" was probably not the best way to say it. The ending was abrupt and kind of anti-climatic. There weren't very many near falls that Taker kicked out of, it was just F-5 and see you later. The crowd did chant "1-2-3" but they could have built up the finish with Brock getting some nearfalls off suplexes and such, then they could have gone into the Brock blocking the Last Ride and hitting the F-5 and it would have popped the place huge.

 

I agree though, it was kinda odd to see Brock try to get out of the cage. I think the goal was to reinforce the fact that they're locked in, but it just looked silly the way they did it.

If that is what they wanted to get over then it should have been Heymen who was trying to get the cage open from the outside. He was selling it like Brock should be scared but Brock really didn't during the angle and the match other than that sillyness with the door. Or Taker could have gone to the door and pulled on the lock to make sure that they were locked in and be happy about it. There were other ways to do that than make your monster heel champion look like a pussy and have a spot totally out of context with the rest of the match.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

I didn't say that it had to.

Yeah, I know you didn't, but a lot of people do and it's a pet peeve, so I jumped to conclusions anyway.

 

The ending was abrupt and kind of anti-climatic.

That I will agree on.

 

He was selling it like Brock should be scared but Brock really didn't during the angle and the match other than that sillyness with the door.

Well, that and at the start of the match Brock seemed a little wary. I think what they were going for, overall, was that not only was Brock facing a guy with 12 years in the biz, but a guy who was in his 5th HitC, whereas Brock was only in his first. I think you're right though; a better spot would have been to have Taker knock Brock down with some big move (maybe a boot or clothesline) which ended with Taker being near the door, so he gives it a shake to make sure it's locked, and smiles.

 

Also, I've gotta give props to Heyman for his part in the match. Okay, maybe he didn't need to blade too (on a side note though, I love that aspect of the match; Brock does an okay blade job, but then Paul is like "No Brock, like THIS" and then Taker just goes "Amateurs. Watch and learn") but his shouts during the match are pretty damned comical.

 

"BROCK! BROCK! YOU'RE LOSING!!!

[Loss]

I wish the announcers would actually sell the history on matches like this, instead of leaving us to wonder if the story they were going for was accidental or intentional. Did Cole and Tazz even state that it was 'Taker's 5th HIAC? I don't remember if they did or not.

[Guest Some Guy]

Cole did say it was his 5th. He didn't mention that Taker was only 2-2 in them though. Lost to HBK and in the 6-Way, beat Bossman and Foley.

 

I just wish the announcers would put over the story of the match better. Heymen was great at this. I think the announcers the workers should get together before the show and talk about what they plan to so in their match so that it can be put over properly by the announcers.

 

I was going to do a write up on the Taker/Brock match prior to their HiaC but fell asleep during the pre-match video package. It was about 3:00am. I'm really unsure as to why I bought those DVDs, I know I haven't watched the two PPVs in their entirety. They were probably cheaper than usual or I had some money burning a whole in my pocket (as my mother would say) at the time.

[Loss]

I remember Meltzer once saying that announcers in WWE who do preparation are looked down upon because they're perceived as being marks. How stupid.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

Heymen was great at this.

"It is all about the leverage!"

 

Heymen was such a great commentator. Bring him back, dammit!

[Guest Some Guy]

Are you serious? That's the stupiest thing I've ever heard. Although it would explain some of the stupid comments that Lawler makes during matches. I think that Cole does do some prep work as he always seems to know the gimmick names for finishers, which JR never seems to know. I can't stand that he calls Shelton's finisher a "T-Bone suplex" when it is clearly not. I though Tazz might say something during the RR but he didn't.

 

While I'm bitching about announcers, why is it that Tazz calls a chinlock a rear naked choke?

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

But it made perfect sense in the context of the match (Angle vs Benoit) where the two were, quite literally, wrestling.

 

And, in cases where two guys are just plain wrestling, it IS all about the leverage.

[Loss]

They've also taken to calling every armbar a keylock.

[Loss]

Undertaker v Brock Lesnar - Hell in the Cell (WWE No Mercy 2002)

 

This, to me, was an excellent match, although it was more of a war than a match. This is as utterly violent as anything I've ever seen in WWE; in fact, it's probably the most physically violent match I've ever seen in WWE. Lesnar is just a machine here, dismantling Taker's hand with precision. The multiple chairshots on his hand are cringe-worthy, and there are some terrific spots. I also love the no-frills build. Lesnar and Taker do everything right to communicate hate; well, at least Lesnar does. I'll touch on Taker later. Brock was just about flawless, completely destroying Taker's hand and ripping off the cast, which gets a huge "Oh!" pop from the Little Rock crowd. The other "Oh!" pop comes when Taker starts bleeding. Aside from Eddy's bleeding in Eddy/JBL, this is the sickest bladejob I've seen in WWE. 'Taker is just a mess. The opening minute is really strong, with Taker elbowing the shit out of Lesnar's face and Brock catching him with a great powerslam early on, bringing the cool false finishes right out of the gate. When Taker doesn't back off, Brock tries to get out of the cage and realizes that he can't, so he gets desperate in quick fashion and goes to work on Taker's hand. Taker screams out in agony, which considering his usual no-selling act means a lot. It's the one advantage that him squashing people has; when he does sell for someone, they're automatically taken seriously. Brock doesn't back off and Taker keeps punching him away, and every time he does it, his hand gets weaker and weaker and his screams get louder and louder. Lesnar starts bleeding before long, and his bladejob is weak, especially by contrast to the gusher of his opponent. This was probably the first time he had ever bladed.

 

The match spills to the floor and Heyman tries to interfere through the holes in the cage, which results in Taker grabbing him by the tie and pulling him face first into the cage repeatedly. The crowd eats it up, and Paul E. motherfucking BLEEDS! I guess "He's hardcore! He's hardcore!" after all. Taker also gets in some other cool offense, including throwing Brock into the cage and clotheslining the fuck out of him. He uses the cage well also, dropping a leg from the top rope to the apron. Heyman, to elaborate more, takes his lumps here, and deserves credit for it. While Taker is pulling him into the cage repeatedly, Brock goes to break it up and goes crashing into both Heyman and the cage. Brock comes back quickly enough running Taker's back back and forth between the ringpost and the cage in an awesome spot.

 

There were a few things I didn't like. Taker going for a pinfall on the outside was one of them, because in WWE, fans associate falls outside the ring with comedy matches in the hardcore division, and this was not a hardcore match. It's also far out of the view of the fans in the building, so it's nearly impossible to get a pop off of a false finish. So, it was a wasted effort. I also thought that while Taker's selling was strong, his comebacks really weren't. His facial expressions were actually the weakest part of the match, because he looked exhausted, not really in pain. I also didn't like that so much of the match took place outside the ring in that one little corner, because it hurt the heat. Besides that, I can't say much horrible about it.

 

***3/4

[Guest Some Guy]

Re: Brock/Taker: HiaC:

 

I thought Taker's selling was inconsistant. His hand is broken (twice) so he gets a shot of pain killer. He then screams in agony as Brock destroys his hane. Later Taker decided that punchign with a broken hand and selling it when he feels like it would be a good idea, as well as using that same broken hand to stabilize himself on the cage as he does his rope walk and horrible looking elbow drop.

 

I enjoyed the match, but Taker brought it down. If they had his left hand be the one that was broken it would have worked so much better, as 75% of Taker's offense is punches with his right hand and without the punch as a crutch he doesn't know what to do.

 

Your star rating is probably about where I would put it, if I were to play around with snowflakes.

 

I have to watch Harley/Flair again to see if I can stand it this time. I was really bored by it the first couple of times I watched it. But, I didn't pay much attention either time.

[Loss]

Re: Brock/Taker: HiaC:

 

I thought Taker's selling was inconsistant.  His hand is broken (twice) so he gets a shot of pain killer.  He then screams in agony as Brock destroys his hane.  Later Taker decided that punchign with a broken hand and selling it when he feels like it would be a good idea, as well as using that same broken hand to stabilize himself on the cage as he does his rope walk and horrible looking elbow drop.

The elbow drop did look rusty, but Lesnar sold it well enough to cover it up, so I think the move was saved. Taker does use the hand, but every time he uses it, he screams out anyway. I do think Brock oversold Taker's punches with that hand, considering that it had been broken, twice, in the buildup and Lesnar had been working him over like a madman prior to that.

 

I enjoyed the match, but Taker brought it down.? If they had his left hand be the one that was broken it would have worked so much better, as 75% of Taker's offense is punches with his right hand and without the punch as a crutch he doesn't know what to do.

That much is true. That's probably the only reason I didn't go higher. I loved the level of sheer violence, and they definitely provided the aura the HIAC gimmick is supposed to have.

 

Your star rating is probably about where I would put it, if I were to play around with snowflakes.?

 

I have to watch Harley/Flair again to see if I can stand it this time.? I was really bored by it the first couple of times I watched it.? But, I didn't pay much attention either time.

Race/Flair is boring. It's also Ric Flair's coming out party. Without it, he wouldn't be quite the same guy.