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Loss

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Everything posted by Loss

  1. Loss
    Sorry, but this just isn't true. It isn't. Everyone here has watched hours of WWF and WCW footage from the era in which he was active and it's not true. He ALWAYS got the action over. Always. Even in 93 and 94, when Tony would start shilling for the main event on the 2nd match of the card, Ventura stayed focused on the action. He always got people over. Yes, he got himself over too, but that's because he had natural charisma and intelligence. I associate Ventura with RICK RUDE in the same way I associate Ross with Austin. Both in WWF and WCW, Ventura had a permanent hard on for Rude. Incidentally, the ONLY time I heard Ventura bury anyone was when fans were booing Erik Watts on one of the PPV shows in 92. It was during Superbrawl III actually and in my little review, I even took a transcript: Very funny. See, I guess I look at that example as Jesse Ventura going into business for himself. Erik Watts wasn't working to be booed. It's Jesse's job to try to change that (not for the live audience, of course), but stuff like this encourages it. Erik was a babyface. Things like that should get ignored. I want that to read clearly. I am not saying it was Jesse Ventura's fault that Erik Watts got booed. I am saying that when you have a babyface struggling to get over, pointing out the obvious is counterproductive to getting him over as a babyface. A good heel puts over his opponent in interviews instead of belittling him. Also unfunny and distracting during that time - constant "Texican" talk, discussion of Shane Douglas's politics, going on about Barry Windham's taped fist for months when it's not a storyline point the company is trying to get over and allowing side conversation like that to overtake calling the action in the ring. Announcers are not (well, should not be) characters. They exist to make the wrestlers look great. There's no reason for fans at home to notice how funny Jesse Ventura is, because getting over Jesse Ventura's humor does nothing to get over Sting, Rick Rude, Vader, Arn Anderson, Steve Austin, Brian Pillman, Paul E or anyone else you want to mention in WCW during that time. Ventura liked Rude, sure. He liked all the heels. Michael Hayes did too, but Hayes was better at making a point that happened to be funny that fit the storyline instead of making the humor of his lines a point in itself. It's why I prefer him.
  2. Loss
    I think that's a great question, and it's not one I wish to ignore. At the same time, it would be fun to debate the merits of a Finkel candidacy on the merits alone, without regards to Jimmy Lennon's inclusion. Let's discuss Finkel's candidacy on its own. I'm interested in that conversation because I have no idea where it would go.
  3. Loss
    He didn't define it, but I like Michael Hayes during the same time period much better.
  4. Loss
    Oh, and I do agree that Finkel should go in since there is a precedent. On the old school Raw last year, I remember thinking that him just announcing everyone made them seem more like stars than normal. I always meant to ask if I was the only one watched that show and thought that. But really, 80s WWF was all about two guys -- Vince and Hogan. Below that, you have Hogan's greatest rivals: Andre, Savage and Piper. (Andre accomplished enough before this to be a HOF pick and Piper did enough to at least be discussed in that category.) Everyone else was just a cog in the wheel. I give the Gene argument some consideration because he was the one put in the position to do interviews to get guys over, and had the control center which was given tons of TV time and was key in selling big shows.
  5. Loss
    Pretty easily Rey. With Tiger Mask, his shoot-style stuff should be included in the discussion to be fair, and it certainly bolsters his case, but Rey has been great for a very, very long time.
  6. Loss
    There is but he's the biggest problem with the product, but that's an issue of execution, not concept.. well and Vince being nuts. And regardless of that, it was a style that lasted twenty years, at least, through two booms. I don't think you can dismiss it so easily. It lasted, but how different would wrestling be without it? Because nothing matters in wrestling anymore, the last decade has been a good test of which institutions are critical and which ones aren't. A good lead announcer is critical. A color guy? More of a nice to have than a need to have. And while managers and valets aren't really a staple anymore, a good manager was able to get people over and draw money. If you look at the managers who are in the HOF, most of them had periods where they were successful in getting heat and drawing fans. If you look at the announcers in the Hall of Fame, guys like Jim Ross, Lance Russell and Gordon Solie are institutions who contributed greatly to the success of their company. Who did Jesse Ventura get over who would not have been over without Jesse's ability to sell them from the announce booth, the way Ross was associated with Austin, or Okerlund with Hogan and late 90s Flair, or Russell with Lawler, or Solie with everyone in Florida and Georgia? He could be very entertaining, but Jesse sold himself way more than he sold what was happening in the ring.
  7. Loss
    Is there a heel announcer in wrestling in 2012? That answers the question. Yes, he defined it, but it's a meaningless role.
  8. Loss
    Okerlund I think played a role in the success of the WWF in the 80s, because his interviews helped get wrestlers (and Gene himself) over. So I would listen to a case for him. The rest of them were just passengers during successful business periods, and weren't the reason the company was successful, so I'd say no -- easily -- to all of them. It speaks volumes to Jesse Ventura's ability to self-promote that anyone thinks he has anything resembling a HOF case.
  9. Loss
    Awesomely fun match. Total balls-out sprint with lots of great action that is designed more to get Taka over than be competitive, but it's a heck of a Taka showcase.
  10. Loss
    Putting this match on Nitro seemed like a huge waste of a PPV main event that could have drawn money, but I guess that's the story of Bischoff-era WCW. Hogan enters by coming through the crowd and wears a dumb mask. He gets booed LOUDLY, and the whole thing is a waste of time, because he doesn't even sneak attack him or anything. He just pats him on the back. Both guys try here, but a dream match like this needs a strong storyline to work, and the only person in the building siding with Hogan being Bischoff clouded things. I think they wanted a more divided crowd. Factoring all of that out (which is tough), Hogan does his usual nice arm takedown stuff he always does when he wants to wrestle, and I love him catching Sting in a bearhug off of the Stinger splash attempt. But then Hogan's Hulk Up just gets so much heel heat that I can't ignore it. The Dungeon of Doom run in for the DQ and attack both guys. The Giant comes down to double chokeslam Hogan and Sting but Savage stops him with a chair, then eats a chokeslam for his trouble before Hogan and Sting run him off.
  11. Loss
    Sullivan and Jimmy Hart pledge their support for Sting. This REALLY seemed to be building to a heel turn, but again, Sting was the popular one, so it wasn't going to work. But I'm sure the idea was being tossed around. I'd love to know for sure.
  12. Loss
    Yes. I'm not saying every single person who should be in is already in. I am saying that it seems like we've crossed a threshold of inducting obvious people, and now we're just arguing almost entirely about borderline candidates. When that happens, does it mean less to be in the HOF? Wrestling has happened less and the system has produced less stars in the last decade than in any other 10 year period ever. Hans Schmidt should probably be in. John Cena should probably be in. The Rock & Roll Express should probably be in. Jerry Jarrett should probably be in. I'm sure there are others as well. But we seem out of slam dunk picks after Cena goes in this year. If, from here, keeping the HOF open means someone is just going to get in every year, then I think the HOF will weaken over time and in a decade, we'll be inducting anyone who ever had a modicum of stardom. A HOF needs an industry that continues to churn out worthwhile candidates to stay relevant. That isn't happening. Therefore, the concept feels self-serving now. We induct people every year because someone has to go in, not because there are still dozens of worthwhile people to induct (without lowering the bar). While I don't think anyone is arguing candidates that they don't think deserve to go in, I do think most of the people being argued now would not be argued if the system were still producing stronger picks. It just seems like it's run its course.
  13. Loss
    On here for the HUGE angle, but Shawn/Owen was always good, and this is no exception to that. But there are so many touches that were handled so well. After Diesel does his promo earlier in the show, they show him leaving the building, to explain him not coming out to check on his friend. They also promised comments from Shawn after the match about his friend's change of heart, which obviously didn't happen. And the announcers leaving the booth was a nice touch too. Things like this has been done to death since then, but this was pretty fresh and awesome at the time. They show a concerned fan at ringside, who was also at ringside at Survivor Series as a big Diesel fan. Maybe elements of this have been done to death since, but the first time was great.
  14. Loss
    Famous promo, possibly the best Nash ever did. He delivers this really well, with lots of emotion, and looks like a badass. This was the beginning of him being used in a way where he was way more effective than as Smilin' Champ.
  15. Loss
    This still looks really good. There are other WWF matches I like better, but it's definitely in the top handful. More aggressive than most WWF matches, and Vince McMahon and Jim Ross are both great at getting this over on commentary. Tying Diesel up in the corner, the table spot ... all really well done stuff. It always felt like it was missing something, but I have never been able to put my finger on it. Still, I like it quite a bit.
  16. Loss
    It's worth a separate thread. From there, I can expand on my point that this is all useless. The WON HOF is becoming a self-serving concept. More people have to be inducted to keep it going, when almost everyone who deserves to be in is already in.
  17. Loss
    The first time they ever tried presenting Sunny as a sex object, as she has changed clothes and sits in Bill's lap.
  18. Loss
    Todd Pettengill interviews a fake Bill Clinton and Bob Backlund. One of those weird WWF things where they pretend he's the real Bill Clinton all night long and make themselves look stupid.
  19. Loss
    I don't have much to say about this match, but there's some fun action here. Everyone is working in overdrive, which I suspect was Vince telling everyone to step it up after being so upset with how the previous PPV went. I love the monster heel reaction Kid gets, and he's both positioned as and gets over as the star of the match. I guess they put this match on early so they could reinvent Sunny as a sex object later on the show. Razor watching on the monitor is ridiculous because his acting is so over the top, but that's the WWF way.
  20. Loss
    Talk about it here.
  21. Loss
    LOL at Cactus's airbrushed (with hearts!) Dungeon of Doom t-shirt, with Kamala, Zodiac and Shark on the front. Bigger LOL at the Eric Bischoff shirt under it! "Forgive me, Uncle Eric!" This is the height of fans bringing weapons, with shopping carts, golf clubs and cheese graters finding their way into this, and Dreamer even hitting Raven with a VCR! By pulling Bischoff's face on Cactus' t-shirt over Cactus's face, we're supposed to think Dreamer was hitting Eric Bischoff on behalf of ECW fans or something, which is just about the dumbest thing I've seen all year.
  22. Loss
    Steve Austin attacks Sandman on his way to the ring, taking Sandman out and putting himself into this match. More of an angle than a match, although they both work hard. Whipwreck gets the win at the end with a handful of tights. Pretty big upset, and maybe what Mikey is most remembered for.
  23. Loss
    Not a fan of death matches like this, because the increased number of falls makes no sense when matches without the stip take much longer to get a fall. It's just too convenient that the falls are coming so easily and frequently. Rey also botches an attempt to do some type of highspot on the guardrail. This is worked in a different style than your usual Rey/Psicosis match, and I will give credit to the ECW version of this feud for holding up better than I had remembered, as there is a progression between matches, and Gangstas Paradise is the only that is wrestled in the typical showcase style. This match has Rey doing quite a bit of prolonged selling where he's laid out for a long period of time. It's also funny when Psicosis gets over as a heel by declining to use a chair. This is more American style than any Rey/Psicosis match I can ever recall seeing, which will make some love it and others hate it. I don't have a problem with the layout -- more "hate", more attempting to get over Rey's guts by having him take a lot of punishment, etc. -- but these two using chairs and tables is beneath their talent and I wish they'd stay away from it, October match being a huge exception. I guess you could cut them some slack because they are in ECW and they're doing what they think will pop the fans, but it's just not the best version of this match, even though there are some positives.
  24. Loss
    Paul E. requests that the house lights be dimmed. When they come back up, Sabu is back in ECW, fresh off of being fired from WCW.
  25. Loss
    Dean demonstrates the Texas Cloverleaf. I like the idea of using things like this to do education on the holds, but I wish they could have found a way to present it that wasn't so nerdy.
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