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Everything posted by Loss
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He didn't so much eliminate everything as he did save it for special occasions. I mean, he and Jericho did have matches where they did dragon suplexes and tarantulas and all sorts of stuff no one else in the company was doing. His Jericho matches were understandably more suplex heavy than his matches with Rock, but he had great chemistry with both guys. There was probably less selling. But early 00s WWF was really sprint-style. I don't think that changed until after KOTR '01 when their roster was decimated by injuries and they started incrementally slowing things down. (It was more gradual than something you'd pick up immediately.) If there was more of anything, I'd probably say it was rope running. He probably took more bumps per match too. Again, WWF heels are expected to bump a lot.
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People tend to be unnecessarily hard on DDP. Yes, he was a limited wrestler who got a big push, but he got over. Lots of people have gotten big pushes that haven't gotten over. He was pushed in a way that played to his strengths, and as a result, he became a much needed top babyface on the WCW side through '97 and '98. I think there's this impression sometimes that this is somehow deceptive for some reason, when it's actually just good booking.
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- WCW
- Monday Nitro
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Did Benoit really changed his style that much in the WWF except slowing down like he did with DDP in WCW and doing shitty german suplexes ? Benoit very noticeably changed his style in the WWF. It was far more patterned. He didn't really slow down though. He did less, but the match pacing was faster. In fact, I'd say most of the guys near the top picked up the pace when he came in. But he eliminated a lot of stuff. And Jericho was good, but he was no Benoit.
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A fan sends in a European music video of Roddy Piper from 1992, which is TERRIBLE. This is supposed to make it clear that Piper wants Hogan, since there are Piper vs Hogan marquees mixed in the video, which I didn't think needed to be clarified. The video is like an extended Mentos commercial. The extended talking sequence at the end is borderline unbearable.
- 18 replies
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- WCW
- Monday Nitro
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[1996-11-11-WCW-Nitro] The Outsiders and Larry Zbyszko
Loss replied to Loss's topic in November 1996
NWO picketers come out of the entrance way, followed by Hall, Nash and Syxx. Hall says this Saturday, the NWO is taking over the Cable Ace Awards. Hall says he has been watching Larry since he was a kid, the start of another long angle. Hall also plugs the new NWO website. Nash tells Larry his shirt is nice and asks him if he got a cup of soup with that, which makes Tony legit start laughing on the air where he can't hide it. Nash says they aren't content with just having Saturdays. The NWO wants Nitro. Nash suggests Tony and Larry sell their houses and get double wides because they're about to be out of jobs.- 7 replies
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Gene Okerlund asks DDP if he's being courted by the NWO, as they keep helping him win matches. DDP says he stands on his own, but Hall and Nash interrupt and invite him to join the NWO. DDP is offended that they are asking him 8th instead of asking him much earlier. Nash says he obviously doesn't get it and the reason they didn't approach him sooner is because he lives two doors down from Eric Bischoff. DDP still thinks he was slighted and Hall and Nash tell him he still doesn't get it. The start of a star-making angle, one of the few they did when they should have done about a half-dozen more things like this.
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Highlights of an arena match. Christopher gets the pin and there's a great post-match brawl where the Dundees get involved and the numbers game catches up. Lawler is at the announce booth in full heel mode. With Lawler, Dundee and PG-13 all on the same side, they seemed heel heavy at this point.
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What was cool at the beginning of the year is getting old as a concept by this point. That said, these guys ate their Wheaties. Raven does good promo for once. Saturn actually does the best promo I've ever seen from him too. So does New Jack! And Brian Lee (who probably should have been a bigger star). Shane Douglas still takes forever to make his point, and says Tommy Dreamer's name about 600 times, but what else is new? The segment wraps up with Dreamer making a phone call to the Double Cross Ranch.
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- ECW
- November 5
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[1996-11-04-WWF-Raw] Steve Austin-Brian Pillman confrontation
Loss replied to Loss's topic in November 1996
So we all know about this. Kevin Kelly interviews Brian Pillman (with wife Melanie) at his house in Cincinnati. Vince interrupts to let them know that he has heard Austin is circling the neighborhood. Pillman does a great promo until he pulls out a gun. After commercial, Austin is beating up Pillman's friends, who are big guys, then tries to break into Pillman's house. Back in the house, Pillman has his gun cocked as Austin starts breaking a window and Melanie screams. Pillman holds up his gun and we lose signal. Lawler: "This is stupid." Amen. Kevin Kelly confirms that no one has been shot, then Austin shows back up as Pillman threatens to kill him. Well-executed or not, this was uncomfortable and went way too far. Yet another example of the WWF being aware that they needed to be more edgy, but not having the slightest clue about how to do it. Austin and Pillman were perfectly capable of building a hot program on their own. Was a gun really needed to build something with them? Between this and the fake Diesel and Razor, a real low period.- 12 replies
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Sid faces Marlena in the Karate Fighters tournament. Sid makes quick work of Marlena, and she promises him he'll never work in this town again, which made me laugh. Next week, Doc Hendrix vs Sable!
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Go out of your way to see this if you never have, as it's the Flair/Steamboat of CMLL. Amazing match. Lots of nice basic matwork with a solid build and some terrific two counts that feels like the pinnacle of this style of wrestling at this point in time. Tricked out matwork galore, most of which I don't even know how to describe, building to a nice series of highspots at the end. It's also really well-paced, not rushed at all, which makes the great exchanges really memorable, despite there being so many of them. My lucha MOTY unless something surpasses it later, and possibly a lucha MOTD contender too.
- 18 replies
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- CMLL
- October 15
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USWA tag champs Wolfie D and Brian Christopher have been having problems and Wolfie brings Brian out to apologize and says he has something for him but needs to go in the back and get it. He comes back and knocks him out with a chair and calls him garbage. He then brings out a bag full of garbage, takes every piece of garbage out and starts slapping him around with it. This is great, but of course it's Memphis and sometimes there are too many turns. Wolfie does a great job with this turn and even has the studio crowd chanting "Wolfie sucks", but it's hard to see the guy who was going to get my retroactive Best Babyface award for the year turn heel. But I shouldn't sell this short because it's really great. The Dundees come out to join him. PG-13 is reunited and now Dundee is with them too. Lots of potential for fun there.
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My current rankings with October added in. Two months to go! #1 - Megumi Kudo vs Combat Toyota (FMW 05/05/96) #2 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 07/09/96) #3 - El Hijo del Santo & Atlantis & El Dandy & Lizmark vs Blue Panther & Felino & Dr Wagner Jr & Negro Casas (CMLL 03/15/96) #4 - Shinjiro Otani vs El Samurai (NJPW 01/21/96) #5 - Wild Pegasus vs Black Tiger (NJPW 06/11/96) #6 - Volk Han vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (RINGS 08/24/96) #7 - Ultimo Dragon vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW J*Crown 08/05/96) #8 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 10/18/96) #9 - Shawn Michaels vs Mankind (WWF Mind Games 09/22/96) #10 - Gran Hamada & Super Delfin & Tiger Mask IV & Gran Naniwa & Masato Yakushiji vs Dick Togo & Mens Teoh & Shiryu & Taka Michinoku & Shoichi Funaki (Michinoku Pro 10/10/96) #11 - Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 09/05/96) #12 - Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue (AJPW 07/24/96) #13 - Aja Kong vs Kyoko Inoue (AJW 08/30/96) #14 - Rey Misterio Jr & Ultimo Dragon vs Heavy Metal & Psicosis (World Wrestling Peace Festival 06/01/96) #15 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 09/05/96) #16 - Dynamite Kansai & Kanako Motoya vs Mayumi Ozaki & Reiko Amano (JWP 06/16/96) #17 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW 06/07/96) #18 - Nobuhiko Takada vs Genichiro Tenryu (UWFI 09/11/96) #19 - Mayumi Ozaki vs Takako Inoue (JWP 05/18/96) #20 - Steve Williams vs Akira Taue (AJPW 04/20/96) #21 - Manami Toyota & Mima Shimoda vs Mariko Yoshida & Kaoru Ito (AJW 09/28/96) #22 - Yuki Ishikawa & Alexander Otsuka vs Daisuke Ikeda & Takeshi Ono (BattlARTS 10/30/96) #23 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 05/23/96) #24 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Yoji Anjo (WAR 07/21/96) #25 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Akira Taue (AJPW 03/31/96) #26 - Nobuhiko Takada & Masahito Kakihara vs Tatsumi Fujinami & Yoshiaki Fujiwara (UWFI 06/26/96) #27 - El Hijo del Santo & El Dandy & Dos Caras vs Blue Panther & Apolo Dantes & Emilio Charles Jr (CMLL 02/16/96) #28 - Volk Han vs Kiyoshi Tamura (RINGS 09/25/96) #29 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Johnny Ace & Gary Albright (AJPW 04/20/96) #30 - Keiji Muto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/05/96) #31 - Hayabusa & Masato Tanaka vs Terry Funk & Gladiator (FMW 09/24/96) #32 - Chris Benoit vs Dean Malenko (WCW Hog Wild 08/10/96) #33 - Masa Chono & Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs Kazuo Yamazaki & Takashi Iizuka (NJPW 09/23/96) #34 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Great Muta (WAR 10/11/96) #35 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 03/31/96) #36 - Great Sasuke & Tiger Mask IV & Shiryu vs Taka Michinoku & Super Delphin & Gran Naniwa (Michinoku Pro 03/16/96) #37 - Shinya Hashimoto vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 09/23/96) #38 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 05/24/96) #39 - Ultimo Dragon vs Great Sasuke (WAR 10/11/96) #40 - Dynamite Kansai & Takako Inoue vs Mayumi Ozaki & Kyoko Inoue (JWP 04/20/96) #41 - Rey Misterio Jr vs Dean Malenko (WCW Great American Bash 06/16/96) #42 - Ultimo Dragon vs Great Sasuke (NJPW J*Crown 08/05/96) #43 - Black Tiger & El Samurai & Gran Hamada vs Shinjiro Otani & Koji Kanemoto & Dean Malenko (NJPW 02/25/96) #44 - Rey Misterio Jr vs Juventud Guerrera (AAA 07/15/96) #45 - Billy Scott vs Kenichi Yammamoto (UWFI 10/23/96) #46 - Masato Tanaka vs W*ING Kanemura (FMW 08/01/96) #47 - Shane Douglas vs 2 Cold Scorpio (ECW Matter of Respect 05/11/96) #48 - Steven Regal vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 09/21/96) #49 - Yoshihisa Yamamoto vs Buzariashville Ramazi (RINGS 05/25/96) #50 - Devil Masami & Kyoko Inoue vs Dynamite Kansai & Aja Kong (JWP 10/13/96) #51 - Rey Misterio Jr vs Psicosis (WCW Bash at the Beach 07/07/96) #52 - Manami Toyota vs Sakie Hasegawa (AJW 03/20/96) #53 - Nobuhiko Takada vs Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW 03/01/96) #54 - Psicosis vs Ultraman (AAA 03/16/96) #55 - Jushin Liger, Gran Naniwa & Gran Hamada vs Dick Togo & Taka Michinoku & Shoichi Funaki (Michinoku Pro 08/18/96) #56 - Riki Choshu vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/02/96) #57 - Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels (WWF Wrestlemania XII 03/31/96) #58 - Masahito Kakihara vs Yoshihiro Takayama (UWFI 09/30/96) #59 - Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW 03/17/96) #60 - Vader, Owen Hart & Davey Boy Smith vs Shawn Michaels, Ahmed Johnson & Sid (WWF International Incident 07/21/96) #61 - Rey Misterio Jr vs Dean Malenko (WCW Monday Nitro 07/08/96) #62 - Shinya Hashimoto & Junji Hirata vs Kazuo Yamazaki & Takashi Iizuka (NJPW 06/12/96) #63 - Bas Rutten vs Masakatsu Funaki (Pancrase 09/07/96) #64 - Taka Michinoku vs Super Delphin (NJPW Skydiving J 06/17/96) #65 - Shiro Koshinaka vs Satoshi Kojima (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/06/96) #66 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW 05/24/96) #67 - Shinya Hashimoto & Junji Hirata vs Yoshihiro Takayama & Yoji Anjo (NJPW 02/25/96) #68 - Rey Misterio Jr vs Juventud Guerrera (AAA 03/16/96) #69 - Shawn Michaels vs Owen Hart (WWF In Your House VI 02/18/96) #70 - Vader vs Antonio Inoki (NJPW 01/04/96) #71 - Chris Jericho vs 2 Cold Scorpio (ECW Doctor Is In 08/03/96) #72 - Jushin Liger & Black Tiger vs Shinjiro Otani & Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 02/15/96) #73 - Shawn Michaels vs Diesel (WWF Good Friends Better Enemies 04/28/96) #74 - Masa Chono vs Keiji Muto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/06/96) #75 - Steven Regal vs Fit Finlay (WCW Uncensored 03/24/96) #76 - Rey Misterio Jr & Konnan vs Juventud Guerrera & Jerry Estrada (AAA 08/19/96) #77 - PG-13 vs Tracy Smothers & Jesse James Armstrong (USWA TV 02/17/96) #78 - Jushin Liger vs Dick Togo (NJPW Skydiving J 06/17/96) #79 - El Dandy & El Hijo del Santo & Silver King vs Negro Casas & Apolo Dantes & El Satanico (CMLL 02/10/96) #80 - Hayabusa & Masato Tanaka & Koji Nakagawa vs W*ING Kanemura & Mitsuhiro Matsunaga & Hidoh (FMW 01/10/96) #81 - Steve Austin vs Marc Mero (WWF King of the Ring 06/23/96) #82 - Shawn Michaels vs Owen Hart (WWF Monday Night RAW 08/12/96) #83 - Hulk Hogan & Scott Hall & Kevin Nash & NWO Sting vs Ric Flair & Arn Anderson & Lex Luger & Sting (WCW Fall Brawl 09/15/96) #84 - Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke (World Wrestling Peace Festival 06/01/96) #85 - Jerry Lawler vs Jeff Jarrett (USWA TV 04/20/96) #86 - Volk Han vs Masayuki Naruse (RINGS 10/25/96) #87 - Undertaker vs Mankind (WWF Summerslam 08/18/96) #88 - Great Sasuke & Tiger Mask IV & Hikari Fukuoka & Hiromi Yagi vs Super Delphin & Gran Naniwa & Candy Okutsu & Commando Bolshoi (JWP 10/13/96) #89 - Rey Misterio Jr vs Juventud Guerrera (ECW Big Ass Extreme Bash 03/09/96) #90 - Ric Flair vs Eddy Guerrero (WCW Monday Nitro 05/20/96) #91 - Cactus Jack vs Mikey Whipwreck (ECW Big Ass Extreme Bash 03/09/96) #92 - Rey Misterio Jr vs Psicosis (WAR 10/11/96) #93 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama & Satoru Asako vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa (AJPW 09/28/96) #94 - Sabu vs 2 Cold Scorpio (ECW 04/19/96) #95 - Mayumi Ozaki vs Dynamite Kansai (JWP 08/10/96) #96 - Jushin Liger & El Samurai vs Shinjiro Otani & Yuji Nagata (NJPW 10/25/96) #97 - Shawn Michaels vs Davey Boy Smith (WWF King of the Ring 06/23/96) #98 - Manami Toyota vs Yumiko Hotta (AJW 01/22/96) #99 - Black Tiger vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW 06/05/96) #100 - Manami Toyota vs Kyoko Inoue (AJW 03/31/96) #101 - Psicosis vs Ultraman (AAA 01/18/96) #102 - Sting, Lex Luger & Randy Savage vs Ric Flair, Chris Benoit & Steve McMichael (WCW Monday Nitro 07/29/96) #103 - 2 Cold Scorpio vs Sabu (ECW Cyberslam 02/17/96) #104 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Naoki Sano (UWFI 08/17/96) #105 - Rey Misterio Jr & Perro Aguayo vs La Parka & Ultimo Dragon vs Cibernetico & Pierroth Jr vs Heavy Metal & Psicosis (AAA 06/02/96) #106 - Jushin Liger vs Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 01/04/96) #107 - PG-13 vs Tracy Smothers & Jesse James Armstrong (USWA TV 01/20/96) #108 - Rey Misterio Jr vs Dean Malenko (WCW Halloween Havoc 10/27/96) #109 - Shawn Michaels vs Vader (WWF Summerslam 08/18/96) #110 - Manami Toyota & Mariko Yoshida & Kaoru Ito & Yumi Fukawa vs Takako Inoue & Kyoko Inoue & Chapparita Asari & Tomoko Watanabe (AJW 02/12/96) #111 - 1-2-3 Kid vs Hakushi (WWF Monday Night RAW 02/05/96) #112 - Dick Togo & Mens Teoh & Shiryu vs Great Sasuke & Gran Hamada & Masato Yakushiji (Michinoku Pro 10/19/96) #113 - El Dandy & Silver King & Lizmark vs Negro Casas & El Felino & El Satanico (CMLL 06/28/96) #114 - Steve Austin vs Hunter Hearst Helmsley (WWF Buried Alive 10/20/96) #115 - Jushin Liger vs El Samurai (NJPW 06/11/96) #116 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Tatsumi Fujinami (NJPW Battle Formation 04/29/96) #117 - Jushin Liger & El Samurai & Gran Hamada vs Shinjiro Otani & Koji Kanemoto & Taka Michinoku (NJPW 04/05/96) #118 - Undertaker vs Mankind (WWF Buried Alive 10/20/96) #119 - Shawn Michaels vs Marty Jannetty (WWF Monday Night RAW 07/01/96) #120 - Dean Malenko vs Steven Regal (WCW Monday Nitro 08/19/96) #121 - Steve Austin vs Savio Vega (WWF Beware of Dog 05/28/96) #122 - Rey Misterio Jr vs Juventud Guerrera (AAA 01/31/96) #123 - Wild Pegasus vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW 03/20/96) #124 - Chris Jericho vs Pit Bull #2 (ECW Hardcore Heaven 06/22/96) #125 - Shinya Hashimoto vs Kazuo Yamazaki (NJPW 01/04/96) #126 - Shawn Michaels vs Davey Boy Smith (WWF Beware of Dog 05/26/96) #127 - El Dandy & Atlantis & Hector Garza vs Apolo Dantes & Dr Wagner Jr & El Felino (CMLL June 1996) #128 - Ric Flair vs The Giant (WCW Monday Nitro 03/25/96) #129 - Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Dick Murdoch (PWFG 05/23/96) #130 - Keiji Muto & Rick Steiner vs Manabu Nakanishi & Satoshi Kojima (NJPW 10/25/96) #131 - Ric Flair vs Randy Savage (WCW SuperBrawl VI 02/11/96) #132 - Mitsuhiro Matsunaga & W*ING Kanemura & Hido vs Masato Tanaka & Ricky Fuji & Tetsuhiro Kuroda (FMW 02/23/96) #133 - Nobuhiko Takada vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW Battle Formation 04/29/96) #134 - Aja Kong vs Combat Toyota (FMW 01/10/96) #135 - Rob Van Dam vs Doug Furnas (ECW Natural Born Killaz 08/24/96) #136 - Shawn Michaels vs 1-2-3 Kid (WWF Monday Night RAW 03/04/96) #137 - Manami Toyota vs Aja Kong (AJW 10/06/96) #138 - Shawn Michaels vs Steve Austin (WWF Monday Night RAW 10/14/96) #139 - Steven Regal vs Fit Finlay (WCW Saturday Night 04/27/96) #140 - Shane Douglas vs Mikey Whipwreck (ECW 10/18/96) #141 - Atlantis & Lizmark & El Hijo del Santo vs El Felino & Bestia Salvaje & El Satanico (CMLL 40th Anniversary Show 04/19/96) #142 - Jushin Liger vs Black Tiger (NJPW 02/03/96) #143 - Shawn Michaels vs Hunter Hearst Helmsley (WWF Monday Night RAW 05/13/96) #144 - Road Warriors vs Rick & Scott Steiner (WCW Monday Nitro 03/11/96) #145 - Juventud Guerrera & Psicosis vs Volador & El Mexicano (AAA 01/12/96) #146 - Jushin Liger vs Dean Malenko (WCW Monday Nitro 05/06/96) #147 - Shawn Michaels vs Leif Cassidy (WWF Monday Night RAW 03/25/96) #148 - Dean Malenko vs Disco Inferno (WCW Bash at the Beach 07/07/96) #149 - Ric Flair vs Randy Savage (WCW Monday Nitro 02/19/96) #150 - Sting vs Scott Steiner (WCW Monday Nitro 05/27/96)
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Most of the BattlARTS is closer to the end of the year, but this is the first BattlARTS match of the year that's really stood out to me in a big way. Really aggressive match. All four mesh really well, and it's nice to finally watch in front of a crowd, to see this stuff with actual heat. The earlier match really felt like big fish small pond wrestling, in that it was wrestled with plenty of spectacle, but there was no audience really there to react and back it up. Now there is. There's also a lot of hate and fire, with guys from each team doing a lot of saves for their teammates. This is a match that really makes me appreciate pro wrestling, in the sense that there are so many ways to accomplish the same basic goal -- deliver a good simulated athletic contest that makes a crowd care. When you think you're pretty familiar with all the approaches to doing that, here comes yet another. This is different from UWFI or RINGS because the pro wrestling elements are more overstated, which is something I appreciate. I don't want to call it showy, because it's not like New Japan, but the personalities are definitely a big part of the appeal. Tempers flare. People make mistakes. It's not sloppy, but it's not annoyingly clean either. It feels spontaneous. Guys want to win and show each other up. So as much as I want to make fun of Takeshi Ono's hair, I can't, because the match is too good. This is more "Hmm, fun to discover this style" stuff than match commentary. But this really is a basic, common sense approach to wrestling under all the stiffness, hate and great matwork. And Otsuka does a fucking GIANT SWING in the middle of a RINGS-style mat exchange! This stuff really demands close attention because you're guaranteed to see something you don't expect at some point. I can't wait for the late 90s yearbooks to see this style continue to develop and peak. I've seen one-off matches before like the well-regarded Ikeda/Ishikawa match from '98. I really did enjoy it, but the match didn't feel like as much a commentary on the style as this does. Very hard-hitting. I wouldn't call this realistic, but great wrestling doesn't need to be realistic or believable. It just needs to be plausible within whatever universe it sets up for itself. And the great thing about this is that the style is broad enough that nothing really looks out of place. Great match! I don't know if it's an MOTYC and I'm not sure I really care. I just know I had tons of fun watching it. These guys can do everything.
- 11 replies
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- BattlARTS
- October 30
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Kurt Angle! He doesn't even look or sound like the same person. I should also mention that "War Machine" is the PERFECT wrestling theme song in every way. Taz cuts a really good promo hitting every point exactly the way it would make sense he should. I crack up at Styles explaining the rules of this match to Angle. Taz makes quick work of Guido in what is a really fun but short match, more for Guido -- who looks great -- than Taz. But Guido does an awesome job putting Taz over. After the match, Taz does another good promo as the keep building to the Sabu match. This is one of my favorite "presentations" ECW ever did because all the details were covered so well.
- 7 replies
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- ECW
- October 29
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There's nothing to say about Ralphus. This book is solely his WWE run from 1999-2005. He covers Ralphus in the first book.
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Fair enough. Honestly I don't know ROH's product so I'm not aware if this is all about stopfests or not. Just poiting out that Cornette was a fan of "workrate" matches even back then, as Flair was not exactly the greatest psych even at his peak and was more about go-go-go really. As far as big spots, well, yeah, although Flair for a 80's US wrestler had a pretty large moveset. No one is allowed to respond to this. No good can come of it. (I kid, I kid. Sort of.)
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Also worth mentioning: Bubba Ray Dudley was so badly concussed in TLC 4 that he forgot how to climb a ladder. Jericho is laid out selling giving instructions to him. He also kept asking if anyone saw his mom, saying they were supposed to see each other after the show. His mom had passed away years earlier.
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Laurinitis replaced Ross sometime in '04 or '05. There isn't much about him in the book, really, nor is there much about Ross. Jericho claimed Hughes was narcoleptic and would sometimes fall asleep at ringside. Russo had the idea to pair them and Jericho was less than enthused about it. Vince wouldn't let him call him "Curtis Huge", because he had dropped so much weight that he and Jericho were nearly the same size. Jericho hated that he wouldn't dress the part.
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Scripting was an issue, but more than that, they didn't like the way DDP bumped on his side instead of flat on his back. There is a HUGE emphasis in the WWE style on how heels bump. I think a heel that bumps well and at the time intervals they think a heel should will be seen as great even if they have absolutely nothing else going for them. Of course, within a few months of taking flat back bumps, DDP was done, despite being made of teflon for years. You're being overly dramatic, even if you do make good points: * Jericho was not "the star of the show" on Nitro. He was a midcard act that people on the Internet liked that showed enough personality that it was obvious he could go further with the right push. He also showed good instincts for getting a strong heel reaction and it was obvious he had a future. That's a compliment. But at no point was he the highest ratings draw or anything like that. If anything, during the time period Jericho was peaking in WCW, the stars of the show were Goldberg and Flair. * HHH's push was going to happen whether Jericho came in or not. He had a good rep and he was a homegrown creation who Vince liked. * Jericho ended up not getting a program with Rock because, by his own admission, he was missing little touches in the debut to get himself over. He made silly facial expressions which are fine for a midcard heel, but not for someone being portrayed as a threat to Rock. He played up the comedy too much and the aggression too little. These are all things that he himself will admit. * Jericho praises Bob Holly, because those matches are where his rep turned around, because Holly was one of the only guys who didn't care if he got stiffed, as he would just give it right back. By the time of the Benoit matches, things were much better for Jericho and he was generally considered to be on the right path. * "He doesn't know how to work" means different things to you and me than it does to WWE. Does everything look crisp and connect? Does the heat sustain? Does the guy's opponent look good in winning (or losing)? The focus is a lot less on variety of moves and fans popping for the entrance, and more on laying out the matches in a way that WWE thinks is logical and steadily builds heat. There's also a lot of focus on little things, like the proper way to do Irish whips (yes), which Pat Patterson actually taught him. The WWE style is less physical than some other styles, but it's probably more mental than some too. I know the counterpoint to this, and you could make a million comments about HHH's work not making him good by these standards. But these are all problems Jericho had coming in. * Angle was not put with Benoit and Jericho to teach them how to work. That's ridiculous. There's no way you believe that. * This stuff did not come from the "HHH camp" as much as it came from the "Vince camp". Jericho said most of Vince's complaints about his work were from Vince himself watching him from Gorilla. I am not saying HHH played no role in him getting to the next level. I am saying that ultimately, Vince was the one who kept him from getting to the next level. JDW: As he describes it in the book, the reason no one told Jericho is because he never asked anyone for help. This is part of the reason he got the rep he had, because when laying out matches with other wrestlers, he talked about how things were done in WCW, but never others for opinions or guidance on how things were done in WWE. Pat Patterson eventually explained the style to him and took him under his wing, critiquing his matches side-by-side, etc., but that was after he approached Patterson and asked him for help. He also asked HHH to shoot straight with him on why he had heat, and HHH was very blunt about why. There is a mindset in the company that you don't go to new guys and volunteer your help, but that they should be asking you. And with someone like Rock, he was homegrown and probably wouldn't get the challenges in shifting style the way others would. Austin probably had to make some minor adjustments to his ringwork too, but he didn't come in working primarily a Mexican/Japanese-influenced style. I'm not sure that there was anyone in the company -- aside from maybe Waltman who even this late was considered the guy that if you couldn't have a good match with him, you couldn't have a good one with anyone -- who would have understood that.
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[1996-03-31-WWF-Wrestlemania XII] Roddy Piper vs Goldust (Hollywood Backlot Brawl)
Loss replied to Loss's topic in March 1996
They said they didn't have any one-hip wrestlers on their pay-per-views. Piper responded that this was correct. No one hip is on their pay-per-views.- 18 replies
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Austin's reactions to Bret are a riot. This is a great segment, although Austin is light years ahead of Bret as a promo. Austin gets upset that they are winding down the segment and takes out his frustrations on a production assistant and starts smashing monitors.
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Aside from my War Games comment, I stand by the rest of what I said. The Hogan/Piper stuff is fun, but goes a little long.
- 12 replies
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- WCW
- Halloween Havoc
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[1996-10-27-WCW-Halloween Havoc] Scott Hall & Kevin Nash vs Harlem Heat
Loss replied to Loss's topic in October 1996
Hall and Nash working as babyfaces during the height of the NWO angle really sucks. Hall kissing Sherri and Nash stopping an interfering Col. Parker are total babyface spots. The crowd is still chanting "Diesel" and "Razor" in this match. This was really the beginning of a pretty terrible run for tag team wrestling in WCW, in spite of some occasional good matches. I see the logic in putting the belts on them to further the overall NWO angle, but it really did kill the tag titles meaning anything.- 6 replies
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- WCW
- Halloween Havoc
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[1996-10-27-WCW-Halloween Havoc] Rey Misterio Jr vs Dean Malenko
Loss replied to Loss's topic in October 1996
Interesting match. I'm not sure if I liked it or not, but it was definitely interesting, because Rey and Malenko are really making a conscious effort to do some of the gaga stuff and not just wrestle a match. But because they keep alternating between that and their normal stuff, the flow of the match kinda breaks apart at times. For example, making such a big production of Rey getting his mask back (which required Malenko to sell for way too long) didn't really deserve so much focus when it wasn't a really over part of the buildup. Malenko does look really good in this match and shows a lot more emotion than usual, and for whatever reason, Heenan decides to put Malenko over enormously in this match. Far more of the typical babyface/heel structure than many cruiser matches of the time. I don't like this as much as the Bash and Nitro matches, but I give them credit for trying to "Americanize" (for lack of a better term) their match. I wouldn't have minded seeing them continue in this direction for a while just to see what resulted from it. This could have potentially been failed proof of concept, and did have tons of heat, and at times, it was spectacular.- 9 replies
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- WCW
- Halloween Havoc
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(and 6 more)
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