Loss

I think the major problem with developmental is that the view of wrestling that the people running developmental have rarely matches the view that people like Stephanie McMahon and Johnny Ace have. The ones who suffer for it more than anyone are the wrestlers who end up caught in the middle.

Also, the big increase in house show attendance lately, with most other aspects of business staying the same or going down, is a good opportunity to change things. They don't even make money off of ad sales anymore. You obviously don't want TV ratings to be horrible, but they really don't matter at all. Strangely, most of the online talk is about last week's RAW drawing a such-and-such rating, and very little of it is about WWE drawing x number of fans to whatever arena, which is higher/lower than the last time they were in that market.

WWE is trying to run three wrestling promotions under their umbrella at this point. I'd say the need for more wrestlers is there, but they don't really develop their own talent quite like they should. There are bigger young guys working indies even now, but the problem is that they seem to have the reverse problem getting bookings on the more prominent indies if they're over six feet tall and 220 lbs.

Indies not using vets is indeed a major issue. Tracy Smothers, Tom Pritchard, Ricky Morton, Bill Dundee, etc should be working ROH.

Poffo was too much of a comedy guy to ever really go higher than he did. He was super talented, but I think he reached his potential. I like him right where they kept him, and if you listen to him talk nowadays, he has no delusions about his role in wrestling at all. The Hogan match from SNME will always be a favorite of mine, if only because Poffo's Valley girl selling of the Hulk Up -- covering his mouth and acting as if he's just heard that AC Slater and Jessie Spano were holding hands at The Max -- is pretty much the best thing ever. He was capable of doing so many things in the ring, but he built that match around the most flimsy and feminine offense possible to purposely make Hogan look like that much more of a monster. It was great! Really, it's just a statement on the talent pool getting really shallow in the past 10 years or so. So many of the underneath guys in years past were pretty great in their own right. It doesn't really mean they were destined for bigger things either. I compare a lot of them to actors who manage to make a decent living doing things like local theatre, commercials and PSA's, and are happy making a middle class salary doing something they enjoy doing. I think Bob Cook did an interview recently talking about this sort of thing.

Well, this definitely looks promising so far. Everyone will do their best to say something about everything they watch, right?

Although it rules when they do it for Lanny Poffo.

Patience, patience. We'll play this as we go. I'm still trying to figure out what would be best to put on the first disc, but I think I've got it. I just want to make sure it will all fit before saying what it is. I also like the element of surprise here and want to avoid pre-judging as much as possible, so I may not announce the match lists until I'm ready to ship them out. That will require a little faith in me to make wise choices, but hopefully that's not asking the world. Maybe we'll do something where a special request can be made for each disc. Steamboat/Youngblood against Slaughter/Kernodle seems to be something at least two of you are interested in seeing, so I think that's a good first request.

I would agree that the "diva is attractive" thing can sometimes be overblown.

Will do.

These are all valid points. I guess the big difference with wrestling is that it's actively a part of the attraction, while with other sports, it's just something peripheral that could happen. Part of the appeal of wrestling is its sleazyness. I don't know if you could say that about any sports. You definitely can't shield a child from everything you personally don't agree with, and I agree that just about anything has the potential to be seedy. I'd be lying if I pretended hip hop isn't sometimes degrading to women, but I'm not sure if Eazy E is only referring to women when he refers to bitches. A guy can be a bitch too, especially in hip hop's typical context. The words can mean more than just the words, and are sometimes a metaphor for a political statement also. If you hear your kid listening to music about bitches, you ask him who you think the lyricist is referring to, engage him in a conversation about it and make him think. Can you do that with wrestling? I also think it's easier for children to distinguish movies and music as performance than it is wrestling, because there are no booked angles designed to sell concert tickets in music. Thanks! I do want kids someday, and yes, it's good to think/talk about this sort of things. The main point I would make is that because there's no kayfabe in music or movies, it's easier for a child to distinguish them as performance instead of reality.

Possibly, but did they team? If not, then they have plenty of solo Eddy and Chavo Classic stuff to choose from. I'm sure they want matches with multiple family members involved. Just to follow up on this, I wasn't thinking about Mid South and how WWE doesn't own that library when I posted this. That's where most of the Guerreros teaming took place (1983-1985 had them pretty heavily featured, and Chavo was pushed as a singles babyface in 1986). As far as tag matches that took place in the WWE video library, most of them are probably in Florida, and I'm not sure how many of those there are. I know they worked there quite a bit in 1984 on and off Mid South runs. Hector has the Lazer Tron stuff Sek mentioned, and also had a brief WCW run in 1990 or 1991. He then came back and had a totally underrated comeback in 1996-1997 WCW. He had some TV matches against Benoit and Eddy that were very good. TomK recently mentioned a new Chavo/Fujinami match that surfaced that I'm curious about and want to see. Hector was still pretty good long after his prime. If they wanted to, the Guerreros could probably work the Rock & Roll Express on those NWA indy shows and get in the mix with the MX and Fantastics from time to time. I know I'd be very interested in seeing them against Morton and Gibson in 2007. In NWA Dallas 12 years ago, they were still really good, just a little slower. They may be a lot slower now still, but they sure do know how to work their spots.

For me, it has nothing to do with how they appear to others or being out of the in crowd. The kid will decide on his own if that's important to him or not. I just don't think a child's personal morality and world view should be influenced in any way by WWE television. If the kid can distinguish and understand that it's just fantasy, it's cool, and they can probably watch all they want without getting warped. If you have an impressionable kid who has a habit of imitating what they see on TV, that's when I'd be a little concerned as a parent. Sek mentioned 30 year olds waving foam fingers, which is another issue entirely that would be interesting and fun to discuss, but we could talk about that forever. There are things a parent can do if they realizing they're raising a manchild.

Okay, so we've talked about doing Best Match Ever polls and that sort of thing here in the past, and it's fallen by the wayside because it's such a massive undertaking and doing it properly is nearly impossible. It would also take years. So I want to propose something a little more simple: The Pro Wrestling Only DVD Club The way it would work is that for maybe $5.00 a month (or thereabouts), you'd receive a 4-hour DVD every month of various matches, big angles, memorable interviews, etc from random time periods and promotions that I'd put together. I'm in the process of condensing my DVD collection in preparation for buying a home and I'm coming across a lot of great stuff that I do think a lot of people would enjoy if they saw it. The incentive for me is that it would hopefully increase activity here at the board, and also that it's fun to talk about this stuff sometimes. It would start probably around mid-July. The next two months or so are going to be incredibly hectic for me. I close on my new house in two weeks and then will be doing home improvement stuff that will be taking a lot of my time. Once I'm moved in and unpacked, I will have the time to devote to this. If you think this is a good idea and something you'd participate in regularly, please post in this thread. Even if to start there are only 3 or 4 people who are really into the idea, that's 3 or 4 people saying something fairly regularly about what they're watching, which is a good start and may motivate other people to get involved. I'm not motivated by profiting off of this at all, so if I did this for 2-3 months and no one posted anything about what they were watching, I'd probably drop the idea. The whole point is to get some good activity going here, and to make it accessible for as many people as possible. Also: talking MOTYCs for various years is something I enjoy, but there's a lot more to wrestling than that. So this isn't going to be an obscure compilation you receive every month of random Toshiaki Kawada matches (although there will be some). It will feature some matches that are interesting for historical reasons or for other reasons than that they're necessarily among the best ever. The whole point is variety and exposure to as many styles and eras as possible for people who may aren't familiar with the stuff. Think combination of nostalgia, great stuff that holds up and good trivia. I'll probably shy away from doing a lot of really modern stuff (2000-present) because most people who are interested pick it all up anyway, but there will definitely be exceptions to that from time to time.

My issue is more with kids learning that the best way to resolve conflict is through violence, or that it's cool to swear at people and cut promos on your teacher, or that being jacked up on steroids and/or having ridiculous breast implants is the ideal male/female body image, or that jokes centered around racism, misogny and homophobia are cool, or that making jokes about people's recently deceased family members is somehow acceptable. Wrestling has never been wholesome, but it was a lot more harmless in days past than it is now. I wouldn't forbid a child to watch wrestling, as that would only serve to make it more desirable. If I had a kid that wanted to be a wrestler, I'd support it. If I had a kid that loved watching wrestling, I'd take the kid to matches and probably have a good time myself. I'm just saying as a parent, I'd have to spend a lot more time explaining these things than I would if my kid(s) found a different hobby, like music or magic or sports. There's also the concern of having people chant obscenities at your kid if you go to an indy show where the above-mentioned problems aren't as prevalent. If there was a safe haven *somewhere*, it wouldn't be as big a deal.

I think it's a matter of safety. You have to make sure your kids understand that wrestling, cartoons, etc are fake so they aren't imitating dangerous moves on their friends. Sad but true. When I have children, I honestly hope they hate wrestling.

I really want to get the full lot of '89 Observers and the Yearbook at some point in the near future. That always felt to me like it was the time Dave had more fun covering wrestling than any other time period, because he loved the Flair stuff that year so much, and there was a near-constant stream of Turner politics that year.

Chavo and Hector probably teamed together more than they wrestled singles in the US.

Chavo and Hector probably worked more in the US than they did in Mexico, no?

Sure they did. Anyway, I don't want to take away from the Brody debate, but I think if we're going to debate his drawing power, we should at least bring some attendance figures into it or probably just not do it.

People say it all the time to a point where it's become a bit cliche, but Flair and Funk were both truly just themselves with the volume turned up a little. I think that's why both guys had such great careers and people responded to them the way they did. Even when they were way over the top, they were believable.

Good topic. I wish I was able to get 24/7 on DirecTV so I could contribute. I'll just comment that Ron Garvin is a guy whose stock has really gone up in my eyes the past few years. Really unique, and really capable of bringing the best out of people, and often times a side of them you didn't often see. I can't wait until they get to December on 24/7, so everyone can see the long Flair match and be blown away by it. People talk about Valentine/Garvin from MSG in 9/89 as pre-BattlARTS, which I can see, but this match I think is even more in that direction.

Ric Flair v Ricky Morton - NWA 07/05/86 Great American Bash Tour Ric Flair has taken somewhat of a beating the past few years from the hardcores. One could argue that some of it has been deserved and some of it has not. For years, he was regarded as the Greatest Wrestler Of All Time. He was the wrestler nearly everyone in the business talked about on WWE DVD releases and in radio interviews and in newsletters as the guy they had their best matches against and had tons of respect for. He was the consummate champion. He was the greatest world champion ever in fact. He worked the most grueling schedule ever, had the most great matches ever, was the best interview ever, was the most charismatic wrestler ever ... you could basically apply any superlative to Ric Flair and his reputation among people who really followed wrestling closely and had over a period of time. Watch his classics with Ricky Steamboat and Terry Funk, they'd say, to see wrestling at its best. Ricky Morton has also taken somewhat of a beating the past few years from the hardcores. One could argue that some of it has been deserved and some of it has not. For years, he was regarded as the original face in peril, perhaps the Greatest Tag Team Wrestler Of All Time. He was the wrestler nearly everyone in the business talked about as the best babyface they'd ever seen and he had tons of respect in most circles. He was talked as the guy that was the most sympathetic face ever who proved that small guys could get over in territories that only accepted big guys on top. Watch his classics with the Midnight Express, they'd say, to see tag team wrestling as its best. Somewhere along the way things changed. Flair fans found Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin, Jumbo Tsuruta, Kenta Kobashi, Jushin Liger, Chris Benoit, Eddy Guerrero, Toshiaki Kawada, El Hijo del Santo and Mitsuharu Misawa and Flair wasn't as impressive anymore. He was overly reliant on a formula. He didn't have the range of offense of Kobashi. He didn't work his signature spots into the match as logically as Bret. He didn't age as gracefully or adapt to new opponents as well as Jumbo. Morton fans found Tommy Rogers and Tsuyoshi Kikuchi. They sold extremely well too, and they had cooler looking moves. Besides, small samplings circulating showed that Ricky Morton didn't even play face in peril in most of his matches. It was a myth, and it was usually Robert Gibson taking the beating. The first problem with overwhelming praise is that it can be nauseating, and it sometimes begs criticism. Flair's untouchable matches with Steamboat suddenly start getting touched on quite a bit. The Wrestle War '89 match with Steamboat was so boring and seemed detached from the storyline. It wasn't anything spectacular. And people talk about it as the Greatest Match Of All Time? People are underwhelmed, think the match is the best thing American wrestling has to offer, and start seeking out matches from Japan and Mexico that they hope will prove a little more exciting. Most of the time, they fulfill the prophecy they set for themselves. There's a depressing number of wrestlng fans on the Internet that have seen almost every Dragon Gate show ever and watch BJPW non-stop that haven't seen or cared to see so much great stuff. They haven't seen Jerry Lawler get pushed off of a staircase by Bill Dundee, or Magnum TA drive a spike in Tully Blanchard's eye. They haven't seen Terry Gordy slam Kerry Von Erich's head with a cage door, or Ted DiBiase and Jim Duggan wrestling each other in tuxedos. Granted, there's far more to wrestling than the best American stuff, and I'd be hypocritical to not say otherwise, but this stuff is out there, and because of the gross overpimping of the wrong matches in many cases, it's caused people to be hesitant to go more in depth the way they would with maybe old All Japan or New Japan matches. The second problem with overwhelming praise is that people tend to praise the wrong matches. The Flair/Steamboat matches are awesome, don't get me wrong, but for someone trying to find wrestling they really enjoy who's still discovering new styles, it's not the most daring recommendation one could make. There's a time for watching epics. I like epic matches. I think every wrestling fan likes epic matches. I think we would all get bored if all matches attempted to be epics. I'd argue that's a bit of a problem with some wrestling promotions today, but that's another argument for another time. There's really no reason for anyone to see Flair/Steamboat from Wrestle War '89 if they haven't seen the video set to Europe's "The Final Countdown" (yes, it's that Bryan Danielson theme song). There's really no reason for anyone to see a Ric Flair/Terry Funk match if they haven't seen Flair swing a branding iron, or Funk suffocate Flair with a plastic bag and bring out a jobber dressed like him in a cheap robe with a yellow stripe down his back. If you don't feel it and see it, these matches will be a bit hollow, which should go without saying, but based on the length of time I'm taking just to set up this review, doesn't. This match and the Windham match from Worldwide that was on the Flair set are probably the two matches I'm most proud of WWE for releasing on DVD. It shows that there is more than Flair/Steamboat and Flair/Funk, that there were great matches and that it is worth digging a little deeper to find them. I'd go as far to say that Flair looks as good as or better than I've ever seen him here. This is a world title match that is about revenge, as opposed to being a stoic encounter between two respected legends. Ric Flair rubbed Ricky Morton's face into a concrete floor until blood was smearing all over the floor, and he broke his nose. Morton was wearing a face guard here. He came in full of piss and vinegar and tried to give Flair a dose of his own medicine. He tried to break Flair's nose and smear his face on the mat. He leveled him with some tremendous punches. He had Flair begging off. Yes, Ricky Morton came into the match so angry and possessed that he managed to scare Ric Flair. Flair begs off a lot, because he always tries to bring his opponent to his level. Sadly, sometimes instead of his opponent coming up a notch, he falls down a notch. That didn't happen with Morton. When he begged off, it felt more organic because it was believable. He wasn't working with a Sting or Luger that he had to get over before they could even really take the match anywhere, because Morton was capable of making his own way. When Flair takes control of the match, we see him at probably his most brash and violent ever. He's talking trash constantly, rubbing Morton's face into the cage in front of the probably-PWI cameras, screaming "So you wanna be the world champ?" at him and ripping off his face gear and throwing it out of the cage so Morton can't even put it back on. He then starts punching him as hard as he can in the nose, and the crowd winces, because they feel Morton's pain. He convincingly beats the shit out of him for a long time without giving Morton any openings at all. Morton finally has enough and tears into Flair yet again. Flair is now scared yet again, and is now getting exactly what he deserves. He's now bleeding just like Morton and he's now on the defensive. And with a flying bodypress from the top rope, Morton comes about a half a second away from winning the world title, and the fans appeared to be convinced. Again, Morton tries covering Flair, but this time, Morton ends up falling on the ref. This gives Flair a chance to crotch him on the top rope and pin him with his feet on the ropes to escape by the skin of his teeth with the world title. I hope everyone watches and loves this match. And I hope it makes everyone re-think Ric Flair, Ricky Morton and American wrestling. Ric Flair was rarely about somber gatherings, clean wrestling matches and handshakes. Flair was about enraging fans who were dying to see someone take him down a notch, because he wasn't modest and always found a way to hold on to the belt, which is what allowed him to keep bragging and keep showing off. Rogers and Kikuchi are awesome, but Morton is almost in a class by himself. He's a 180 lb guy who drew money challenging for the world title. There aren't a lot of wrestlers that size who have pulled that off. Here, he shows that not only can he sell, but he can dish out a beating as well. The Windham match at Battle of the Belts earlier in the year? You know the one, chances are you've at least seen it recommended even if you haven't watched it. Watch it. Definitely. But watch this first. Not only is it more accessible, but I actually think it's much better.

I can't vouch for this since I don't have the WON, but apparently, there are plans to try to make the women less slutty and more classy, and the women will now be wearing less revealing clothing. They are currently working with an image consultant who is giving them advice on how to present themselves on camera. Vince also wants to make WWE much more basic and wrestling-oriented, and thinks the way they can attract high-dollar advertisers at this point is to try to clean up their image. This would explain some of the things we've seen on TV lately, but I can't say I'm still not surprised. I'm just skeptical that this new approach is going to last very long.

This is still in progress. Will add what was mentioned to the list of stuff I'm needing to seek out.