Torch Talk with Kevin Nash, pt. 2
Originally Published: April 16, 2005
Torch Newsletter #857
Kevin Nash, one of the biggest names of the Monday Night War era whose jump with Scott Hall from the WWF to WCW helped shift the balance of power in the wrestling industry, is now a headliner with TNA. In this, the second installment of a six-hour "Torch Talk" conducted on March 24, Nash talks about his early years in wrestling, his early influences including Jody Hamilton and Rick Rude, his first impressions of WCW, a story about Dusty Rhodes presenting him with the Oz gimmick, and the Vinnie Vegas character that first got him noticed. As this "Torch Talk" progresses, he marches through in great detail his entire career including his jump to the WWF, his jump to WCW, the success of the NWO, the downfall of WCW, his role in that downfall, the drug culture that permiated WCW during its peak years, his ill-fated return to WWE, his philosophy on pro wrestling, his thoughts on the Bret Hart Survivor Series Swerve, and much more.
Wade Keller: How did you go about being trained to be a professional wrestler?
Kevin Nash: I checked around and people told me that Jody Hamilton had a school and I went down and the first night I went there for a tryout. They did the old school deal where you pay 1,500 bucks for a tryout. They make you do a thousand Hindus, a thousand step-ups, a thousand push-ups, run the ropes for a week and a half, and have a couple of guys stretch you, and make you go home and take your 1,500 bucks. When it came time for the stretching part, I had made it through everything. With bad knees and all, I did a thousand Hindus, I did my step ups, I did my push-ups. It got to the point where it was time to get stretched. They had a little shooter pulling on me. I got my left hand loose and hit him about three times in the face because I figured if we're shootin', we're shootin'. I got a hand loose and busted the guy open. The guy rolled out and said, "F--- this." They said, "Okay, we'll see you on Monday." Jody said to me, "You got heart, kid." I went to school the next Monday. When everyone else was doing Hindus, I started doing them. He pulled me aside and started talking about psychology immediately. Jody pulled me aside. Everybody who goes to wrestling school gets smartened up about eight months in. I got smartened up the first day in. He told me about the Kentuckians and the heat they had. He laid it out, how they got the heat. He basically gave me a psychology-work ethic backwards, which is probably my downfall in life (laughs) because my psychology is way better than my work. But basically, the thing was, he'd always say, Ox Baker could talk a house in from a million miles away and people would pay 20 bucks to get the f--- out. He could talk the talk, he couldn't walk the walk. But Jody was a great teacher. The thing was, man, Jody was huge. He was way over 300 pounds. He'd get in that ring and start moving around. I had nothing but respect for him because he was probably in his mid-50s when he trained me and he could still motor in that ring, he could still throw a hell of a working punch. It wasn't do as I say, not as I do. Dwayne Bruce was there, and Dwayne was a solid worker. Sarge (Dwayne Bruce) was a solid worker, but he was never big enough. So Dwayne was the guy I worked with on a day-to-day basis. I think that was good too because I learned the lay the sh-- in. Coming out of the chute, if you're sh--'s f--in' weak, you're sh--'s weak. You're better off being a cement mixer and nobody wants to work with you than come out and look like a f---in' c--t. So that was Jody's philosophy. And Dwayne f---in' laid his sh-- in and we worked snug down there. There were a lot of nights that you got a sh-- knocked out of you. He lays clotheslined in. I'd get up at 8 o'clock, go to the gym, I'd work a ten hour shift at the strip joint because I switched to day shift, and come 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock at night, I'd drive 20 miles down to Lovejoy, Georgia to a little hut that was half a wrestling school, and the other half sold carpet remnants. No air conditioning, no heat, and for nine months I went down there five nights a week and bounced around.
Keller: What preconceptions did you have about what it would take and what were you surprised when you started going through the process?
Kevin Nash as Oz (photo by Wade Keller, PWTorch)
Nash: Because it's a work, it's not like - I try telling people who ask what makes pro wrestling so tough that it's the hardest thing I've ever done. In baseball you either hit a ball or don't hit a ball. In basketball you either hit the shot or you don't hit the shot. This is a situation where you tell Barry Bonds, "Okay, you have to knock the ball out of the park, but you can't actually touch the ball." You have convince me that you're killing each other, but because especially when I broke in you worked 300 days a year, you have to look like you're killing the guy on every move you do, night in and night out, except you can't touch the guy because you have to work 23 straight days. Man, it's one of those deals where either the light bulbs comes on in this business or it doesn't. My first match was live in Asheville, N.C. at the Clash of Champions. My partner jumped off the top rope and missed a headbutt by four feet. I heard us lose the people (laughs). It didn't take Harley Race to go, "Brother, you lost the people." I knew right then we lost them. And they'd start chanting "LOD wanna bes" and I said, "We're f---ed. We're dead. This is a dead gimmick." It's like Oz. When I walked in to St. Petersburg that day and they handed me the Oz gimmick, I said to myself, "All right, they're running me out of the business, but that's okay because I've got a guaranteed deal. F--- it. I'll do what I can with it."
Keller: How did the Oz gimmick come about? Did you have any input on it?
Nash: Nothing. I walked into Dusty's office. This was a conversation I've said a million times, but it's classic if you know Dusty. He said, (imitating Dusty), "You will be Oz, baby." I said, "What do you mean I'm going to be Oz." He said, "You know, like the Wizard of Oz." I said, "Well, Dusty, Oz is a geographical region." He said (enthusiastically), "No, you're the guy behind the curtain!" I said, "No, he's the Wizard of Oz. He's actually the Wizard. Oz is a geographical region, the place where they go to." He goes, "No, you Oz!" I went, "All right." So basically, I'm f---ed. (laughs)
Keller: When you started with WCW, and it was Jim Herd (as executive vice president) and Ole Anderson (as booker) basically in charge, you didn't have anything to compare it to, but what did you think? First class operation?
Nash: When I first got to WCW, it was like a bad blow job. I knew coming in. I didn't really anything out of it until they brought (Rick) Rude in. When they brought Rude in, for some reason Rude and I gravitated toward each other. It was one of those deals where Rude watched me in Centre Stage have a match and got to know me backstage and said I had that Robinsdale attitude. He saw that I didn't take no sh--. So Rude that night said to me, "Where do you live, Nash?" I said, "I live here in Atlanta." He told me he would come pick me up. He came and picked me up in his Mercedes and we partied a little bit on the way. He smartened me up to the business. He said, "I'm going to watch every match you do and I'm going to help you. You're going to be my protege. All I ask you to do is drive me home every night. I'll drive to the town, you just have to drive me home." I said, "It's a deal." That was the deal. He would watch my matches. I remember the first night, that night in Augusta, he sat back there and they put Madusa with him as his valet. He was standing there in the red robe with the curly mullet. He was walking back and forth with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth with a two inch ash. He was walking back and forth blowing smoke out of his nose. He takes a big drag and they're playing his music. He drops his cigarette, puts it out with his boot, and walks through the curtain. He stands there when the spotlight's on him and blows the smoke through his nose like a dragon, walks to the ring, and I went, "F--in' is he the man or what?" Rude went out there and he did great spots where he'd stop and make the babyface do a comedy spot. Then he'd stop him, snag on his back, and turn the people completely the opposite way where suddenly this is the realist thing I've ever seen. They'd be, "F--- you, Rick Rude!" And f--in' Rude would do those crazy great ass bumps, give the best f---in' feed of a heel probably ever in the business besides Triple H, and whatever the finish was. I watched it, and I saw that formula night in and night out. At that point WCW wasn't entertaining. Rude was the first guy who got it, that it was sports entertainment, you had to entertain the people. It's not armdrag, armdrag, dropdown, get it again dawg. It ain't that. It's f---in' entertainment. He was the first one who changed the profile or the personality of WCW. I think people emulated him. Shortly after Jake (Roberts) came in, and those two guys basically changed things.
I remember one night in Tallahassee, Jake had Nikita (Koloff) slam him like twenty times in a row. Nikita was so blown up. Nikita wasn't selling for anybody those days, and Jake was so smart, he told him to slam him again and again and again and again. He'd ask him how blown up he was, then told him, "Now sell my sh--y jabs! You're mine, bitch." (laughs) I watched that and learned from Jake and Rude that you have to control that environment. As soon as you do that, there's no nerves, you never blow up. People ask, "Aren't you worried about blowing up, you haven't worked in six month?" You can't blow me up. I work too f--in' slow. I don't work your pace. I can't work your pace, you work mine. I remember I was in the business three or four years. I was working with Scorpio. We had a match that was kinda the sh--s and he said, "Dude, you gotta pick it up." I said, "You don't understand, man, I'm all f---in' beat up. I said, "I can't work your speed, you have to work mine. You have no choice." The only time I've ever had great matches is when guys that I worked with can create movement. Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Triple H, and I thought I had a really good match with Jeff (Jarrett) the other week. Jeff can create movement. I could f---in' have a great match with Sean Waltman. Anybody who can create movement and the illusion that I'm moving besides swinging, ducking, dropping you over me - as long as there's an illusion there. I knew that from day one. Scott Hall could do that. Scott is probably the greatest big-man worker ever in the business, to me. I've watched (Bruiser) Brody tapes, I've watched (Stan) Hansen tapes. I've watched every f---in' match those guys have had. They weren't at Scott's caliber. They couldn't have had that ladder match. Nobody six-foot-six, 275 can work like Scott Hall.
I have some pictures here. I live by myself on the beach. I have very few photos of the boys, but I have a black and white photo somebody took of the first night Scott and I and (Eric) Bischoff were together, June of 1996. I've got a picture of me, Shawn (Michaels), and Triple H at his wedding. I've got a picture of me and Triple H from his wedding. And then I've got a picture from Berlin of the Clique. And that's basically all the wrestling photos I have. Oh, I've got a picture of me and (Steve) Austin, too, because Steve's a real close friend of mine. That's about all I?ve got. I look back at my career, there's a lot of guys I've respected, a lot of guys that I pay homage to, but it's always been the Clique, Steve Austin, and Take (Undertaker). I've always had a real closeness with Take. I had a real good relationship with those Natural Born Thrillas guys, like (Mark) Jindrak and guys like that. It was kind of fun to give them the Rude treatment, kind of teach them how the business runs.
Kevin Nash as Oz (photo by Wade Keller, Torch editor)
Keller: When you first got to WCW, did you have to pay dues? Did you have to go through any kind of initiation?
Nash: You know what, it was one of those deals, I think because of what I was, I was a pretty well-known bouncer. There were a lot of fights and the guys at clubs would pay me a couple hundred bucks to break up fights. I was pretty heavy-handed and back then you could beat the f--- out of people. Growing up in Detroit, I've been fighting since I was six years old. I'm not afraid to fight. To this day, I'll fight tomorrow, I'll fight anybody. I don't give a sh--. Worst case scenario in a fight is they can kill you. The second-worst scenario is they can beat your ass. The third-worst scenario is you can beat the f--- out of them and they can press charges. I was a big f---in' guy and I've always had a good sense of humor, I've always been kind of the locker room comedian. At the same time, if you f-- with me, I don't give a f--- if you're the World Champion, I'll punch you in the face. I'll take you into the f---in' showers and I'll wait until you soap your head up and you're bent over and I'll punch you in the side of the head. There's a respect to being six-ten and 340 and then guys go to the gym and watch you incline 405 for twelve reps and they go, "F---, you're a big, strong motherf--- who moves pretty good." My deal was anytime I got into a fight with a normal human being, I'd ask, "When's the last time you fought a six-ten, 320 pound guy who was in shape and knows how to fight? Ever! Go ahead and think about it because let me tell you something, when you say f---in' stop, I ain't stoppin'. I'm not that f---in' guy. I'm the guy that will kick you until I break my shins, until you get underneath a f---in' engine block. I'm that guy. I think that translates. I think when you're a f---in' heel and you work with people, you have that prick gear. Scott Hall had the gear. Shawn Michaels had the gear. You have to have the ability to change gears when you actually get heat on somebody. I think Disco Inferno is a great worker, but he never had the ability to shift gears. He never had the ability to make people think he was a nasty mother f---er. And Glenn could do everything else. You could beat Glenn every night of the week and he'd stay over, he just can't turn gears. That's one of my things that I want to do. Everything can be taught in life. The saying is you can't teach a new dog old tricks. That's bullsh--. You have to have the patience to teach that dog the trick. Anything can be taught in life. You can take an 85 year old woman and teach her Latin if she wants to learn it. To me, you have to have a certain prick element to get over in this business. People would always say to me, "Scott Levy, Raven, I don't like him." I said, "That's why it works, that's why he has heat. Because he's not real likable." I love him. I love him. I think the fact that they've bastardized his character in the last couple of months has drove me crazy. He is one of the few. He's iconic to a different degree than most of the people are. Okay, if I took over the book over next week, next pay-per-view it's a hardcore match, Dustin (Rhodes) vs. Raven, best of luck. Raven splits you f--in' open and beats you to death with a trash can lid. That's what that angle needs. Raven is a guy who was with me back in the day. We went up and down the road together. He loves the business. There's few guys who love it as much as Scotty does. To me, it's one of those deals where you look at it and say, "Scotty, I've been to Mount Olympus and you stood next to me; you were there. You didn't have to be there, you didn't have to have a belt on you. When I look at our era of guys, you're there."
Keller: He calls himself the last of the true territory guys.
Nash: And he was. I watched ECW because of him. To me, people can say what they want to about ECW, but there were never greater finishes than on their TV. I mean, they were so multi-layered, they were like the Japan finishes, but with an American twist. They were great. I'd love it because a guy would get chopped like with a 25-automatic, hit with a dinosaur, kick out, kick out, caught on fire, kick out, and then schoolboy, 1-2-3. It was classic. You'd be at home going, "Ohh, that ain't it! Ohh, that ain't it!? What? That's it? Schoolboy? F--, you got me!" You can say what you want to about Paul E., but his sh-- was as innovative and as important to that genesis as the NWO and Austin and McMahon was. Those were the three synergies that kind of pushed the platelets together and formed this giant volcano that became pro wrestling and then basically exploded in '99 and died. All those factors were huge in doing so.
Keller: People first started noticing you when you were doing the radio show in Atlanta with Jim Ross as Vinnie Vegas. That was your chance to kind of show your personality and wit because Oz didn't do it, Master Blaster didn't do it. Did you know that you were onto something then or were you just having fun?
Nash: Jim would have me on and the thing was, I've been able to get ass just by making girls laugh. I mean, that was always my thing, wow, the big funny guy. That was kind of my deal. I've been the class clown since I was six years old. My son comes home and says he got in trouble. He had the whole class laughing and he's crackin' jokes, and I'm like, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. My son's comedic timing is great. There are times he'll have me belly laughing. He's eight years old and he'll have my belly laugh. To me, I've always said, and not to be redundant because it's been quoted a million times, but I can't remember a time in my life I was laughing and having a bad time. Ross and I always had a good relationship.
Keller: Getting Ross to laugh was a challenge for you.
Nash: Yes, and I could get him to laugh. The thing was, I would badger guys who were higher up on the food chain than I was. I wasn't afraid to make fun of guys.
Keller: You were saying things he was thinking, but could never say.
Nash: He realized I didn't care. How can I care? I was getting beat every night. What were they going to do to me? Beat me more? You can't beat me more than every night. I remember when Griz (Grizzly Smith) came up to me night and said, "I want you to go over on (Brian) Pillman tonight. What's your finish?" I said, "F---in' lay on my back. I don't know. What is it?" (laughs) I didn't have a finish. He said, "How about a running shoulder block." I said, "How do you do it?" I didn't know what he was talking about. I hadn't won a match since I got there.
