Loss

Thing about Benoit though, is that if he didn't have charisma, he wouldn't be over. He knows how to work a crowd, he just does it in a totally different way than someone like The Rock.

Windham arrived in the summer of '89, when Hogan was out to make a movie and was only working a few house shows. When he did, they paired him Savage, I guess because it was a ready-made feud and needed less hype. Hogan kept on going strong in the last half of '89, but didn't really have a new, strong opponent. Savage was paired with Duggan, as you said, and Hogan was teasing a feud with Hennig, but it hadn't materialized yet. I know when they did the international tours that fall, Hogan/Savage headlined almost every show, and again, I think it's because it was the established feud. By the time they got back, Windham had quit. Barry apparently got involved with a very rich woman and kept trying to get out of wrestling because he had no need to do it anymore, but kept getting lured back. I don't know if he's still with her or not. It just proves again that the song "Hotel California" is about pro wrestling. You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave.

I'm sorry I just now saw this. I will add all of them to the next batch of wrestlers. I'll start a thread this weekend if I have time, and if not, I'll do it Monday. And yes, it's amazing how we disagree about everything at TSM and find a lot of common ground at NMB. Must be the navy blue color scheme.

Yes I do! And rock the fuck on! It's a TV master, so it's in perfect VQ as well.

"Not to mention our former tag team champions lost their titles after my good friend Christian was hit in the genitals with a hockey stick by a midget! I mean enough is enough!" -- Kurt Angle

Kurt Angle: Who would win the big match - Stone Cold Steve Austin and Booker T? Let's break it down, shall we? Stone Cold Steve Austin's the WWF champ, and Booker T's the WCW Champion. Stone Cold Steve Austin has the experience, Booker T is a little more temperate. Umm, Booker T definitely has the height advantage. Stone Cold has the width advantage, he's a little more stout. Steve Austin: Width? Kurt Angle: You're a little wider, that's all.

"I am your king, which is equivalent to your emperor or head ninja." -- Kurt Angle to Funaki, just after winning the KOTR tournament in 2000

"Lita is multi-orgasmic in a cosmic sort of way." -- Jerry Lawler

"I'd slap you, but I see God already beat me to it." -- Tazz to Jim Ross

"In true rock star fashion, I didn't sleep at all last night. So all I need is a bottle of Jack Daniels and some groupies, and I'll be just like David Lee Roth!" -- Chris Jericho

"An inspiration to million of women, children and idiots across the nation ..." -- Chris Jericho on Chyna

"If you're watching TV right now, I am your champion. If you like to sit at home and stuff potato chips in your mouth while watching the boob tube, I am your champion. If you're married to your remote control, you're married to Chris Jericho. If you like to channel surf, you're surfing with me! Hang ten, daddio!" -- Chris Jericho

Big Show: "Why is it he gets the title shot and I don't?" RVD: "Because you're a tool." Big Show: "I'm seven feet tall. I'm 500 lbs. I'm a giant!" RVD: "Okay, you're a giant tool."

"I can't be the only person who's ever wondered why Ric Flair wears his kneepads below his knees." -- Kevin Nash

"Ken Shamrock, you have a thousand holds, but I don't know how to get out of a single one of 'em. Just remember that it takes a good man to beat Mankind, but it doesn't take him very long. Have a nice day!" -- Mankind

Bob Backlund - It's good to see him finally get his due over the last few years as one of the best in the world in the late 70s and early 80s. Incredible mat wrestler who had a lot of excellent title defenses. Had a match with Takada in the UWF in '88 that I really need to see. I thought his WWF comeback and heel turn in 1994 was brilliantly done, and the match with Bret, along with the angle with Owen, remains one of my all-time favorite moments as a fan. Thrilled to see him at last get into the Observer Hall of Fame in 2004. Kenta Kobashi - Kawada was probably better, but Kobashi was still my favorite. Few have ever been able to get me as involved in their matches as Kenta Kobashi, and what's scary is that there's tons of his footage I still haven't even seen. Has some great offense and is fucking awesome at taking a beating. Probably would have been my favorite wrestler anywhere in the 1990s had I been following AJPW at that time. Owen Hart - I wish he could have won the world title at least once, because I think he could have carried the ball. His feud with Bret Hart in 1994 was fantastic for the most part, and he makes wrestling look so easy and effortless. Got really good really quick, suffered a knee injury and had to change his style, and still was every bit as good afterward. Obviously, the way his life ended was a tragedy. The Rock - I hated him until 2001 actually, but I grew to like him quite a bit during that time period. No one has ever resonated star quality quite like Rock. Very good and energetic in the ring and a huge draw during a boom period. Almost always willing to do what was right for business. Had a huge impact, despite not being around very long. Rey Misterio Jr - Probably the most amazing athlete and incredible high-flyer I've ever seen in wrestling. Just spectacular in that regard, and also a great wrestler. One of the few who's been able to adapt to the WWE style without sacrificing all that much. There are probably a million indy guys out there who've tried to copy him at various points that may be able to do spots he wasn't able to do, but Rey brought the whole package together by also being a great seller, and his (lack of) size has made him a superstar. If I were booking in WWE, I'd probably push him as one of the top two or three babyfaces at all times. The first time I saw him, I was blown away, and have been many times since then as well. Paul Heyman - I don't tend to care for his booking all that much, be it in WCW or during the Smackdown Six period in WWE, where he ran the gauntlet with so many constant good matches back-to-back that could have been stretched out over six months so they'd mean more. I do think he's one of the best interviews in wrestling, and I think he'd remain valuable in WWE in a consultant position. They need more wrestling minds putting together the product, and he's valuable in that regard, but I think he's his own worst enemy much of the time by not conducting himself as a professional. Harley Race - Truly one of the greats of his era, who could still hang in there long after he passed his prime. Took some wild bumps and did some great highspots for a US heavyweight in the 1970s, to say the least. Was capable of working with just about anyone, and while most think Hansen was Baba's best opponent, I tend to think Race was. I've never heard of a wrestler not respecting him. Konnan - Annoying as Hell at times, and not one of my favorites. Lazy in the ring and a headache backstage. That said, he has a great wrestling mind and an awesome eye for talent, and he's hilarious as a color commentator. He had a demographic in the palm of his hand in WCW and I don't think they ever capitalized on that like they could have. One of the biggest stars of his time in AAA. Eddy Guerrero - The best worker in WWE. The most over guy in WWE. I do hope the company will run with him again at some point in the near future. He busted his ass as champion and put a lot of pressure on himself to exceed expectations, and that was ultimately his undoing. The progress he's made in his personal life in the past four years is inspiring. Has been awesome for a long time, and has wrestled just about every style in just about every promotion and had great matches in all of them. His story is still being written, and I think when it's over, he will have had a HOF career. Barry Windham - From 1986 to 1989, I don't know that the US had a better worker. Women loved him, guys loved him, he was big and credible, he could bump like a pinball, he was a great interview, he had stamina, he had the look of a superstar and he was very over. If he ever dedicated himself totally to pro wrestling, it's scary to think about what he could have accomplished, considering everything he still accomplished when he didn't. Had a career renaissance of sorts in 1992-1993, forming a great tag team with Dustin Rhodes and having some great singles matches against guys like 2 Cold Scorpio and Ricky Steamboat. Unfortunately, that was cut short with a knee injury in a match against Flair at Beach Blast '93, and all of his attempted comebacks since then have been total failures. I wish he could have had a run against Hogan when he was there in '89, but Savage was too hot to stop and they didn't need to run with another heel. One of my favorites.

I like these topics, so I may start them for a while. Anyway, here's another batch of random wrestlers. Bob Backlund Kenta Kobashi Owen Hart The Rock Rey Misterio Jr Paul Heyman Harley Race Konnan Eddy Guerrero Barry Windham

Lex Luger & Barry Windham v Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard - 04/20/88 Fucking beautiful in every sense of the way. Anderson and Blanchard are detestable heels here, relentlessly giving Lex Luger a much-needed shitkicking and working their damndest to do the same to Barry Windham. Windham is a one-man face in peril/bump machine/character extraordinaire here, transforming from lovable whitebread babyface into hated heel ready to conquer the world in the span of 15 minutes. Luger's not exactly the best seller in the world, but he's more than competent here, and all the character motivations make sense with the angle and don't take away from the match in the slightest. It's quite fascinating to see Windham work so many different roles in one match -- as the face of the story changes, so does that of B. Dubbya. With all the complexities, the match needs to be grounded somewhere, and that's where Arn and Tully come in, working their roles just amazingly well from start to finish. They stooge early on, and amidst all the storyline development, still manage to squeeze TWO FIP sequences out of Barry Windham, along with one really well done one to put sympathy on Luger. This is all in the span of 15 minutes, if that tells you how action packed this match is. Windham gets upset because he has been getting his ass kicked for several minutes and needs to tag in, but Luger is KO'd on the outside and isn't there. JJ steps in and says, "I told you he wouldn't be there" and Ross and Schiavone immediately freak out about what that means. Windham ends up pulling Luger up on the apron, tagging him in and SUPLEXING HIM into the ring, leaving him as easy prey for Arn and Tully, who regain the tag titles in stylish fashion, parading around after the match like they've won fair and square. The babyfaces run them all off and the Midnight Rider decides to enter the lion's den alone and kick some ass as retribution, but the Horsemen jump him, steal his mask and get the Hell out of the arena in a limo, with Barry holding up four fingers outside the limo next to Dusty's mask. This was in 19 f'n 88! Probably the best non-MX/Fans match the NWA put out in 1988 with what was definitely my favorite angle of all time as part of the package. ****

Rudo's right, I'm afraid. I personally can't stand Cena, but he's the best chance WWE has of reversing their fortunes at this point. I would have said Jericho probably up until he turned face in 2004 and still ended up nowhere near the title picture, despite being incredibly over. The time away from the spotlight has been too long, and he, like Kurt Angle, is seen as yesterday's news at this point.

I was under the impression for a long time that Cornette booked the WWF in 1996, but he was merely one of many voices, with Vince still having total autonomy. A true rivalry with good shows would definitely develop with him controlling RAW and Heyman controlling SD, but he seems happy not having to travel and working in OVW, and I can't say I blame him.

I agree. There was some cool stuff you don't see every day in that match, but there was very little to pull it all together and make something coherent out of it. It was almost exhibition-like.

I'll go first: Randy Orton - He's been pushed as something special, but he's not really anything special at all. The absolute definition of "generic" in just about every way. Isn't horrible in the ring or horrible on the mic, but isn't really good in either area for that matter. He probably needs a heel turn and a jump to Smackdown after Mania to get him back on the right career path. Batista getting over has really screwed with him. Tazz - Was something special in ECW because of the way he was pushed, but hasn't really seen his potential realized in WWE. I think he would have gotten more over had he not arrived at the same time as Benoit and Guerrero. He's a decent announcer. That said, if I never saw a Tazz match or heard a Tazz interview, would I be missing anything? Chris Jericho - Always a good worker, but I've never liked him less than I have in the past six months. Probably should have been pushed hard and kept at that level, but his mic work and ring work has been in the dumps for a while now. Has a tendency to treat his opponents like jokes when they're doing serious promos, although that's probably more the fault of the writers than Jericho. Has had some really good matches in his time, but his career seems to be winding down, save a miracle. Not as special seeming as he used to be. Shane McMahon - Took incredible bumps that made the full-time workers look like shit and had main eventers selling for him like he was one of them when he clearly wasn't. I don't know that he was one of the worst examples of nepotism, since he could at least entertain a crowd, but he's up there. I'm glad he's not a central figure in TV storylines anymore. Antonio Inoki - The biggest star in the history of Japan who got to that level because he knew how to manipulate the populace. His popularity, from what I've read, is more on the level of Jordan or Ali than Hogan or Austin in the US. I've seen him in some excellent matches, but I've also seen him in some horrid ones. Seems to be on a witchhunt to ruin pro wrestling as we know it by putting pro wrestlers against shootfighters. Vader - The best big man in history. Incredible aura with some awesome high-flying offense and big bumping, especially for someone his size. Was working at a level above just about anyone in the US in the early 1990s, and has excelled in the US heavyweight style, the Japanese pro style and even the UWFI shoot-style. A verifiable legend. The Road Warriors - Easily the most over tag team of all time. Drew big money wherever they went for many years, and were huge stars on a regional, national and international level. Probably hung on too long, but that's par the course for that generation of wrestlers. Got over largely because of their size and dominance. They were reasonably athletic, but weren't really great workers because they didn't sell really at all. They'll never really be duplicated, although we've seen promoters try many times. Never really got the push alongside the Hogans and Warriors they should have gotten in the WWF, instead being confined to the tag division and not even getting a proper blowoff with Demolition. Tito Santana - A very good worker at his peak who had a memorable feud in the mid 1980s with Greg Valentine. Not a legend, but a guy who was a terrific upper-midcarder in his day. Ran the short-lived AWF in 1996, which was largely seen as a joke. Provided some great one-liners for Bobby Heenan that couldn't be said today because they'd offend pretty much everyone. I think it's fair to say he had a solid career. Jim Cornette - There's never been a better manager in wrestling history. The only true peer he has is Bobby Heenan. Awesome at spouting off long-winded, fast-paced rants against people he hates, both in and out of character. Has an unparalleled understanding of wrestling psychology and how to work a crowd. Wasn't just a typical manager, as he was usually involved in spots and sequences in Midnight Express matches that improved the match and served a purpose. It's sad that there's not really a market anymore for male managers.

Just random wrestlers or personalities involved in wrestling. Tell us what you think of them. This may be better than doing a thread about one wrestler in the long run. Randy Orton Tazz Chris Jericho Shane McMahon Antonio Inoki Vader The Road Warriors Tito Santana Jim Cornette Have at it!

I think devil's advocacy has a place, but when certain fans start doing it just for the sake of being different, as HTQ said, it's trolling. These are typically the people who say RVD was never over enough to be a main eventer, or HHH is the best worker in the company, or that Ric Flair held down everyone around him in the old NWA, or that Kevin Nash is great, or that Vince McMahon was in the right at Survivor Series '97, or that Chris Benoit was never really that good because he couldn't work the mic. If I thought those opinions had any validity or I thought the people saying them truly believed them, they wouldn't phase me at all, but message boarding is often more about ego than content.

"WCW is interested in Rena Mero, but can not touch her for 18 months." -- Michael K. Johnson III recapping Wrestling Observer Live for 1wrestling.com