gordi

Perhaps a better way to approach this is how lucha fans can help to make lucha more appealing or accessible for new fans. Other people have spelled out why Japanese wrestling has always been more appealing to hardcore fans than lucha; the one thing I would add is that when I first started branching out, and became interested in wrestling from other countries, much of the groundwork had already been done for Japan. You knew which tapes to get because of jdw's pimping posts, DVDVR, etc. It didn't matter whether it was All Japan, New Japan juniors or Joshi, all of the information was out there. Lucha these days is a million times more accessible in terms of how much content is online. Ten years ago there was very little lucha uploaded onto the internet. Where it's lacking is the narrative detail. I tried really hard when I was doing the Lucha History Lessons stuff to find more information about lucha history by doing rudimentary searches in Spanish. People will never be able to follow lucha the way they follow 90s All Japan through commercial tapes and season sets, and the Misawa narrative and Kawada narrative, but if they know as much as they can about Sangre Chicana (for example), who he was and what he was doing in the early 80s, then I think it makes a difference because it creates greater excitement than the name being thrown out there. Before I ever ordered a tape, I remember getting excited about constantly "hearing" the name Kawada or Misawa. You heard it so much that you felt like you were missing out on something by not being part of the tape trading circle. The only luchador that was build up that much was Santo and even then it wasn't comparable to Liger. This hasn't been a very articulate or well thought out post, but I think you have to give people a reason to be excited about lucha. Certainly part of the reason that Japanese wrestling is so popular among older fans like me is due to the hard work of people like jdw and, say Mike Campbell (among many others) who posted tons of reviews online and did in-depth posts and write-ups that gave us such a clear idea of where to start and a way to figure out, "OK, if I like this one... what else might float my boat?" "Where to start?" is often a crazy hard question with thing like wine, classical music, kung fu movies... anything where there is a lot of depth and richness to reward the effort of getting really into it also provides a dilemma of what the gateway should be and where to go next.When I was getting inot tape trading and so on, I think there was a lot more well-written guidance for Japanese wrestling than for Mexican or European wrestling, or even for territories, classics, and indies. At the time when I was watching just a ton of wresting a lot of it was from Japan, in large part because I had that guidance available. Now, of course, on this very site we have awesome stuff like your "Lucha history lessons" posts and the "Top 500 of the 90s" "NWA TNA 2003" and so on and so on... ...but for me at least... I just don't watch a ton of wrestling any more. Local live shows and the odd match online or maybe pull out an old DVD from time to time. Still.. I think that the jdws and Mike Campbells and so on have a lot to do with the "Why does puro get so muc love part of the original question here. As OJ puts it: Much of the groundwork had already been done

Thanks for chiming in, Delacroix! I generally feel like, "I can see why other people like it, but it isn't for me," tends to be the response of people who have genuinely put in at least a bit of effort, but didn't get into it anyway. I tend to find that response so much more legit than when people just dismiss something challenging that others have a passion for. I think that, if I had time to devote to getting into lucha, I might very well find that it is "for me." I love that Cibernetico match that El Felino won, for example... Maybe when my daughters have grown up...

I though we were playing checkers, damnit.

I can see how, for a lot of people, lucha might fall under a kind of general "This is gonna take some effort to get into" umbrella. Stuff like the "Captains fall" the "no tags needed" exception, the sudden and compete shifts in momentum, the three-falls structure and so on... it's just different enough from what a lot of folks are used to. All kinds of stuff falls under that "This is gonna take some effort to get into" umbrella. A lot of great stuff, a lot of not so great stuff. Ozu movies, Ghibli movies, Zappa, Mingus, Lovecraft, Jorge Luis Borges, Charles Ives, Hildegard of Bingen, Dada, Bauhaus, Bunraku, Corridos, Vepřové s knedlíky, Takoyaki... Sometimes the effort gets rewarded. Sometimes you end up disappointed. Faced with a "This is gonna take some effort to get into" type situation, there are three basic paths that can be taken, I think: 1) Make the effort. Might be rewarded, might not. Say it is rewarded. You then have the choice of either A - sharing what you found in a spirit of joy, or B - looking down your nose at people who haven't made the effort yet so that you can feel superior. 2) Put it on the back burner. Think, "I'll get to it when I have time, later on." Sometimes: A - You follow through, sometimes... B - Hey, who has that much time? 3) Just go, "That stuff sucks," so that you don't have to feel bad for not getting it. I think we've got representatives of all of the above types on this thread, which is pretty cool. I think the best discussion is between 1A and 2A types, in most cases. I think most people on these boards fall into type 1A and 2A w/r/t Pro Wrestling in all it's many forms. w/r/t lucha, I'm 1A in danger of becoming 1B just because I really am busy with kids and work and stuff.

As soon as I read that there was a trophy, I was like... "Uh oh!"

It's cool how you are using your TV to build all those matches and rivalries toward Starrcade without overdoing it. I sometimes wish WWE could remember how to do that: The Art of the Subtle Build.

I like how it was subtly foreshadowed on Superstars, with Jake's reluctant participation in the beat down of Big Fred.

Good Lord. Going with Los Brazos vs Los Villanos on your first card.. and it's not even the Main Event!!

And, in Kobe at the World Hall on the 23rd: Main Event: Hogan, Andre, and Inoki vs. The Lucha Libre Legends (Canek, Dos Caras, and Fishman) Co-Main Event: Fujinami, Kimura, and Koshinaka vs. The Freebirds ** break ** Sakaguchi and Hoshino vs. Atisanoe and Nagasaki The Strong Machines (nos. 1 through 4), and Big Machine vs. Ueda, Goto, Kim, Kim, and Hata Hashimoto, Chono, and Mutoh vs. The Barbarian, Haku, and Tonga JYD vs. Don Arakawa Yamada, Funaki, and Kosugi vs. Black Tiger, Black Cat, and David Morgan

Also: In Nagoya at the Aichi-ken Taiikukan on the 24th of January: Main Event: Hulk Hogan, Antonio Inoki and Junkyard Dog vs. Atisanoe, Kendo Nagasaki, and Umanosuke Ueda Special Singles Match: Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Dos Caras Special Tag Match: Andre the Giant and Keiichi Yamada vs, The Cobras *** Break *** Three Special Trios Matches: 1 - KImura, Koshinaka, and Hoshino vs. The Barbarian, Haku, and Tonga 2 - The Strong Machines (nos. 1, 2, and 3) vs. The Freebirds 3 - Sakaguchi, Strong Machine #4, and Big Machine vs. Canek, Fishman, and Black Cat Hashimoto and Funaki vs. Goto and Sano Chono, Mutoh, and Shunji Kosugi vs. Black Tiger, Akira Nogami, and Enrique Vera

Works for me!

NJPW is proud to announce the culminating show of the New Year Golden Series, to be held in Osaka at the Furitsu Taiiku Kaikan on January 26th: MAIN EVENT: Once-in-a-lifetime Mega Gauntlet match: Seven Machines: Strong Machine #1, Strong Machine #2, Strong Machine #3, Strong Machine #4, Big Machine, Hulk Machine, and Giant Machine versus The Fabulous Freebirds, The Cobras (George and Shunji Takano), Umanosuke Ueda, and Anoaro Atisanoe *** Break *** SPECIAL CO-MAIN EVENT: Inoki, Sakaguchi, and Hoshino vs. The Barbarian, Haku, and Tonga Fujinami, Kimura, and Koshinaka vs. Kim Su-Hong, Kim Duk, and Tatsutoshi Goto Kendo Nagasaki vs. Junkyard Dog The Young Lions (Mutoh, Hashimoto, and Chono) vs. The Lucha Libre Legends (Canek, Dos Caras, and Fishman) Yamada and Funaki vs. Black Tiger and Sano

I was going to suggest the same thing. He seems to be really good at this stuff.

I haven't been able to physically be online and type. I didn't like the fact that decisions were made before I could even chime in on them. To me, that makes things seem sneaky, especially when I told you that I was having the surgery and couldn't be available. This isn't my first foray into booking territories and it won't be my last. I can take responsibility for a lot of the discussion taking place while you were out. I can assure you that nobody meant to undermine you or go behind your back. I was just excited about ideas I had for re-working how NJPW was booked in 1985 and I was eager to get started on planning them out, so I pushed the idea of dropping pre-set touring schedule so that I could have more flexibility in booking. In my defense, I didn't know you were out having surgery until the discussion was already underway. Still, if you wanna blame anyone, blame me. I actually assumed that you would agree that it's more fun to have the freedom to book who we want.

Three posts in a row, but... I have a lot of thoughts on this topic :-) It's too bad that there's really nobody on the US Free Agent wire who is a big enough name to be used as an additional freelancer/touring attraction. It would be really cool if a US promoter could willingly put one of their "Big in Japan" names on the freelancer list to sweeten it up for us a little, but I know that is a *lot* to ask. I really like LowBlow's suggestion that we use the Japanese Free Agent wire by booking Free Agents on a tour by tour basis. For me, the best way to use Fujiwara, Takayama, Sayama, and co. would be to keep it special by only using them sparingly. I'd like to ask if we could please add Siva Afi, Gypsy Joe, Gama Singh, and Sweet Daddy Siki to my list of eleven names on the Japanese Free Agents list, and take them off the US Free agency wire. 15 Free Agents seems like a decent number. All of them except Singh worked Japan in the real world in 1985, and there is a long tradition of wrestlers from India working in Japan. If anyone - particularly Thunderlips - has suggestions re: Free Agents in Japan, they would be appreciated. I also think that the Japanese Free Agents should be available to US promoters, but only for a month at a time, and through arrangement with the Japanese promoters. All of this could be organized pretty easily by setting up a separate "Japanese Free Agency Wire" thread. If someone (Gypsy Joe, maybe) on the Japanese Free Agents list doesn't get booked for a year (or even, say, six months) they could be put on the US Free Agency wire. Small thing, but: I see that Shuni Takano (who worked Stampede in '83) is on the US Free Agents list. I'd like him removed, since he's on the New Japan roster now (And still available for bookings overseas if anyone needs him). If Thunderlips and LowBlow agree, that's my best suggestion.

To show my flexibility, i'd be willing to let New Japan have Brody for the entire year of 1985, as long as I can get something back in return How about in return you get first shot at which of the free agents you'd like to book, and when? Like, you can book your whole year of tours with them, then I just pick over what's left. I'd be OK with that as long as there's a gentleman's agreement that you won't book all of the best ones for every tour.

It's just my opinion, but to me it's less fun to be *too* realistic with how we run things. A certain amount of structure can absolutely help the creative juices to flow, but too much structure starts to cut them off. To put it another way: If I want to read about what actually happened in NJPW in 1985 - when they toured, who the visiting wrestlers were, when the they held their tournaments, who the champions were, and so on - well... I can already read that, and more, online. Ultimately, we end up like that Borges character, just re-writing Don Quixote word for word as our act of creativity. For me, having the NJPW 1985 roster plus some gaijin regulars as a starting point provides a good deal of structure. Respecting, more or less, the hierarchy as I understand it provides a strong foundation. Having some idea of what styles were worked in NJPW in the mid-80s provides a nice load bearing wall I can slowly and carefully try to re-model how I'd like to have seen it. Having, say, Brody come over on a pre-set schedule stimulates my creativity. How best to use him on each visit? Do I put him in there vs. Inoki right away, or hold off for a while? That sort of thing.... But, as I have said: I feel like having to follow the existing tour schedule and visiting wrestler schedule of 1985 NJPW would be *too much* structure for me, personally. It would be more realistic, sure, but It would keep me from doing things that I want to do. It seems like Thunderlips is comfortable working with more structure than me. I totally respect that. Even if a promotion kept *everything* else the same, there's a lot of creative work to be done in "just" booking the cards and deciding the results. But I am happy not to be too constricted by adherence to what actually happened. Baba and Inoki may still hate each other in this Universe, but their bookers - gordi and Thunderlips - seem to get along just fine. Who knows what might happen next?

Yikes! What a roster.

Here's a list of guys not currently on any roster (that I could find) who worked in Japan but not for AJPW or NJPW in 1985 (As far as I can tell): Akira Maeda Yoshiaki Fujiwara Nobuhiko Takada Satoru Sayama Kazuo Yamazaki Yoji Anjo Marty Jones Osamu Kido Mach Hayato Masami Soranaka Jack Snuka (Coco Samoa) Yukoh Miyato Hopefully someone more knowledgeable in this area can add to and/or revise this list. Another interesting question: Should we divide them up? Or use them as real Free Agents who can work for either of us at different times?

Thanks for the info re: free agents, hopefully we can build that up a little going forward. A smart solution to Fresh Faces and Free Agents might be to have Japan-exclusive Free Agents (guys like Fujiwara and Maeda who weren't working for AJPW or NJPW in 1985, but were working in Japan) and a J-exclusive draft for Japanese natives like Asai, Hase, and Kensuke. Won't be a ton of them, but there are only two Japanese promotions so it balances out American promoters wanting to use those guys could then book them through us, like we book gaijin visitors now.

Sorry for the long post, but: I want Thunderlips to know that I have had ZERO problems working with the other promoters in this project so far. Everyone has been generous, flexible, enthusiastic, co-operative... You really couldn't ask for a better group of guys to work with. I guess there's a slim chance that having both New Japan and All Japan regularly trying to book gaijin workers could end up making some folks' enthusiasm wear thin in a year or so, but I see absolutely no sign of that at this point. I don't think it will ever be a real issue. I really, really like how it adds an element of challenge and co-operation to the game. I think it also forces us (the Japanese promoters) to book the visiting wrestlers well, because using them well hopefully mans that there won't be any big problem booking them again in the future. If the US promoters HAVE TO send specific guys at specific times, there's nothing to prevent us from just jobbing them out or using them wrong. That being said: It would be helpful to know who the freelancers are going to be in 1985. If it's already been posted somewhere, apologize... but I couldn't find it. In December '84, you had Andre, Terry, Brody, Abdullah, Mascaras, and Hansen. Those guys are all huge names in Japan and true game-changers for booking shows, obviously. Knowing that they will be coming regularly would be a huge help. If it's the same guys (or a similar list) in 1985, that takes tons of pressure off of Thunderlips and I when it comes to booking tours and shows. In order to make it easier to book in the future for people sending wrestlers over and for people wanting to use guys who are on my roster, I set up a full schedule with specific dates for the year. I have to hope that won't conflict with the Freelance schedule. Also, Thunderlips and I will have to work out which freelancers will work for AJPW and which for NJPW. "Real life" 1985 booking (combined with friendly negotiation) might be the best way to do that. Anyway, in my opinion: It's like a security blanket knowing that I can count on Brody or Andre or Terry coming over at a certain time. On the other hand, knowing that I have to book around a large pre-set list of gaijin wrestlers coming over at pre-set dates is more like a straight-jacket. Again, I have had ZERO issues negotiating to bring over midcard guys. I've had ZERO issues negotiating to bring over Main Eventers and huge superstars. I haven't got exactly what I asked for every single time but literally everyone is reasonable about saying "no" and generally they also have a good plan B to offer me. The year hasn't even started yet and I have already had a couple of promoters offer to send guys over because they need to get them out of the territory for story-line reasons or to cool them down It's perfect. It benefits us both. It's a piece of cake! The Freelancers system should make sure that we (the Japanese promoters) are able to book big shows and tournaments with 100 percent confidence that a big name or two will be available to us at that time. Other than that, negotiating for the other gaijin visiting workers adds elements of challenge, fun, and co-operation to the game, and gives us more flexibility in our booking. The flexibility is really important: For example, assuming that Thunderlips is planning to follow the existing AJPW schedule, I was able to book my Tag Fest in February so that it won't conflict at all with AJPW's Tag League. I was able to to book an overseas tour where I won't need gaijin superstars on my cards during October, so that my booking hopefully won't interfere with the Champion's Carnival. "In real life" the IWGP Tag Team League and Real World Tag League were booked in opposition in Nov/Dec '85. I don't think that would be the best situation for this project, so I figure it's a good thing that it's possible to flex out of that.

I love the finish to that tag match, with the Terry Gordy fake-out.

Get well soon. I wanna say I am blown away by how easy it has been to work with everybody so far. You guys have not been merely willing to work together, but enthusiastic, generous, and helpful. The 1985 NJPW Tag Festival is going to be nuts. I'm already pretty close to having teams from every promotion take part in the first round. Thank you all.

That one always confuses me. Thanks for the clear explanation.

There Will Be Blood!