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Was it Host vs Host, or was it Host vs Call-In? John

Yep. The Ryder stuff has been out there as well. Suspect he could as easily pull stuff from places like the Sleaze Thread. "Inside Info" is widely available these days. John

That was one the thing I was trying to get across: PWG crowd = ECW Arena crowd ROH Spot Show crowd ≠ ECW Arena crowd At least to me. It's possible that other ROH spot show crowds are more Trekkie/ECW Arena-ish. But the interesting thing about the Richmond show is that when Cornette asked for a show of hands on how many were seeing their first ROH show, more than half went up. Richmond isn't terribly far south of from Manasas where I'd see my prior ROH show earlier this year. My group of friends out here in SoCal would think nothing of making that drive to see something we liked: we use to do TJ from Los Angeles, did Mexicalli once, up to Fresno and out to SanBerdo which all strike me as longer than Manasas --> Richmond. Despite the promotion pulling out of Manasas to now promote in Richmond, there wasn't a great deal of the old Manasas "regular" who made the trip. So I was seeing largely two different sets of crowds. For the most part, they acted the same and neither struck me as the ECW Arena / PWG type. John

Comparing Trekkies to RoH fans might be the most insulted I've felt on the internet in the last couple years. I've been to two ROH shows live, one in Manasas and one in Richmond. Granted, they're spot shows rather than "tv tapings" or "PPV". But the crowds were just wrestling crowds. The fans they draw to their locations for tapings and PPVs may be different, and more hardcore fans of promotion, and closer to the old ECW Arena Fan. But I also think that a lot of indies draw that for their base fans. PWG's fans out here in LA come across as very close to ECW Arena Fans, just on a smaller scale (building only holds around 200 or so). They're considerably more hardcore to the product than the two ROH spot shows. John

Didn't bail him out. The WWF had a talent sharing deal with New Japan, with New Japan paying the WWF for the talent sent over. The money in 1984 and 1985 was enough to save the WWF from going under... so the old saw goes. There also is the version that Vince was leveraged up to his neck for Wrestlemania I, and if it failed the company would have died. John

Loss: do you have the ability to edit the subject line of threads? If so, perhaps different subjects in the two Don't Warrant Thread threads. Perhaps by Date, maybe a new one every year? John

The Norweigan Food rant is one of the best ever. What would be really interesting is to know who planted the McDonalds vs Some Other Food analogy in Dave's head which he in turn thought was outstanding, lifted it and made it his own. That's not exactly something Dave comes up with out of thin air, and instead has a kernal planted (and sometimes a whole plant) in his head, waiting to come to bloom in the greatness of a spot like that. Wow. FWIW, I tend to think the old "The WWF would have gone out business without New Japan money because they were losing money hand over fist in 1984" is the newsletter equiv of Vince's "I took wrestling out of smoke filled arenas" meme. The further we get away from it, they less I believe things were ever that bad, not that the New Japan money was of an amount that Vince couldn't easily have raised through other means if needed. John

LeBron is in the same "industry" as Koshchek: Sports. The sports world has plenty of better heels who draw more money than Josh. Kobe is a better heel than Koshchek. How many people watched the Lakers-Celtic final, especially Game 7? John

Russo worked for Dunn, so it's a given that he would continue using the same terminology that was used back when Russo was a Super Genuis. John

Probably Gagne in 1958. Enrique Torres (LA World Champ after the war and before Baron Leone) died a couple of years ago. It's possible that someone holding something like the MWA World Title (which revolved around Orville Brown) is still alive. That title morphed into the NWA Title with Brown. It's possible that one of the holders of the Montreal version of the world title is still alive. Gino Garibaldi first held it in 1943 and only passed in 2008. Then again, Verne won that for the first time in 1953... so that blocks anyone winning it for the first time after him, and it morphed into the International title within the next 4-8 years. So we'd be trolling small world titles. It's very likely that there's at least one out there given how many different world titles there were before the NWA started cleaning things up (and even after). But not really a major one. It does show you how quickly we get to Nick and Bruno after Verne and Mad Dog pass. I didn't think of Nick or Bruno as all that old before putting that list above together, though I thought of them as "old" wrestlers when I started watching in 1986. Perhaps it's because they bowed out for good right around then, while we've watched guys like Flair and Hogan continue to get older in the ring. In a sense Nick and Bruno have been frozen in my head as the 50+ year old guys in 1986 rather than adding in another quarter century. John

It still is weak. The point is: It became "marketable" when Old Man Randy won the title. That's a sign of how shitty the division had become. Then "REALLY MARKETABLE" when Brock cleaned up the division. It still is thin. But all it takes is one man in a division to be able to market it. Randy proved that. It would have died again if Randy got his clock cleaned (which in a sense happened when he bailed on UFC for a year) and if Brock didn't come along. A lot of us like Cain and don't mind him beating up Brock. Whether the division remains REALLY MARKETABLE or even very marketable depends on how over he gets, what happens to Brock, and who else in the division steps up as a draw. But given how Brock carried a thin division to having title matches that drew big against not exactly GSP/Chuck/Randy level over opponents, there's a strong possibility that he as a Super Heavy would draw better than say Maynard-Edgar. I like good fights, don't care a great deal about charisma when watching a fight, and get annoyed by the need to ram down our throats "business". But I also am aware of business, and don't mind balancing out the bullshit hype in return for my good fights/fighters. Brock making good cash on top as a Super Heavy (if needed) is something I can deal with to underwrite the next watchable Clay Guida fight. It's a bit like Hollywood Hogan in WCW in 1996-97: for most of that period I could put up with his bullshit if it funded me being able to see some other decent workers. I'd prefer to see them in Japan or Mexico, but if they were going to work in he US, I'd just as soon see some of those undercard guys working decent matches in WCW than working garbage in ECW. Of course after 1997, thing went off the rails at some point. John

I don't think they have it now, but who knows where things are in a year or two if Brock can't beat Cain. An analogy would be that there was a long time when UFC didn't have the *heavyweights* to sustain the heayweight division. It frankly sucked for a long time there in the Arlovski / Sylvia / Mir era. It got "better" when Randy regained it, but that was a sign of how shitty it was: a guy who'd been hammered twice by the LHW champ then retired was able to fall out of bed and win the title, then defend it against the "number one contender". It was such a bad division that Brock came in and cleaned up on it with little experiance. That suddenly made it look like a "loaded" division. I don't think it would be hard to get big beefy guys to face Brock for the title. He wouldn't have to make 265 anymore, and probably would weigh in at 295 to 300+. Not saying it's a lock, but if Brock can't beat Cain, they have something that can be done with their biggest draw. They even have the built in bullshit excuse: "Brock's been having a tough time making 265 since the illness", leaving him a bit weaker than usual, and not having to cut weight will let him be the Real Brock. Then they can run freak shows at him. Just saying it's a potential business decision based on one specific guy they have that's at the upper limit of the 265 weight class, their best draw, and may just have run into someone he can't beat anytime soon. A smart organization figures out how to take that person and still make money off him. Totally agree with you on the comments about the featherweight division, and people dropping down into it. Edgar will move if Maynard turns out to be someone he can't beat, and if there are paydays down below. It usually takes two losses to the unbeatable foe before someone starts looking to move, especially if the second one just makes it clear you're blocked in that division. If Aldo and the division get over to even BJ Penn LW Champ levels, then you're going to see guys who can make that weight wanting to make a run. For whatever we want to say about BJ and Silva not being draws that GSP and the LHW division typically are, they and their opponents are making good money relative to a typical WEC guy was making and what an also-ran in a division makes. Folks move where they can become a contender and get the payday. John

Not sure why the WWF would work it internally. The round numbers are odd, but if someone pointed it out to Dave he'd say he was simply given round numbers, not the detailed numbers. John

I take that as a Jumbo Was Lazy style point of his: shifting his points after folks point out an error. There isn't any evidence that the *capacity* of the Silver Dome was worked for years by by the Lions, or that the NFL worked the attendance of Super Bowl XVI. It's not like it set a new record for the most people to watch a Super Bowl. One can look at the Super Dome to see how much the NFL gives a shit about cooking their attendance figures: IV - New Orleans - 80,562 VI - New Orleans - 81,023 IX - New Orleans - 80,997 XII - New Orleans - 75,583 XV - New Orleans - 76,135 XX - New Orleans - 73,818 XXIV - New Orleans - 72,919 XXXI - New Orleans - 72,301 XXXVI - New Orleans - 72,922 They've never given a shit about breaking the high of VI. Those were all wrapped around the one trip to Pontiac. They draw 8K less now, and don't care. And no... I don't buy everything the NFL serves up. John

I doubt either the Feather or Bantam will be going anywhere anytime soon. Their event schedule is packed next year. They always have issues with injuries and other things taking away promotable matches. Being able to roll out two more divisions of talent to fill cards, two more titles to move into spots to help sell different cards, and more places to create potential "stars" is something they'll roll with. It's more likely that the other weight classes will get added rather than those two go. Flyweight may be a long shot, but depends on how big UFC see itself getting and where the talent base comes from. Super Heavyweight is more likely if Cain ends up having Brock's number. Brock is a pretty ideal draw to open up the Super Heavy division, and it's not likely the UFC wants to waste him. John

http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...7260;p=1#000002 The source is Dave Meltzer's firsthand conversation with Zane Bresloff about the situation, so this person might say 'WHAT IF DAEV IS LYEING?' The problem with the number that Dave uses as an alternative is that it doesn't line up with the photos. There are numbers for what the Lions and the NFL (for Super Bowl XVI) put into the building when it was sold out in that era. The Super Bowl did a claimed attendance of 81,270. The Lions and the NFL don't have people on the field during games. The WWF did. I commented in one of the various WC thread on WMIII: 78K is a bad number for how many were in the building. Just not possible at all. I also think that Dave has reported several times that all the tickets were sold. So it's not like there were several thousand empty seats not seen in the various photos of the even. Its possible that Dave's earlier reporting on the place being "sold out" was incorrect, and what the 78K represents is the WWF's "paid". Or it's possible that the WWF gave away a lot of tickets to folks locally to get the event, and the 78K represents the number of tickets that meant something to the WWF in terms of attendance. But 78K in the building is low. John

My recollection is that Dave was pretty non-religious. May have changed in the past decade. John

Wow... that's quite bad. Was there any payoff for Steph being in bed, such as in there with someone other than Trip? John

Wait... what?!?! John

Probably missing some: 02/26/26 Verne Gagne (AWA) 09/14/29 Mad Dog Vachon (AWA) 07/11/30 The Destroyer (WWA / AWA) 12/06/34 Nick Bockwinkel (AWA) 10/06/35 Bruno Sammartini (WWWF) 03/16/37 Mark Lewin (WWA) 02/03/41 Dory Funk Jr (NWA) 02/01/42 Masa Saito (AWA) 08/25/42 Ivan Koloff (WWWF) 11/22/42 Pedro Morales (WWA / WWWF) 02/20/43 Antonio Inoki (NWA / UWA / WWF) 03/15/43 Iron Sheik (WWF) 04/11/43 Harley Race (NWA) 06/07/43 Billy Graham (WWWF) 04/03/44 Tiger Jeet Singh (NWF / UWA) 06/30/44 Terry Funk (NWA) 03/30/45 Ron Garvin (NWA) 08/24/45 Vince McMahon (WWF) 10/12/45 Dusty Rhodes (NWA) 01/18/46 Perro Aguayo (UWA) 02/25/48 Ric Flair (NWA / WCW / WWF) 08/27/48 Sgt Slaughter (WWF) 08/14/49 Bob Backlund (WWF) 08/29/49 Stan Hansen (AWA / Triple Crown) 11/29/49 Jerry Lawler (AWA) Could mix in Mil for holding the "Mil Title" forever. Perro has held several other versions of the world titles, though I don't think any have quite the cha-ching of the UWA Title. On Flair's DOB, I could swear that Dave pointed out at some point that 1949 was a work and the 1948 was real... unless I'm misremembering it and it was 1950 being a work and 1949 being real. Anyway, the lack of NWA until the 40s is a bit jarring. The group older than Dory has passed pretty quickly in the last half decade or so. John

WWE will offer free merchandise outside poll stations This might annoy people even more. It's a good way to get WWE Fans out to vote: swag. John

Victory for the little guys: WEC to merge with UFC on January 1 John

Dave's on a roll. Second double-issue week in the last three weeks. John

What dirty laundry isn't out there already? The issues of steroids, death and how the WWE uses women have already wrapped around Linda's neck to help sink her. John

I fear going back to see if there's a response to my last post. It's would be getting close to Global Warming Denier level. John