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Agreed. What's funny is that when we reconsider stuff, we are then tossed off as "contrarian" and as stir shit on long held consensus. John

The "bag on Sayama" is hardly a new thing, nor would even a "movez" component of it be new or DVDVR based. Jewett was ripping on Sayama in the *90s* for all the shit that Dylan and Bix are pointing out. The only difference is that Dylan and Bix have watched a hell of a lot more Sayama matches by now than Frank watched back in the 90s. But he'd seen enough in one of those Best of Sayama sets to rake him over the coals. It's not like any of the folks currently are anymore detailed in what they've written in criticism, because we all can recall how detailed Frank could be in ripping the living shit out of a worker. It's also not like Frank's criticism were because Frank hated "movez", since folk probably can recall Frank liked moves and was an early target of the moves backlash. There probably are some posters on the 80s project who are watching and/or writing about Sayama for the first time. But I'm willing to bet that longtimers like Dylan and Bix would say that Sayama bashing on these very issues has been around for a long time, and that they've been a part of folks rethinking Sayama over the past decade. John

I stand corrected: http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/148...;-The-Rock.html This whole thing of Nash talking shit for years, and then Rock fucking him over is great. This is Rock: he fucked with hardly anyone, and pretty much did whatever the promotion wanted compared to all the other assholes who played games. But even Rock thought Nash was a jackass, and fuck him over before Nash could pull shit with him. John

Irv Muchnick with a WO-4.com column? John

There's quite a bit more in the newsletter, an from all the items people pull out of WO-Live, it looks like the show is a major outlet for his updates as well. There's very little "breaking" in wrestling like there was back in the late 90s and early 00s. There really isn't the need for Updates to drive attention to the product. If something semi major happens, he'll mention the news in an update. And he does live updates of the PPV of wrestling and MMA shows. But most of analysis of it goes to the show and the newsletter. Can't say that's a mistake given where wrestling is at the moment. But it also means that the front page really doesn't do anything to either well represent what Dave does or sell the WON strongly. Again, not really a mistake... John

Weren't the items from Todd and Bryan & Dave in line with what the earlier posted in the thread jokingly predicted? I would have though Beast would have slinked off again for a few months before running in again. John

Historically, that clause might have a tough time surviving a case. Given various decisions by the Roberts Court, it would stand a far higher chance of surviving now. Very pro-corporate/employer, especially in contracts. John

Our Wargames out here in LA in 1988 was Dusty & Lex & RWs & Ellering vs Flair & Barry & Arn & Tully & JJ. JJ worked Wargames through the whole Bash '88 tour. He looked odd in there, but Ellering by the point looked useless as well from a hardcore fan standpoint... though for regular wrestling fans he was a big muscled up guy, so obviously more believable to the fans. Don't have much memories of JJ in the match, though he didn't stand out as being as bad as say Dusty or Ellering in the match. He didn't have quiet the heat that a Cornette or a Heenan had at the time where the fans wanted to see him get his ass kicked. Corny was on the card in the handicap Fants vs MX+Corny match that was going around the horn, and that was an entirely different level of heat on a manager. John

Wow... that is pretty daunting. John

Wasn't remotely close to Panada. Wasn't as long, and Megane didn't fund WAR and SWS for all that long at the high of a level. Salaries in Japan for most natives also is smaller than what TNA is tossing around. Other expenses aren't off the charts other than flying over gaijin talent and putting them up. I doubt those expenses are close to what TNA runs up even in a year of the different perks that different wrestlers have. On the other hand, *at the time* and relative to NJ and AJ, it was a crapload of money. The other two were profitable. SWS was a money sink, and would have been dead within a year without Megane funding. John

WTF? Can someone transcribe what he's saying and the context, because that paraphrase is a big WTF. That doesn't sound like anything they could test for (since it doesn't matter whether it's with or away from the talent). And drinking in with the talent doesn't sound like something that would be something she shouldn't be doing. So... WTF? One wishes there are times when Dave would just get out with it. John

Pretty much everyone was invited to join SWS the way they were throwing money around. Yeah... it would have killed his career. He probably wouldn't have porked out like Fuyuki, but it would have been a dead end. He probably would have stuck with Tenryu in the SWS split and moved onto WAR. Played some role in the NJ-WAR feud, but it's not likely that Choshu would have booked his NJ Peers (Mutoh, Chono, Hash, Sasaki, Kosh, Hase) to put him over as they were booked (with the exception of Mutoh and Sasaki at the time) to help put over Tenryu. From there, as WAR faded... it probably would have been pretty ugly. John

I actually like how quickly Bryan catches himself on Bam Bam. John

In the back of my head I recall contracts similar to that in boxing getting challenged and I *think* getting voided. In other words, Don King having an auto-rollover contract with a fighter as long as he kept the title. UFC is a bit different since it's a promotion rather than manager, but King wore various hats that included promoter and manager (such as using his son to "manage" some of the fighters while he promoted). But my recollection on prior fighters whose contracts were "up" or were in "dispute" (such as Randy), there usually was a set number of fights for the top guys. John

I did watch the interview. I'm not sold on the Heyman vs Current Strikeforce Management comp as meaning anymore than Heyman vs Current TNA Management. Those are low standards, and being better than a low standard doesn't mean that you'll be a success. John

Do you think Paul really is the man to help Strikeforce? What does his "creativity" bring to the table? Not exactly arguing with you, but more curious on what Paul brings to the table to elevate Strikeforce to the next level? Now that would be interesting. Brock is the biggest draw, and stealing him would make things interesting. But he is just one fighter (2-3 PPVs a year). Strikeforce would need to steal several stars, because we've seen UFC has done quite well even when their heavyweight division blows. In turn, Strikeforce would need to capitalize on having Brock... and I'm not sure that they can. John

Paul found a money mark. John

Busting on Foley is old at this point. I remember catching shit in the Torch after KOTR HitC. John

The Shea Stadium commentary was pretty fun. John

Coke, riods and countless other drugs do wonders to an already fucked up heart. John

Maybe I'm remembering the wrong guy. Bix - was Rose that young fan from the late 90s who didn't seem quite all there? John

That shuts me down. Well... I wrote a lot more than just that sentence. But Paul is like Lano or Shannon Rose or other noted Wrestling Liars. One always takes a step back on something he says and think a bit about it. In this case, it just doesn't add up unless there was something in the WON back in 2005 about it, even if not explicitly identifying Paul. I think Paul is busting his hump to be relevant, and being The Most Knowledgable Pro Wrestling Guy About MMA seems to be what he's trying to put a lot of stock into. John

So to be fair to Dave he wasn't selling for Heyman. Understood. More than that, he completely squashed it: the read-between-the-lines aspect is that *Paul* would have told Dave that back in 2004 if it were true. John

I recall this piece: Anti-Semitism in wrestling: Paul Heyman's story John

How do you not believe him, John? Because he's Paul. "I've told you to assume everything I say is a lie and to verify it. Seek the truth and verify." -Paul Heyman Seriously... if Paul said it was light outside, I'd take a look to check. He's a proven habitual liar. As much as I dislike Russo *more* than Heyman, I tend to think Paul's been in it so long that lying just comes natural and easy to him. I would be interested if Dave wrote it back when TUF first went on, or within a few months. If Dave wrote it now... or three years later, it means less to me. Not saying Dave would spin something, just that Dave could hear something later and take it as the gospel. Examples: * Savage bangs Steph We have a whole thread on that were I tend to think a fair number of us agree that the timeline is off, and the comments of Vince for a good number of years *after* Randy left were very positive towards Randy. It's a new thing, and whether Vince believes it now or not doesn't make it the truth. There are folks in the country who think Obama is a Nazi... so? * Stone Cold Superstar At some point while Austin got over as a super hot babyface, Superstar Graham thought "that could have been me in 1978!" And from that he created a myth that he pitched a babyface turn to Vince Sr. back then, that it could have made a ton of money off it, and he got very depressed and deeper into drugs when it didn't happen. It's bullshit. Utter, complete bullshit. Dave buys it. To the point that he now says he heard about it in the 80s. I've pointed people to read Dave's classic long interview with Graham in 1992 and try to figure out how something that cornerstone to the end of Graham's career (and his depression and drug taking) didn't come up, either asked by Dave as he "knew" about it, or Graham tossing it out because it was so important to him. I don't know why Dave buys it, but he does... and now it's been late written into history. So when Dave pulls a new story out of the air 5+ years after the fact, I tend to see if it fits into the timeline and what he was writing at the time. There are times when he sits on something he knows for confidentiality reasons: Brody flushing the dope down the toilet... though it's always hard to figure out why he didn't print that in 1988 after Brody died because the other person involved in the story was also obviously dead as well. But he does that on occassion, such as some of the stuff with Pillman. But on TUF... I'd be more interested in what Dave wrote at the time than what Heyman says now. If there's an item back then along the lines of: "The WWE could have vetod TUF being on the netowork, and some people inside the WWE strongly recommended to Vince that he do so. Kevin Dunn sided with Vince that UFC isn't a competitor and it wasn't an issue to fight Spike over." That gives credibility to the issue, and the "some people" and "Kevin Dunn" comments are ones that we use to only half-jokingly point to as indicating they came from Paul or Ross. I'm not sure how much I buy that. TUF debuted in January 2005. In March 2005 the WWE decided not to continue with Spike, and the next month announced their return to USA. I think if we go back and look through the second half of 2004 (and perhaps earlier), there was a lot of talk about the WWE's next contract after the one with Spike expired in Sep 2005. The possibility of going back to USA was out there, but I seem to remember that the WWE also wanted multiple parties involved which would allow them to get the best deal. One buyer means its a buyer market, two or more means the WWE has a better chance of getting a good deal. It would be hard to imagine that anyone in the WWE would suggest to spiking TUF at the same time when the WWE would also potentially want Spike as one of the bidders for the next Raw contract. Perhaps... but even if Heyman suggested it, *at the time* it wouldn't have made a great deal of sense to risk the WWE's potential relationship with Spike. Also... I'm not sold all of us thought that the House was going to be a knockout in ratings or in getting over UFC. The concept on paper didn't look like a 100% lock, and I wonder if Dave even at the time wrote it up as a 100% lock. Instead, the season turned out to be "good television" (for the potential fanbase though some of us thought some of it suck such as all the Leban bullshit) and the Finals turned into a Grand Slam with Diego (selling "skilled fighter" to the new fans) and Forest-Bonnar (selling kick ass fighting). Mix in the show doing a good job of getting across Chuck-Randy (not off the charts like Tito-Shammy, but good establishing them as "stars" you'd like to see fight)... the show really was far above anyone's expectations. So... Heyman strikes me as being Stone Cold Superstar in trying to put himself over for cred with his new audience: MMA fans. Honestly... I'm not sure if I'd buy much of anything Heyman says about MMA from a historical standpoint. No doubt he's a fan now, and he's actively trying to follow it and be up to speed on it. But... he's a carny wrestling guy. John